Missiles as a standoff weapon in 3.19.1
Anyone else miss genuine stealth gameplay? I do, and here are some of the results of trying to find The Way of the Sneaky Bastard.
With the 3.19.1 patch the repair prices seem to have gone up a fair bit. During one bounty mission I lost situational awareness and bounced my Sabre off the ground, losing a wing. The repair bill was 11,000+ auec for a mission that paid 7500. This led me back to the idea of stealth gameplay, which used to exist before Yogi's team homogenized all the ship components. Cannons used to reach further than the ship's signature which made for technical but very satisfying PvE for me.
ALAS, it 'tis no more (at least for the time being). There is another option however, one that is less technical, reliable or satisfying but still possible. That is using missiles as standoff weapons *before* closing to gun range; the "Alpha Strike" concept. For this to work, it is assumed that the launch can't be detected or countermeasures will be deployed. I don't have a good understanding of NPC pilot behaviour regarding countermeasures so it seemed best to not be noticed in the first place.
So the initial criteria:
1) missile must reach further than the signature of the launching ship
2) launching ship must be able to detect the target first
3) missile needs to be able to at least soft-kill the target
So, 'smaller' a ship with 'big' missiles vs relatively larger targets. The Eclipse is the definition of this in game.
Initial tests on this with several ships went very poorly; I was detected and engaged almost every time, and often outside of the ranges that would be expected from the EM and IR signature. So with a bit of help we started scanning every ship we could find to create a table of signature values. It turns out that the cross section value on almost every ship in game (often hugely!) exceeds its EM and IR value. None of the values changed dynamically either, the reading was the same at max detection range as at 1km. We did notice some minor differences in the radar performance, i.e. Civilian size 1 class A vs Military size 1 class A, but not enough testing was carried out to quantify those with certainty.
There are only a few ships where the missile range exceeds the signature, and that just barely. The Sabre is one of those, of course, and the missile of choice there is the Arrester. EM and IR values aside, the Sabre has a CS of 9600 and the Arrester tracks on CS with a lock range of 10,000m. The Gladiator is another, and we'll come back to it shortly. The Talons were acquired specifically to evaluate this particular characteristic, but failed with 11,200 CS, meaning they were always detected before getting into range. Being detected is not the same as being locked, however, and more on that later.
On the second requirement, the target ship needs to have a larger signature than the launching ship. This turned out to be fairly common at MRT levels and above. At VLRT and LRT mission levels the differences are not huge; the M50, the Gladius and the Eclipse commonly flown by NPC's making the whole idea somewhat difficult to carry out.
The third requirement is much more dynamic, in the sense that there is always some RNG going on for how much damage the target will take from a missile, even a direct hit. For fighter sized targets, the most reliable method seems to be firing two at a time. Sometimes in atmosphere one hit would be enough for the target to lose control and crash into the ground but it was not to be counted on.
Where the Plan Came Together though, might be surprising. The Gladiator has a CS of 13000, and comes stock with the Size 5 Stalker torpedoes which have a range of 15000m and do over 17000 damage. In MRT missions this ship has proven to absolutely own anything the bounty target was flying. Generally 1 torpedo is enough for the Cutlass Black and below; a MIS, Warden or Valkyrie get 2 as an opener. Then you turn and fly away to the next mission :) The Gladiator has also been brought into HRT's; It works well except for missions where the Reclaimer is the target. That ship will soak up 6-8 of the size 5 torpedoes, making it necessary to leave the area and restock.
Putting the Gladiator through its paces though, revealed something else about this style of gameplay. There seems to be an 'aggro zone' of roughly 8 to 10 km from the NPC's. Closer than that they would automatically lock/engage, further out they seem to not pay attention, at least not immediately. It proved to be just as easy to get into a shoot position with the Shrike, the Gladiator and the 325a as it was with the Sabre. Outside that aggro range I could lock the target without being locked back, scan it, queue up the missiles and let fly without them taking notice. Let's do some quick examples:
a) Gladiator (CS 13000) vs Black (CS 20000): the Anvil ship can move right to the edge of torpedo range and still have 2km of buffer zone before the Black can detect it. If none of the escorts are closer, it will explode and they will never know you were there.
b) 325a (CS 13000) vs Gladius (CS 10000): The 325a can move to contact, lock and queue missiles without being engaged. Normally this results in the mission kill, but escorts will then aggro as the CS of the 325a is well within detection range.
c) 325a vs M50 (CS 5000-ish?): In this matchup there was never time to do a CS scan or shoot missiles. By the time the 325a detected the M50 it had already aggro'd and was attacking, turning the encounter into a gunfight.
In point of fact I consider the 325a to be a superb low level mission ship. It offers SPEED, an interior for getting out of the seat to deal with food/water and injuries, a small bay for loot (or possibly spare missiles), the ability to carry 6 size 3 missiles, and sufficient dps to easily clean up what the missiles don't kill. It is a flexible ship that may be able to reach into MRT's with this style of gameplay as long as the pilot doesn't mind restocking for every mission.
The Talons, on the other hand, will be melted. The base Talon is agile but fragile, and does not bring anything special to the above gameplay. The Shrike carries an insane amount of size 3 missiles, but gun DPS is extremely low and it has a very difficult time surviving and fighting out of a bad situation. It's the definition of hit and run.
The Gladius that is probably already in your hanger is another working choice, with a low CS and up to 4 size 3 missiles.
Finally, to answer the question of "Why not just use the Eclipse?" One big reason is cost, both of the ship and of the Size 9 torpedoes. An Arrestor is about 150 auec, a Stalker about 600, but the Argos IX is 3571. At payout levels of 4000, 5000 and 7500 for the lower missions, the Eclipse turns income into fireworks shows. And if you miss that first shot.. Other reasons include the Eclipse being a one-trick pony. It can't do anything else at all, let alone do it well. It may be the perfect tool to chain HRT/VHRT missions now, but most other ships in the game are more flexible. And exotic ships come with exotic repair bills. The overwhelming reason for me though, is to learn how the game systems work. Find the interesting niches, find the broken stuff, stumble across the cool-but-unintended/undocumented/unnoticed gameplay.
tl:dr - it's possible to do 'Eclipse style' gameplay without owning one, make a profit and have fun at the same time.
Postscript - the existing placeholder for sensors and signatures is biased toward forcing everyone into the brawling type fight.
Edited Title on suggestion of another reader.
Anyone else miss genuine stealth gameplay? I do, and here are some of the results of trying to find The Way of the Sneaky Bastard.
With the 3.19.1 patch the repair prices seem to have gone up a fair bit. During one bounty mission I lost situational awareness and bounced my Sabre off the ground, losing a wing. The repair bill was 11,000+ auec for a mission that paid 7500. This led me back to the idea of stealth gameplay, which used to exist before Yogi's team homogenized all the ship components. Cannons used to reach further than the ship's signature which made for technical but very satisfying PvE for me.
ALAS, it 'tis no more (at least for the time being). There is another option however, one that is less technical, reliable or satisfying but still possible. That is using missiles as standoff weapons *before* closing to gun range; the "Alpha Strike" concept. For this to work, it is assumed that the launch can't be detected or countermeasures will be deployed. I don't have a good understanding of NPC pilot behaviour regarding countermeasures so it seemed best to not be noticed in the first place.
So the initial criteria:
1) missile must reach further than the signature of the launching ship
2) launching ship must be able to detect the target first
3) missile needs to be able to at least soft-kill the target
So, 'smaller' a ship with 'big' missiles vs relatively larger targets. The Eclipse is the definition of this in game.
Initial tests on this with several ships went very poorly; I was detected and engaged almost every time, and often outside of the ranges that would be expected from the EM and IR signature. So with a bit of help we started scanning every ship we could find to create a table of signature values. It turns out that the cross section value on almost every ship in game (often hugely!) exceeds its EM and IR value. None of the values changed dynamically either, the reading was the same at max detection range as at 1km. We did notice some minor differences in the radar performance, i.e. Civilian size 1 class A vs Military size 1 class A, but not enough testing was carried out to quantify those with certainty.
There are only a few ships where the missile range exceeds the signature, and that just barely. The Sabre is one of those, of course, and the missile of choice there is the Arrester. EM and IR values aside, the Sabre has a CS of 9600 and the Arrester tracks on CS with a lock range of 10,000m. The Gladiator is another, and we'll come back to it shortly. The Talons were acquired specifically to evaluate this particular characteristic, but failed with 11,200 CS, meaning they were always detected before getting into range. Being detected is not the same as being locked, however, and more on that later.
On the second requirement, the target ship needs to have a larger signature than the launching ship. This turned out to be fairly common at MRT levels and above. At VLRT and LRT mission levels the differences are not huge; the M50, the Gladius and the Eclipse commonly flown by NPC's making the whole idea somewhat difficult to carry out.
The third requirement is much more dynamic, in the sense that there is always some RNG going on for how much damage the target will take from a missile, even a direct hit. For fighter sized targets, the most reliable method seems to be firing two at a time. Sometimes in atmosphere one hit would be enough for the target to lose control and crash into the ground but it was not to be counted on.
Where the Plan Came Together though, might be surprising. The Gladiator has a CS of 13000, and comes stock with the Size 5 Stalker torpedoes which have a range of 15000m and do over 17000 damage. In MRT missions this ship has proven to absolutely own anything the bounty target was flying. Generally 1 torpedo is enough for the Cutlass Black and below; a MIS, Warden or Valkyrie get 2 as an opener. Then you turn and fly away to the next mission :) The Gladiator has also been brought into HRT's; It works well except for missions where the Reclaimer is the target. That ship will soak up 6-8 of the size 5 torpedoes, making it necessary to leave the area and restock.
Putting the Gladiator through its paces though, revealed something else about this style of gameplay. There seems to be an 'aggro zone' of roughly 8 to 10 km from the NPC's. Closer than that they would automatically lock/engage, further out they seem to not pay attention, at least not immediately. It proved to be just as easy to get into a shoot position with the Shrike, the Gladiator and the 325a as it was with the Sabre. Outside that aggro range I could lock the target without being locked back, scan it, queue up the missiles and let fly without them taking notice. Let's do some quick examples:
a) Gladiator (CS 13000) vs Black (CS 20000): the Anvil ship can move right to the edge of torpedo range and still have 2km of buffer zone before the Black can detect it. If none of the escorts are closer, it will explode and they will never know you were there.
b) 325a (CS 13000) vs Gladius (CS 10000): The 325a can move to contact, lock and queue missiles without being engaged. Normally this results in the mission kill, but escorts will then aggro as the CS of the 325a is well within detection range.
c) 325a vs M50 (CS 5000-ish?): In this matchup there was never time to do a CS scan or shoot missiles. By the time the 325a detected the M50 it had already aggro'd and was attacking, turning the encounter into a gunfight.
In point of fact I consider the 325a to be a superb low level mission ship. It offers SPEED, an interior for getting out of the seat to deal with food/water and injuries, a small bay for loot (or possibly spare missiles), the ability to carry 6 size 3 missiles, and sufficient dps to easily clean up what the missiles don't kill. It is a flexible ship that may be able to reach into MRT's with this style of gameplay as long as the pilot doesn't mind restocking for every mission.
The Talons, on the other hand, will be melted. The base Talon is agile but fragile, and does not bring anything special to the above gameplay. The Shrike carries an insane amount of size 3 missiles, but gun DPS is extremely low and it has a very difficult time surviving and fighting out of a bad situation. It's the definition of hit and run.
The Gladius that is probably already in your hanger is another working choice, with a low CS and up to 4 size 3 missiles.
Finally, to answer the question of "Why not just use the Eclipse?" One big reason is cost, both of the ship and of the Size 9 torpedoes. An Arrestor is about 150 auec, a Stalker about 600, but the Argos IX is 3571. At payout levels of 4000, 5000 and 7500 for the lower missions, the Eclipse turns income into fireworks shows. And if you miss that first shot.. Other reasons include the Eclipse being a one-trick pony. It can't do anything else at all, let alone do it well. It may be the perfect tool to chain HRT/VHRT missions now, but most other ships in the game are more flexible. And exotic ships come with exotic repair bills. The overwhelming reason for me though, is to learn how the game systems work. Find the interesting niches, find the broken stuff, stumble across the cool-but-unintended/undocumented/unnoticed gameplay.
tl:dr - it's possible to do 'Eclipse style' gameplay without owning one, make a profit and have fun at the same time.
Postscript - the existing placeholder for sensors and signatures is biased toward forcing everyone into the brawling type fight.
Edited Title on suggestion of another reader.
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