Answer is there is no answer at the moment.
CIG responds to piracy question in todays Reverse the Verse
- Thread starter Montoya
- Start date
So basically they're saying that the plan hasn't changed - or rather, that they still remain mostly plan-less - and everyone's making a big deal over nothing. I suppose I'm alright with that. Problem solved, i guess.
As far as SG: Origins goes, that trailer was not exactly awe-inspiring. We'll see how the series turns out, but tbh, i'd rather have more SG: Universe.
As far as SG: Origins goes, that trailer was not exactly awe-inspiring. We'll see how the series turns out, but tbh, i'd rather have more SG: Universe.
I believe the input control will be controlled by the insurance deductible costs, expedited costs and how long it takes to recover a blown up/ stole ship.
IE if it takes you a month to replace your Idris or Javelin and 100 million UEC or a billion UEC to reduce that timer to a week both of those will slow down the availability of these ships as well as make people far more careful with them in the verse.
Even stealing it doesn't give you the ship for long and having the costs of a new Hull ID tag being a discount over buying the ship outright would not proliferate the ship base any faster then through standard means. In fact I imagine it will be far more challenging.
In the end of the day as the game ages and the player population becomes increasingly wealthy even with the current known money sinks we will end up with large fleet battles of capital ships because why not. Especially if they continue to add capital ship protectors like the HammerHead.
IE if it takes you a month to replace your Idris or Javelin and 100 million UEC or a billion UEC to reduce that timer to a week both of those will slow down the availability of these ships as well as make people far more careful with them in the verse.
Even stealing it doesn't give you the ship for long and having the costs of a new Hull ID tag being a discount over buying the ship outright would not proliferate the ship base any faster then through standard means. In fact I imagine it will be far more challenging.
In the end of the day as the game ages and the player population becomes increasingly wealthy even with the current known money sinks we will end up with large fleet battles of capital ships because why not. Especially if they continue to add capital ship protectors like the HammerHead.
It sounds like things have worked their way out, thankfully. It did show two very important facts though. The first is that CIG is thinking ahead. They are very carefully approaching a very old MMO problem and look to be one of the few developers in history that are trying to solve it. The second is that this problem will absolutely be in the game if it is allowed to exist.
The problem is the same in every single MMO with both a grind and a PVP element. It is the disproportional risk between the PVP'r and the grinder. Let's play out a scenario. Player one, the grinder, starts playing SC. They begin with the basic package and grind their way up to a Hull E and enough cash to fill it up with cargo. They hire a full compliment of NPC and PC escorts and off they go. Finally, after a month of grinding 4-6 hours a day (read: work) they are actually looking at real profit. Next step, pixel millionaire.
Player 2, on the other hand, has been bombing around fking with people since day 1. They have found a group of like minded people and take great pleasure in wrecking people's day. They hop on a few times a week, pick fights, blow up ships, talk trash in general, and feast on the tears of those less equipped. You know, "PVP". Usually, they group up in packs of 10-20 and it's enough to take down some fairly decent ships and their escorts despite the fact that most are still running around in cheap ships.
Player 2, and his group, stumble upon player 1 and his fully loaded Hull E. They hit the jackpot. In short order, they dispatch the escort, disable the ship, and off they go. Player 2 now has a fully loaded Hull E and this is where the division begins.
The first group of players wants to permanently keep the Hull. Congratulations, you now have a really expensive ship. They didn't have to work for it. They never had to grind a single minute for it. They just had to cruise around in space with a pile of their pirate buddies and BOOM, instant freighter. The money now just rolls in with zero effort.
The second group though, understands that this is by no means fair. Likely they have seen similar scenarios play out in other MMO's and are fed up with it. Why should they grind for weeks or months only to have some group of aimless randoms achieve the same level by thievery? Why take ALL the risk when the attackers have no risk at all? Why invest all that time when there is an easier way?
I have seen this played out in a ton of MMOs. It leads to a world where nobody grinds. Nobody is willing to put in the work because so many are just sitting around waiting to take it without any time invested and no chance of a different outcome. It leads to a game where all the "PVP'rs" just stand around waiting for a single farmer to come rolling by with loot. Next thing you know, the game is tagged with "ded game is ded" repeated over and over in chat and forums.
Why does this happen? It happens because every game has a "meta". If there is one loadout that performs the best, all the players will have it. If there is a shortcut, all the players will take it. If there is a way to achieve results without the work, every last player will follow that path. If this is allowed to happen, it will happen constantly and consistently. The game MUST balance risk from both sides of the coin. If they allow for an easy way, it will quickly become the only way. Keeping a player's hard earned ship for free with minimal effort IS NOT BALANCED. No matter what you say or how hard you try to convince the world otherwise, it isn't.
Now don't get me wrong. I love the idea of being able to keep what you steal. It may sound like I am against it, but I'm not. I'm against what people are screaming for. So many of these arguments are, at their core, for taking a ship and it instantly becoming your property. That CANNOT be the case. It's not just the colossally bad economics of it. It's not just the damage to CIG's ability to monetize the game. It's not just the balance or the salt it will create.
It's the player base. This game won't exist without grinders. No game with a player economy does. It requires people that are willing to put in the work. If you make them assume all the risk in addition to all the work, this game will be dead before it even has a chance to begin. I have seen it happen time and time again with other MMO's. You can argue against it all you want, but the historical proof is undeniable. The grinders will leave the game and it will be over.
That's because those "PVP'rs" that argue so adamantly that they are PVP'rs and want the pirate life aren't actually pvp players. They just want to prey on the weak. In every single game that caters to them, they scream about how "you wrecked pvp by catering to the careB's!". Yet when a game caters to those "PVP'rs", and they find themselves the only ones on the server, the game is instantly dead and lifeless. That's because when the easy, risk free money is gone, when the "pvp'rs" are forced to either fight someone that can fight back or grind it themselves, they quit.
They quit because they never wanted to grind. They quit because they never wanted a challenge in pvp (despite all their arguments to the contrary). They never wanted a fair fight and just wanted their easy loot. When faced with actual oposition, they run. When faced with actual work, they log off. This happens EVERY TIME I have seen a game cater to that type of player.
So it makes me happy that CIG is approaching this dynamic with the care and caution it deserves. Should it be impossible to keep a stolen ship? No, absolutely not. There should be a way to keep it. However, that way should be just as difficult as it was to grind it out to begin with. It should have risks and require work. Otherwise, this game is done for.
TLDR: Quit trying to get free shit...
P.S. ... and ffs, quit trying to pretend duping an Idris wouldn't throw the universe into chaos. CIG aims for realism and in real life, the Idris equivalent ships (and even tiny fishing boats) have a name. You mean to tell me that two U.S.S. Missouri's floating around wouldn't be a big deal? You think that one of them wouldn't get found out as a fake? Large warships are KNOWN. They have a specific name. They have a specific captain. They aren't just milled out like auroras, every one is a big deal. So, yea. Once again, quit trying to argue for free shit. If you want one, put in the work.
P.S.S: Shit, I made another long winded post again... I really have to learn how to just shit post and walk away....
The problem is the same in every single MMO with both a grind and a PVP element. It is the disproportional risk between the PVP'r and the grinder. Let's play out a scenario. Player one, the grinder, starts playing SC. They begin with the basic package and grind their way up to a Hull E and enough cash to fill it up with cargo. They hire a full compliment of NPC and PC escorts and off they go. Finally, after a month of grinding 4-6 hours a day (read: work) they are actually looking at real profit. Next step, pixel millionaire.
Player 2, on the other hand, has been bombing around fking with people since day 1. They have found a group of like minded people and take great pleasure in wrecking people's day. They hop on a few times a week, pick fights, blow up ships, talk trash in general, and feast on the tears of those less equipped. You know, "PVP". Usually, they group up in packs of 10-20 and it's enough to take down some fairly decent ships and their escorts despite the fact that most are still running around in cheap ships.
Player 2, and his group, stumble upon player 1 and his fully loaded Hull E. They hit the jackpot. In short order, they dispatch the escort, disable the ship, and off they go. Player 2 now has a fully loaded Hull E and this is where the division begins.
The first group of players wants to permanently keep the Hull. Congratulations, you now have a really expensive ship. They didn't have to work for it. They never had to grind a single minute for it. They just had to cruise around in space with a pile of their pirate buddies and BOOM, instant freighter. The money now just rolls in with zero effort.
The second group though, understands that this is by no means fair. Likely they have seen similar scenarios play out in other MMO's and are fed up with it. Why should they grind for weeks or months only to have some group of aimless randoms achieve the same level by thievery? Why take ALL the risk when the attackers have no risk at all? Why invest all that time when there is an easier way?
I have seen this played out in a ton of MMOs. It leads to a world where nobody grinds. Nobody is willing to put in the work because so many are just sitting around waiting to take it without any time invested and no chance of a different outcome. It leads to a game where all the "PVP'rs" just stand around waiting for a single farmer to come rolling by with loot. Next thing you know, the game is tagged with "ded game is ded" repeated over and over in chat and forums.
Why does this happen? It happens because every game has a "meta". If there is one loadout that performs the best, all the players will have it. If there is a shortcut, all the players will take it. If there is a way to achieve results without the work, every last player will follow that path. If this is allowed to happen, it will happen constantly and consistently. The game MUST balance risk from both sides of the coin. If they allow for an easy way, it will quickly become the only way. Keeping a player's hard earned ship for free with minimal effort IS NOT BALANCED. No matter what you say or how hard you try to convince the world otherwise, it isn't.
Now don't get me wrong. I love the idea of being able to keep what you steal. It may sound like I am against it, but I'm not. I'm against what people are screaming for. So many of these arguments are, at their core, for taking a ship and it instantly becoming your property. That CANNOT be the case. It's not just the colossally bad economics of it. It's not just the damage to CIG's ability to monetize the game. It's not just the balance or the salt it will create.
It's the player base. This game won't exist without grinders. No game with a player economy does. It requires people that are willing to put in the work. If you make them assume all the risk in addition to all the work, this game will be dead before it even has a chance to begin. I have seen it happen time and time again with other MMO's. You can argue against it all you want, but the historical proof is undeniable. The grinders will leave the game and it will be over.
That's because those "PVP'rs" that argue so adamantly that they are PVP'rs and want the pirate life aren't actually pvp players. They just want to prey on the weak. In every single game that caters to them, they scream about how "you wrecked pvp by catering to the careB's!". Yet when a game caters to those "PVP'rs", and they find themselves the only ones on the server, the game is instantly dead and lifeless. That's because when the easy, risk free money is gone, when the "pvp'rs" are forced to either fight someone that can fight back or grind it themselves, they quit.
They quit because they never wanted to grind. They quit because they never wanted a challenge in pvp (despite all their arguments to the contrary). They never wanted a fair fight and just wanted their easy loot. When faced with actual oposition, they run. When faced with actual work, they log off. This happens EVERY TIME I have seen a game cater to that type of player.
So it makes me happy that CIG is approaching this dynamic with the care and caution it deserves. Should it be impossible to keep a stolen ship? No, absolutely not. There should be a way to keep it. However, that way should be just as difficult as it was to grind it out to begin with. It should have risks and require work. Otherwise, this game is done for.
TLDR: Quit trying to get free shit...
P.S. ... and ffs, quit trying to pretend duping an Idris wouldn't throw the universe into chaos. CIG aims for realism and in real life, the Idris equivalent ships (and even tiny fishing boats) have a name. You mean to tell me that two U.S.S. Missouri's floating around wouldn't be a big deal? You think that one of them wouldn't get found out as a fake? Large warships are KNOWN. They have a specific name. They have a specific captain. They aren't just milled out like auroras, every one is a big deal. So, yea. Once again, quit trying to argue for free shit. If you want one, put in the work.
P.S.S: Shit, I made another long winded post again... I really have to learn how to just shit post and walk away....
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Start by derailing or just flat-out ignoring the subject. I've got yeaaaaars of experience.
EDIT - actually this is a classic example.
EDIT - EDIT - Not a classic example of walking away though, I've returned and edited this twice now.
Great post.
We all show up for a game because of it's concept, look, or hype. We stay because of the challenge. It doesn't bother me at all that CIG doesn't have this figured out, yet. And if they did, why would they let us know, at this point?
Keep developing, dropping morsels/packages, and new features. Ignore the noise. Make (most) of the quarterly goals, and this game will be groundbreaking.
For those of us who've spent years Backing or $ beyond the base package, that's exactly what we want.
So eventually, Cap ships will become as prevalent as Auroras? "Our Javelins shall blot out the Sun!"
I don't know how to respond to this. :confused:
You misspelled this word. One more edit please.
Btw, another great and informative video, Boss. Stargate, eh? I loved that show.
Takeiteasy
Admiral
It should work like real life, you have a stolen ship and are always at risk of being "stopped" by police, yes you might have paid for legit tags or license plates to avoid 90% of trouble even if pulled over for a broken tail light. Then you break down and a "nice" police car stops to assist and looks a bit closer, maybe he knows the engine you have wasn't released the year on the plates, he looks at the VIN number and it doesn't match, busted, impounded, car gone.
Should work in anything that needs a deeper look at the ID of a car such as crashes, crimes, heists, security scans, restricted access to areas, background checks on you. Any of those should warrant the vehicle either attacked, you arrested or the ship seized.
Then you go pay the mega bucks and have the "jumping through hoops" to keep a ship, you can probably get a new VIN number but you have to get there first, you pay a fortune and I hope it takes a good while, no 20 minute wait, a week should be good especially on larger ships, you know they put ID in a lot of places these days, even in the glass of your side mirrors can have them.
I just hope if one day you do manage to attack, subdue and takeover an Idris that you need to get it out of there sharpish, if you manage it you're instantly wanted and need to get to a different system, no self respecting pirate would touch that damn thing so you have a cool off period where you hide it in a hangar for a while, then you can finally and carefully get it to the ID fraudster where you pay him a million UEC and leave the ship there for a week.
Finally you have something that can fool even a reasonably intelligent scanner system such as UEE jump points, patrols, landing bays on most station(I imagine) but not full on scrutiny.
You still have to be careful.
Should work in anything that needs a deeper look at the ID of a car such as crashes, crimes, heists, security scans, restricted access to areas, background checks on you. Any of those should warrant the vehicle either attacked, you arrested or the ship seized.
Then you go pay the mega bucks and have the "jumping through hoops" to keep a ship, you can probably get a new VIN number but you have to get there first, you pay a fortune and I hope it takes a good while, no 20 minute wait, a week should be good especially on larger ships, you know they put ID in a lot of places these days, even in the glass of your side mirrors can have them.
I just hope if one day you do manage to attack, subdue and takeover an Idris that you need to get it out of there sharpish, if you manage it you're instantly wanted and need to get to a different system, no self respecting pirate would touch that damn thing so you have a cool off period where you hide it in a hangar for a while, then you can finally and carefully get it to the ID fraudster where you pay him a million UEC and leave the ship there for a week.
Finally you have something that can fool even a reasonably intelligent scanner system such as UEE jump points, patrols, landing bays on most station(I imagine) but not full on scrutiny.
You still have to be careful.
Interesting you mentioned Stargate Origins. The last I remember seeing anything about that game was probably 10 years ago. I had a press pass at the 12 hours of Sebring race that year and saw Frankie Munez driving a formula 2 car with Stargate Worlds advertisements all over it. I was pretty excited for the game and then nothing ever came of it. It appears it's still and MGM IP so its not like they sold the rights to anyone it looks like. It will be fun to check it out.
In regard to a freshly stolen ship, what are those Science Ships like the Reliant SEN going to be good for if they can't use their suite of sensors to follow a relatively recent Engine Trail? I don't think there are many places stolen ships - or even non-stolen ships for that matter - will really be able to hide from a correctly equipped advocacy/bounty hunter/other party if you know where it was and what direction it was going in.
Takeiteasy
Admiral
Space is huge so it can't be that hard to hide, I can't wait to actually see the game when this kind of gameplay is implemented.
We could all steal Montoyas ships then give him them back and say we "recovered" them and get money from him. And if doesn't we steal them again.
I can imagine it now:
"Marco!"
"Damn it guys."
"Marco!"
"Again?"
"Marco!"
*sighs* "Polo."