Griefing Pirating how will they balance this?

[Bruttle]

It has long been by opinion that the key to the griefer/griefed mechanic is risk. Law systems have tried and failed. "Handshake" systems have tried and failed. Even games designed to completely avoid griefing or making griefing bannable have tried and failed to eliminate the issue.

The underlying issue in my opinion, is the imbalance of risk. The griefer risks nothing. The person getting griefed has everything at risk. This becomes an even wider gap when goods and pirating are involved. The risk imbalance exists there as well and griefers tend to hide behind pirate mechanics. Typically, the person doing the pirating risks their ship, legal status, etc. The person being pirated risks all the hours of effort placed in making the goods, crafting those goods, planning their trips for maximum profit, and even risks the overhead spent on escorts (if any escorts are chosen). The pirate just cruises around and picks a fight they know they can win. They typically only risk repair costs.

I think this imbalance lies at the heart of the issue. It's why pirating/stealing goods from other players tends to be the most profitable. It's also why griefers can operate relatively carefree. If you solve the imbalance, you solve the issue. Not only do you make pirating fun for both sides, but you also force griefers to actually risk something. That's why I am so hopeful for the legal system in SC. It offers a bounty system, access restrictions for criminals, and even additional costs through insurance and parts availability. CIG just needs to move the sliders around until the risk is the same on both sides.

One thing I firmly believe, is that if they just leave the usual dynamic of one side shouldering all the risk, there will be a huge issue. it is completely toxic to ask one side to risk days or weeks of work while the other side risks nothing.

 

[Phil]

It has long been by opinion that the key to the griefer/griefed mechanic is risk. Law systems have tried and failed. "Handshake" systems have tried and failed. Even games designed to completely avoid griefing or making griefing bannable have tried and failed to eliminate the issue.

The underlying issue in my opinion, is the imbalance of risk. The griefer risks nothing. The person getting griefed has everything at risk. This becomes an even wider gap when goods and pirating are involved. The risk imbalance exists there as well and griefers tend to hide behind pirate mechanics. Typically, the person doing the pirating risks their ship, legal status, etc. The person being pirated risks all the hours of effort placed in making the goods, crafting those goods, planning their trips for maximum profit, and even risks the overhead spent on escorts (if any escorts are chosen). The pirate just cruises around and picks a fight they know they can win. They typically only risk repair costs.

I think this imbalance lies at the heart of the issue. It's why pirating/stealing goods from other players tends to be the most profitable. It's also why griefers can operate relatively carefree. If you solve the imbalance, you solve the issue. Not only do you make pirating fun for both sides, but you also force griefers to actually risk something. That's why I am so hopeful for the legal system in SC. It offers a bounty system, access restrictions for criminals, and even additional costs through insurance and parts availability. CIG just needs to move the sliders around until the risk is the same on both sides.

One thing I firmly believe, is that if they just leave the usual dynamic of one side shouldering all the risk, there will be a huge issue. it is completely toxic to ask one side to risk days or weeks of work while the other side risks nothing.

I guess one way to curve it would be make trade routes and those routes protected by UEE and patrols but that limits the piracy gameplay unless you can build a system where you make higher profits operating outside of a trade route unprotected but the costs have to be made worth while to take the risk. Not sure how you balance a system like this you bring up good points of risk vs reward the trader will always risk more unless they are so heavily protected but that would be an extremely high cost.

 

[Talonsbane]

From my perspective, several of the earlier posters make great points. Especially those that effectively point out that given the state of the game, there is no actual profit for "pirates" which makes those currently going around attacking other unwilling players as griefers by definition. I have no qualms raiding or attacking NPC ships for the right reasons. I only plan on attacking other players either in mutual willing contests, in Org battles or in defense of myself, my friends, my Org mates or for those I'm hired to help protect. More than likely, I'll spend the majority of my time in game either exploring, trading, hauling or otherwise TESTifying.

 

[maynard]

we consistently underrate gamers' risk aversion

the number of people willing to haul valuable goods outside of UEE-protected space will not be big enough to support al the wanna-be piwates

so CIG is going to have to make NPC haulers for the piwates to 'raid'

 

[Phil]

From my perspective, several of the earlier posters make great points. Especially those that effectively point out that given the state of the game, there is no actual profit for "pirates" which makes those currently going around attacking other unwilling players as griefers by definition. I have no qualms raiding or attacking NPC ships for the right reasons. I only plan on attacking other players either in mutual willing contests, in Org battles or in defense of myself, my friends, my Org mates or for those I'm hired to help protect. More than likely, I'll spend the majority of my time in game either exploring, trading, hauling or otherwise TESTifying.

Lmao I am used to griefing I learned years ago while trying to enter my spacecraft on the launch pad people were ramming me before I could lift off lmao I thought ok....... people have nothing better to do than ram people trying to learn the game yay!!!

 

[sovapid]

From my perspective, several of the earlier posters make great points. Especially those that effectively point out that given the state of the game, there is no actual profit for "pirates" which makes those currently going around attacking other unwilling players as griefers by definition.

And that is one of the biggest problems with this topic. I don't think it meets the definition of griefing at all. Video game with guns, people are going to shoot at you. And the explosions are a big enough reward in and of themselves.

 

[SoloFlyer]

And that is one of the biggest problems with this topic. I don't think it meets the definition of griefing at all. Video game with guns, people are going to shoot at you. And the explosions are a big enough reward in and of themselves.

My opinion but I think it definitely isn't pirating. There is no payoff for the players engaging in it is there? They get nothing out of it other than the fact that they stopped an unwilling participant from enjoying the game. That sounds like griefing to me. If they were getting something out of it like loot or UEC it would be a different conversation. If its just the explosions they're looking for the npc ships blow up just as well don't they? Just because the other guy has guns, it means he has the option to shoot at you, not the expectation that he has to for no better reason then "that guy looks like easy pickins".

 

[Ammorn]

I hope they add more types of insurance. Insurance for cargo would be good for balancing things some since it would pay for some of cost of cargo lost to pirates. They could even have insurance offer full coverage, they'd just have to have premiums fluctuate with payouts to counter insurance fraud and carelessness/idiocy. Just like the golden age of piracy, insurance companies would want to support getting rid of pirates and reclaiming what they can from what they paid out on. Insurance companies would want to hire mercenaries and bounty hunters to deal with the pirates, and salvagers and private investigators to recover what they can from what they payed out on. Ideally an insurance company would want to have no pirates since they'd pretty much only be paying out for natural disasters and accidents.

 

[SoloFlyer]

I hope they add more types of insurance. Insurance for cargo would be good for balancing things some since it would pay for some of cost of cargo lost to pirates. They could even have insurance offer full coverage, they'd just have to have premiums fluctuate with payouts to counter insurance fraud and carelessness/idiocy. Just like the golden age of piracy, insurance companies would want to support getting rid of pirates and reclaiming what they can from what they paid out on. Insurance companies would want to hire mercenaries and bounty hunters to deal with the pirates, and salvagers and private investigators to recover what they can from what they payed out on. Ideally an insurance company would want to have no pirates since they'd pretty much only be paying out for natural disasters and accidents.

so how would something like that work? cargo runner bob has x amount of cargo insured by the space gekko. cargo runner bob gets hit by pirate jim and loses his cargo. Pirate Jim now has some sort of separate insurance related bounty outside of the UEE bounty that might have only occurred in UEE controlled space? Space gekko can now hire pirate recovery specialists to go deal with Pirate Jim, that sort of thing?

 

[Talonsbane]

I hope they add more types of insurance. Insurance for cargo would be good for balancing things some since it would pay for some of cost of cargo lost to pirates. They could even have insurance offer full coverage, they'd just have to have premiums fluctuate with payouts to counter insurance fraud and carelessness/idiocy. Just like the golden age of piracy, insurance companies would want to support getting rid of pirates and reclaiming what they can from what they paid out on. Insurance companies would want to hire mercenaries and bounty hunters to deal with the pirates, and salvagers and private investigators to recover what they can from what they payed out on. Ideally an insurance company would want to have no pirates since they'd pretty much only be paying out for natural disasters and accidents.

so how would something like that work? cargo runner bob has x amount of cargo insured by the space gekko. cargo runner bob gets hit by pirate jim and loses his cargo. Pirate Jim now has some sort of separate insurance related bounty outside of the UEE bounty that might have only occurred in UEE controlled space? Space gekko can now hire pirate recovery specialists to go deal with Pirate Jim, that sort of thing?

These sound great to me. Although, I think that the best way to implement the insurance on the cargo would be to have to pay x% of the cost of the cargo up front as well with that cost increasing on the percentage of the coverage. So the higher the coverage, the higher the cost per item. The bounty hunter would get a percentage of the amount that the insurance lost based on if he captured or killed the pirate responsible as well as if he recovered any of the lost property.

 

[Ammorn]

so how would something like that work? cargo runner bob has x amount of cargo insured by the space gekko. cargo runner bob gets hit by pirate jim and loses his cargo. Pirate Jim now has some sort of separate insurance related bounty outside of the UEE bounty that might have only occurred in UEE controlled space? Space gekko can now hire pirate recovery specialists to go deal with Pirate Jim, that sort of thing?

These sound great to me. Although, I think that the best way to implement the insurance on the cargo would be to have to pay x% of the cost of the cargo up front as well with that cost increasing on the percentage of the coverage. So the higher the coverage, the higher the cost per item. The bounty hunter would get a percentage of the amount that the insurance lost based on if he captured or killed the pirate responsible as well as if he recovered any of the lost property.

Yeah, like @Talonsbane said, you'd pay a fee for insurance on a cargo load depending on what kind of coverage you'd want. You could think of it as extra rewards for bounties since getting rid of pirates helps the insurance companies keep claims down, and they'd pay rewords for recovering cargo since the insurance company owns the lost goods. Same could be said for ship insurance since the insurance company owns the wreck, and it would make sense for the insurance company to hire a salvage crew to recover what ever costs they can from it. I could see explorers getting finders fees for finding wrecks and the insurance companies turning around and posting the locations on a job board that salvagers could pick up to go salvage.

 

[Talonsbane]

Yeah, like @Talonsbane said, you'd pay a fee for insurance on a cargo load depending on what kind of coverage you'd want. You could think of it as extra rewards for bounties since getting rid of pirates helps the insurance companies keep claims down, and they'd pay rewords for recovering cargo since the insurance company owns the lost goods. Same could be said for ship insurance since the insurance company owns the wreck, and it would make sense for the insurance company to hire a salvage crew to recover what ever costs they can from it. I could see explorers getting finders fees for finding wrecks and the insurance companies turning around and posting the locations on a job board that salvagers could pick up to go salvage.

It sounds to me like we're coming up with a rather reasonable & thought out solution to this problematic topic that once further details are figured out should be submitted to the staff at CIG as a suggestion to help balance the game in the future for everybody from multiple perspectives & occupations.

 

[Firen]

As for my opinion (and already stated above by other testies), there is no piracy mechanics atm therefor noone can be selfcalling themself pirates.

There is actualy no counter balance to the actes of several players that call themself pirates but actualy just blow ships and kill ppls for fun.

Though i laughed extremely hard when i readed those complaints of that so wanabe pirate that couldnt get into loreville because he had a bounty on his head.

I m looking forward for the implementation of the conséquences systems

 

[SullyQuindarius]

I welcome piracy and griefing later on. Regardless of the idiots who claim that "pirates and griefers always win", SC will make a pirate's life challenging no matter what, and combating them will be a ton of fun.

First of all, you'll have a bad rep and crimestat. Lawful players who're looking for action will open fire on you, the cops will open fire on sight, stations won't allow you to dock, and you'll have to get into Lorville and other areas creatively.

Now bounty hunters. These guys will be gunning specifically for you as soon as that disgruntled freighter pilot or enraged newbie in an Aurora reports you. This can make your life difficult - especially if you're trying to pick on a ship and a couple Hawks appear out of nowhere.

And finally - defense. In spite of all this, piracy will be a thing. It's a fun way of gameplay. Dumb pirates who shoot at everything in sight will be easy pickings, smarter pirates who choose their prey wisely will be dangerous. But regardless, people will fight pirates - convoys will hire escorts, solo players will practice escaping and fighting, etc.

 

[Phil]

I think this all shows that the system is complicated with no doubt and will be tricky to say the least in trying to make piracy a legitimate and fun experience while not allowing it to be manipulated into a form of grievance for players at the same time, so many things to consider and implement to make it balanced function properly and I share players concerns because I have never seen a game without griefers and rarely see a game where a system like this works perfectly that being said I think it can work well but I doubt it will be perfect I really think greifing will be hardest on the small groups or solo players.

 

[Bambooza]

we consistently underrate gamers' risk aversion

the number of people willing to haul valuable goods outside of UEE-protected space will not be big enough to support al the wanna-be piwates

so CIG is going to have to make NPC haulers for the piwates to 'raid'

Very true but players also want to find the highest profite trade routes and then will whine when said trade routes run them afoul of PC pirates.