[Discussion] Fleet Command - Deaf People and FCing.

[NKato]

So, I got into a discussion on Mumble with Barthanes about fleet commanding as a Deaf guy. He believes that I am unsuited for such a position because of the risks that come with my hearing loss, while I feel that it's too early to be making such determinations, because it is an untested ground for even a hearing person.

So I bring this discussion to you, TESTies.

What would be the best way to communicate, for a deaf FC? And do you personally believe that Deaf people should or should not be FCs?

We have various methods: text, in-game quick-messages (which is a thing CIG has confirmed to be working on), the Combat Information Center (the lynchpin of the networked battlefield capability that CIG has mentioned), and then there's Mumble (which I can use to send out orders, but receiving verbal information is a no-go).

For some context, Barthanes claims that he has experience in the Navy, so I'm going to take him at face value on that. And I understand that deaf people in a command position would have a lag in being able to receive information and issue instructions in response to that information; the question is how do we reduce that lag?

Ultimately, I would like this discussion to remain respectful, so let's proceed with that in mind.

Let me hear your thoughts.

TL;DR, Barthanes did a [CONCERN] conversation with me.

 

[Barthanes]

I would like to say that this conversation took place with him stating that he was open to honest comments.

So don't ban me.

 

[NKato]

I would like to say that this conversation took place with him stating that he was open to honest comments.

So don't ban me.

This.

Edit: It bears noting that Barthanes is thinking about TEST, and the necessity of smooth communication for TEST-centric operations. I agree with his line of thinking in general, although our two perspectives are different.

 

[PaulEPeptide]

I think short, concise text messages are more than enough for someone to organize operations. In-game messages would be preferable over mumble unless you have dual monitors, but i think short bulletins with orders could actually work better than voice.

 

[NKato]

One of the things I've been touching upon is whether or not an operation will require a high communications tempo, and if it does, I would probably be a bad fit for that.

 

[o-BHG-o]

I would say that with good in game mechanics a commander should be able to issue orders without the need for direct voice comms. Games like battlefield, with quick commands and spotting show it would be possible to feed info to a commander. I think it would be a lot harder for the FC in this position but good planning, strategy and a comprehensive CIC system should be all that is needed. Hopefully we'll see it in the PU.

RP groups may forgo mumble for the in game comms, something I presume will be able to be jammed (fingers crossed). Then we'll need to rely on other means.

 

[Montoya]

It really depends on the situation.

Not every fleet op is going to be critical and require split second decision changes and command issues.

If a group of 20 pilots are attacking a convoy and you are FC'ing from a distance, I think there is plenty of time to write down what you need to say. The problem is that the pilots in the furball are not going to have time to read messages if they are in the middle of an engagement.

 

[Halvix]

It's really difficult to say what will work best to reduce communications lag until we know exactly how communications will be implemented within Star Citizen. All we really have to go on now is what we've seen in Arena Commander and what has been talked about in development. In game mechanics for calling out targets, quick menu's for issuing orders and such are probably going to be added, but we will see.

In Arena Commander there are actually very few players that even know how to use the in-game chat, let alone pay attention to it. Of course Arena Commander isn't the best example because now it is mostly focused on dog fighting and racing, not fleet action and large scale combat. Dog fighting is very fast paced and things happen in the blink of an eye, where as fleet combat takes time and strategy. In game chat will probably be fine for fleet commanding, but not so in dog fights or smaller skirmishes that are over quickly.

Some ideas would maybe use some form of speech to text program or have somebody relaying information from voice to text. The larger ships would have a communications officer most likely anyways, this would give them some extra duties and could be an interesting RP opportunity.

 

[PhosphorusForFun]

I think it's safe to say that the smaller the engagement, the more time-sensitive information/command relay becomes. I would agree that deaf people are *probably* unsuitable for a position where it needs to be "Do this" and that gets done right then and there, but I see no problem with deaf people in a situation such as "Test Bomber wing, commence fire when Test Fighter wings 1 and 2 have cleared the opposing strike craft."

And at the same time, we still haven't seen how flow of battle will proceed anyhow.

 

[PaulEPeptide]

If a group of 20 pilots are attacking a convoy and you are FC'ing from a distance, I think there is plenty of time to write down what you need to say. The problem is that the pilots in the furball are not going to have time to read messages if they are in the middle of an engagement.

Yea, I'm really curious to see what kinds of C&C mechanics they built for some of the ships. Like someone already said, battlefield makes it really easy to set squad commands that show up directly on your HUD. I would imagine that CIG would work to implement something along these lines for commanders to distribute orders.

 

[Montoya]

Yea, I'm really curious to see what kinds of C&C mechanics they built for some of the ships. Like someone already said, battlefield makes it really easy to set squad commands that show up directly on your HUD. I would imagine that CIG would work to implement something along these lines for commanders to distribute orders.

It could be that C&C can simply select primary and secondary targets, which then show up on the wings radar, that would work fine for Nkato.

 

[NKato]

It's really difficult to say what will work best to reduce communications lag until we know exactly how communications will be implemented within Star Citizen. All we really have to go on now is what we've seen in Arena Commander and what has been talked about in development. In game mechanics for calling out targets, quick menu's for issuing orders and such are probably going to be added, but we will see.

In Arena Commander there are actually very few players that even know how to use the in-game chat, let alone pay attention to it. Of course Arena Commander isn't the best example because now it is mostly focused on dog fighting and racing, not fleet action and large scale combat. Dog fighting is very fast paced and things happen in the blink of an eye, where as fleet combat takes time and strategy. In game chat will probably be fine for fleet commanding, but not so in dog fights or smaller skirmishes that are over quickly.

Some ideas would maybe use some form of speech to text program or have somebody relaying information from voice to text.

STT has been notoriously unreliable in a combat environment. My experience has shown this to be the case, so it's unlikely we'll have anything usable for Star Citizen in this regard.

The larger ships would have a communications officer most likely anyways, this would give them some extra duties and could be an interesting RP opportunity.

This is the approach I am thinking of. Comm officers for my ops. The thing is, we'll need to test it out, and see what kind of arrangements will work.

 

[NKato]

It could be that C&C can simply select primary and secondary targets, which then show up on the wings radar, that would work fine for Nkato.

When we start getting the initial implementation of the CIC module, we'll need to leverage TEST's numbers to push CIG to deliver the best iteration possible so that there is no gap in coverage for a hearing FC and a deaf FC.

That means testing the everliving fuck out of it, and giving CIG a mountain of feedback reports.

 

[Black Sunder]

Frankly I'd love to see NKato call a battle from the bridge of a capital ship where he isn't in danger of dying straight off and leaving us leaderless. Most engagements and ops don't require up to the second instant voice orders because the plan is laid out before hand or people just know what to do. For small combat ops then I would say no because as others have said, you need that back and forth communication on the fly to decide the battle.

Even if someone who was deaf and calling a battle was targeted and died it does not leave the group without a leader. 2nd in command will step up, 3rd etc so it isn't a [CONCERN] for me for the med to large ops if a deaf person is in command. For the small ops, I'm sorry to say I'd want someone who can instantly take in data and spit out a solution to the situation.

 

[Halvix]

Text to Speech and Speech to Text have seen improvements in the last few years... It could be a few years more until SC is finally released at this point. Perhaps the programs will be better and more reliable by then.

 

[NKato]

Frankly I'd love to see NKato call a battle from the bridge of a capital ship where he isn't in danger of dying straight off and leaving us leaderless. Most engagements and ops don't require up to the second instant voice orders because the plan is laid out before hand or people just know what to do. For small combat ops then I would say no because as others have said, you need that back and forth communication on the fly to decide the battle.

Even if someone who was deaf and calling a battle was targeted and died it does not leave the group without a leader. 2nd in command will step up, 3rd etc so it isn't a [CONCERN] for me for the med to large ops if a deaf person is in command. For the small ops, I'm sorry to say I'd want someone who can instantly take in data and spit out a solution to the situation.

I have a general development plan in mind for the PU, in regards to building myself up as a FC. It goes something like this:

1. Outfit my Starfarer Gemini for C&C (if possible), or use my Constellation Aquila (confirmed to support CIC module), and run 6 to 12-man fighter squads on PvE missions in the UEE. This will allow me to plan things out, and assign roles ahead of the engagement. It will also allow me to begin developing a fleet/field command journal for future adaptation into a brochure/guidebook for future FCs.
   
   
   
2. After Step 1 has been satisfied sufficiently to my expectations, I will "graduate" to an Idris (possibly an Idris-M or Idris-P supplied by either Karab or TEST), and begin developing two separate journals - one that relates to carrier operations, and the other relating to fleet command. I hope to produce a useful brochure from both journals for TEST's general consumption.
   
   
   
3. If we acquire a Persistent Warship like a Pegasus Escort Carrier, I would like to become part of its command rotation, and take advantage of it to further develop my carrier ops/fleet command journals. However, I consider a persistent warship command to be a "joint command", and that there shouldn't be less than two executive officers available at any time, and an arrangement in place to help streamline operations.

What do you think?

 

[Lonestar the Kilrathi]

ugh, yeah, we could talk about radio discipline and stuff but i'm thinking like any game that uses mumble or similar voip chat SC is going to suffer the old WoW problem of too many people in vent and too much chatter and cross-talk to really have anything but the semblance of order.

for guild raiding we'd all exercise silence except for the raid lead unless directly questioned, but pick-up-groups, no way. chaos.
but, the best PUG raid i ever did was with a deaf raid leader. everyone was all upset he was going to lead, but he basically just had macro'd everything and used Raid Alerts to communicate with the group. it was actually pretty fantastic, because you can always tell when someone isn't listening or have music on or whatever because they don't hear raid calls and die because of it. But the alerts flashed on the screen and made a Gong so everyone saw every raid call every single time. it was a very smooth raid, and it was because we were all forced to buck the traditional voip setup and opt for a clever alternative.

i would imagine that part of fleet command is going to be issuing clear orders and way points and all of that over ships systems. So pilots will hopefully get orders issued to them in ways other than voip. i doubt CIG is going to concede that every one will just use mumble and not bother with issuing fleet commands in other ways than 3rd party apps or even just by voice.

If they do tie all of the ships together as a fleet, i know they talked about this at the PTU town hall, the ships would share systems data, so a fleet commander on an idris would see where a player combatant is, what he's doing, and the status of his ship all visually. orders could be given to disengage, attack, change battlegroups, fly escort all by issuing a command and having that command appear in within the game environment in an unmistakable way.

really we'll have to wait and see what kind of fleet tools they are making, but i'm thinking having a deaf fleet commander might actually be a good thing because they'll rely more on issuing commands properly rather than relying on mumble because it's easier.

 

[Barthanes]

It looks like the peeps are going to bat for Nkato, and if you guys don't see a problem with him commanding despite his weakness (it is one), then i don't see why i should have a problem with it either. Congrats Nkato, you changed my mind. Don't f#*@k it up.

 

[NKato]

Congrats Nkato, you changed my mind. Don't f#*@k it up.

I'll be doing my best, sir.

 

[Halvix]

This is TEST Squadron! We give everybody a chance to f#*@k it up at least once. Just not with the Kingship we're planning to capture...