Dual Hotas---HELP

Sep 28, 2017
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Deroth1
#21
If interested in experimenting with dual stick then I highly recommend picking up Thrustmaster t16000.m, the last time I checked it was cheaper to buy them individually than in the twin pack.
You won't find sticks with better hall sensors for less than $200.
They're not perfect but at that price it doesn't hurt terribly to pick up one to two to experiment with too determine whether you like dual stick.
 

Mich Angel

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ARCHANGEL_666
#23
Seem you got a lot a good advice already but non have straighten out the abbreviation so here goes ; -)

HOTAS - Hand On Throttle And Stick = Throttle and (joy)stick

HOSAS - Hand On Stick And Stick = Dual (joy)stick

And I agree to what's been said already, that the T16000 is the best choice for first time use of dual stick and it give best value for the buck and is easiest to set up.
 

Blind Owl

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BlindOwl
#24
You should, I know you're worried about the flight model changes but even that'll be tweaked over time and different ships will still have different flight profiles so it'll be good to get used to things changing.
Gaaaaaa, why do you have to go making sense? I'm in the military, I'm not used to hearing sense. ;)
 
Sep 27, 2016
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DasWoelfchen
#26
watched a video today on youtube that discussed 3.5 flight characteristics getting overhauled. super!
There is a whole citcon panel on youtube about that topic.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V056GFJrnKo


There is also one thing i like to add while i think that dual stick, with or without throttle, are probably the most immersive thing you can get its not always the best (best in terms of combat) input device. I actually prefer Dual sticks on small non gimbaled ships while i like HoSaM on larger gimbaled ones.
Gladius / Sabre - > fixed -> dual sticks
Freelancer, Starfarer -> gimbal -> Hosam

"Just for flying around": dual

Also if you decide later on to go the "cheap way" with t16000m you might want to add voice attack and/or elcato stream deck and/or some other stuff to enhance your input devices
 

Shadow Reaper

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Shadow Reaper
#27
Seem you got a lot a good advice already but non have straighten out the abbreviation so here goes ; -)

HOTAS - Hand On Throttle And Stick = Throttle and (joy)stick

HOSAS - Hand On Stick And Stick = Dual (joy)stick

And I agree to what's been said already, that the T16000 is the best choice for first time use of dual stick and it give best value for the buck and is easiest to set up.
If you're not shooting a gimbal, what are the advantages of a dual stick over a stick and throttle? My concern with the 16000s is the buttons are all off the stick itself, and I really like the X56 throttle's button placements.
 

Mich Angel

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ARCHANGEL_666
#29
If you're not shooting a gimbal, what are the advantages of a dual stick over a stick and throttle? My concern with the 16000s is the buttons are all off the stick itself, and I really like the X56 throttle's button placements.
Well first of it's flight handle is much more exact and instant with dual stick better control than stick and throttle.

First Video is Stick and throttle.... HOTAS

Secon Video is Dual stick... HOSAS

First and second image is HOSAS Vaduul and Pirate swarm gimbals locked.

Apply that flight accuracy from dual stick in to a dogfight and I think you can see where it might give you a upper hand

Third image is my setup, I use both of them dependent on situation I am in as in HOSAS for tricky fast maneuvering flight or HOTAS for laid back cruising.


HOTAS


HOSAS


19 Wave Vaduul swarm with HOSAS all on my own.


19 Wave Pirate swarm HOSAS all on my own.



My setup for the moment..

 
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Mich Angel

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ARCHANGEL_666
#30
Here is some more resent Pirate and Vanduul result.

This is pirate swarm using Sabre with gimbals locked. HOSAS



This is vaduul swarm using Gladius Valiant with gimbals locked. HOSAS




Then of cause it's a matter of practice and what you are us to but to be fair when I started using dual stick in SC, I only flown a lot of flight sims and dogfighting only using HOTAS.

So getting use to the HOSAS was a transaction but a lot more easy than I ever could imagine it to be.

Now once I got the hang of it there is no going back for me, HOSAS for tricky and tight flight then HOTAS for relaxed and joy flights.

We all like different and as some said you can use any stick throttle combo you see fit.

I personally went with the gear that had the best accuracy and lowest latency that my wallet could allow ;)

And I didn't buy all at once I started with HOTAS setup then added the second stick as soon as I could and so on....

I would say anyone can give you advice on this in abundance but it is all from their (my) perspective and that might not be same from yours.

in the end you have to figure out what works best for you, make it right for you what works not what someone say to you works.

So I can only show you what works for me but over all most come to similar solution, maybe using different brands but still the close to same.

CHEERS!
 
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Shadow Reaper

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Shadow Reaper
#31
I appreciate all this, and congrats on the excellent racing!, but I still want to understand the advantage. Are you somehow both flying normal controls and straifing at the same time? You're obviously getting higher accelerations with twin sticks. What do you use the twin sticks for?

And if you're locking the gimbals on the Sabre, why not just replace them with fixed, bigger guns?
 

Mich Angel

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ARCHANGEL_666
#32
I appreciate all this, and congrats on the excellent racing!, but I still want to understand the advantage. Are you somehow both flying normal controls and straifing at the same time? You're obviously getting higher accelerations with twin sticks. What do you use the twin sticks for?

And if you're locking the gimbals on the Sabre, why not just replace them with fixed, bigger guns?
Thank you : -)

Well I should said fixed guns for that what it I use most but some time I use locked gimbals, depend a bit on what ship it is.
I only change guns on my primary dogfighter but not always, other ships I fly mostly stock guns.

How I use the dual stick combined with throttle..
Okay let see on my right stick I have jaw left/right nose, pitch up/down nose and role on the twist, then fire guns, missile, decouple, look back and targeting on top keys.
On left stick I have strafe froward/back push, left/right strafe push left/right and twist left strafe up and twist right strafe down, then on keys it's lock missile, afterburner, boost, landing gear etc..

Then on my throttle stick is the main thrust forward momentum combined with boost and afterburner when needed, that I use when casual flight.
Soon as I enter a more complicated flight as racing or dogfighting I put main thruster on throttle stick to 0 and fly exclusively using left stick for strafing thrust, strafing combined with boost and afterburner. On rare occasion I even use some throttle stick like leave it on 25-50% main thrusters so if I do let go of left stick I still carry momentum forward.
This is mostly used when I explore or searching and want to go slow but some time speed it up I combine them in many different ways dependent on what ship it is.

Where to put key assignment is where you find them most useful, I have focus on the keys I use most when flying, dogfighting, racing on top buttons on stick and on throttle.
The rest of keys I have on Thrustmaster MFD, Stream Deck button box I even use some buttons and switches on my racing wheel..

CHEERS!
 
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Shadow Reaper

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Shadow Reaper
#33
So it is fair to say, you can use yaw, pitch and roll controls at the same time as the three axis strafe controls quite easily with twin sticks, and really not easily at all with just one?

I am thinking mostly of what to do with a Vanguard, but I would prefer to just learn one system that makes sense. I would certainly not remember all the changes you make.

And did I understand right, you are actually flying two sticks and a throttle, but no peddles?
 

Mich Angel

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ARCHANGEL_666
#34
So it is fair to say, you can use yaw, pitch and roll controls at the same time as the three axis strafe controls quite easily with twin sticks, and really not easily at all with just one?

I am thinking mostly of what to do with a Vanguard, but I would prefer to just learn one system that makes sense. I would certainly not remember all the changes you make.

And did I understand right, you are actually flying two sticks and a throttle, but no peddles?
Yes with dual stick it allow you to use all direction independent or combined, that is the biggest advantage.

example: you can strafe a bit right and forward at the same time and strafe a bit down to using left stick as with your right stick you turn nose left with a bit of left role and down nose which would create a left down turning spiral circle. Using boost and afterburner can vary speeds on the different directions pushing more forward strafe then right will give more boost to forward etc. etc..

But keep in mind at this FM we have right now afterburner only effect main thrusters forward/reverse, boost only effect directional thrusters strafing in all directions.
Combining boost and afterburner with strafing can give you very high speed fast in almost any direction and as such also very fast stops and turns.

That is correct I do not use pedals since it's not a aircraft and the space ships have a lot more directions it can move so pedals for me just didn't work.
Tho I know some use it successfully, guess it's a personal feel thingy.

CHEERS!
 
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Blind Owl

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BlindOwl
#36
@Mich Angel and @marcsand2 , I'll be setting up my HOTAS and HOSAS this week in preparation to come out of SC hibernation.

Once again I feel I'll end up doing everything from scratch, as so much has changed. That being said, I may message one or both of you for some input on how to get Windows/SC to recognize all of my controllers. I seem to recall having an issue where only 2 of my 3 would be detected. We'll see if this holds true upon testing.

Looking forward to getting back into it lads.

@Shadow Reaper, you should talk to @marcsand2 . I believe he flies with pedals and dual stick.

Cheers lads.
 
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DasWoelfchen
#37
@Mich Angel and @marcsand2 , I'll be setting up my HOTAS and HOSAS this week in preparation to come out of SC hibernation.

Once again I feel I'll end up doing everything from scratch, as so much has changed. That being said, I may message one or both of you for some input on how to get Windows/SC to recognize all of my controllers. I seem to recall having an issue where only 2 of my 3 would be detected. We'll see if this holds true upon testing.

Looking forward to getting back into it lads.

@Shadow Reaper, you should talk to @marcsand2 . I believe he flies with pedals and dual stick.

Cheers lads.
I'm not sure when you took a break but i had no problem using four devices lately. Might be depending on the input device ofc.
 

marcsand2

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marcsand2
#38
If you're not shooting a gimbal, what are the advantages of a dual stick over a stick and throttle?
Lateral and vertical Strafe!!! You fly towards the point where you nose is pointing. If you want to get around a target, then you must point your nose next to the target and fly past it, then turn your nose back to the target..... unless you can strafe lateral / vertikal. Keep your nose on the target while strafing around it.

Some people bind strafe sidewards and strafe forward/backward to the left stick, then the strafe stick replaces throttle. I prefer to bind left/right up/down to my strafe stick, but I also use throttle and rudder brake pedals.

Is anyone flying twin sticks and using peddals for throttle and reverse thrust (break)? I'm uncomfortable with the notion of three separate hand controls.
Dual sticks, throttle, and rudder pedals. flight stick pitch/yaw, strafe stick lateral/vertical, throttle base speed, rudder pedals roll, left/right brake strafe forward/backward.

Combat: Throttle 100%, then I can use the left pedal to adjust speed 0 -100%. Throttle 50%, left pedal -50 - 50%.
Manoeuvring: Throttle 0%, left pedal -100 - 0%, right pedal 0 - 100%
 
Sep 19, 2016
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ARCHANGEL_666
#39
@Mich Angel and @marcsand2 , I'll be setting up my HOTAS and HOSAS this week in preparation to come out of SC hibernation.

Once again I feel I'll end up doing everything from scratch, as so much has changed. That being said, I may message one or both of you for some input on how to get Windows/SC to recognize all of my controllers. I seem to recall having an issue where only 2 of my 3 would be detected. We'll see if this holds true upon testing.

Looking forward to getting back into it lads.

@Shadow Reaper, you should talk to @marcsand2 . I believe he flies with pedals and dual stick.

Cheers lads.
Great to hear you coming back on again : -D

Yeah of cause any time, if I can help I will ; -)
 
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Shadow Reaper
#40
Lateral and vertical Strafe!!! You fly towards the point where you nose is pointing. If you want to get around a target, then you must point your nose next to the target and fly past it, then turn your nose back to the target..... unless you can strafe lateral / vertikal. Keep your nose on the target while strafing around it.
That's what I'm talkiing about. So you can point your nose at the target and strafe right while you yaw left, and you essentially rotate around the target while keeping it in your sights. That's a brawler move! and exctly what I want. And if i understand, you can't do that effectively without a second stick? You can't bind the little top-hat joystick at the top of the main stick to strafe, or it is just not as precise/effective?