Guns. Good or Bad?

[Pander]

The thing I see most in threads like this is the classic

"Oh smoking kills what about that! I could run over people in my car ban that too! what about a hammer i can kill a man with that"

Yes we get it you can kill people with lots of items but when an item has been built with the specific purpose of killing with a very high efficiency that is very easy to get a hold and its happening often then something is wrong

Its easy to see how cool a gun is when your out shooting with your mates not so much when your gunning down a crowd of people call of duty airport style "remember no russian"

 

[Deroth]

...and then there are explosives.
Many of which were first invented for construction purposes, they are currently highly regulated around the world, and yet one of the simplest things to create with a basic understanding of chemistry.
If all of things in many grocery stores, hardware stores, or the local Wal-Mart that could be used to make an explosive were banned and removed they would be pretty barren.
However, explosives can and do kill more people at a single time as well as from further away than firearms.

The issue is not with firearms.

The issue is with what is people, what is motivating them to commit these crimes.

School shootings are not that common, they are still exceptionally rare.

Most of the violent, and particularly firearm related, deaths in the USA are committed by inner city gangs. If you remove places like New York City, Chicago, Detroit, and Los Angeles from the formula the USA has one of the lowest crime and firearm related issues in the world.

So instead of looking at 'what is wrong with guns', we should be looking at 'what is wrong with these areas' (hint: lack of legal options for upward mobility, frustration, and mental health.)

 

[Deroth]

There was a study done a while back about if the tool used to commit atrocities is solely based on ease of use and accessibility then the one chosen around the world should be quite uniform.

What they found was that the tool chosen has more to do with the current cultural hang-ups.

AR-15s are not big powerful rifles by any honest stretch of the imagination, they fire a round intended to be used to kill varmints up to small coyote. However, in the USA the media, especially Hollywood, has been pushing the narrative that they're murder sticks ever since they got bored of attacking a shotgun revolver named Streetsweeper.

In China knives are predominantly used due to their cultural hangups with knives.

Bombs are used in India (and were used in Ireland) due to cultural hangups there with bombs.

In Central America, South America, Africa, and the Middle East AK-47s are predominantly used for acts of this nature due to the cultural hangups in those regions with AK-47s.

So, again, it isn't the tool, it is the motivation.

 

[I_MIKE_I]

It's difficult to not offend anyone with the subject, some will see Guns as part of their culture and freedom, others will blame them for the loss of friends, relatives...

Personally, I can't agree with Guns being "Tools", they're made to shoot a bullet at a Target with a destructive impact, you can't build anything with them etc. Surely hunting would be the exception for this, but frankly I've yet to see legit Hunters use 12,7mm Sniper Rifles, Full-Auto Rifles or Handguns.

In my life, I've seen only one Gun (possibly fake?) used in a Robbery of a supermarket, the Woman the gun was pointed at could no longer work in this job and had to get psyological help.

So frankly, the tought of your random guy legitimately running around with a Weapon able to take a dozen lives before even having to reload because he just lost his shit seems surreal to me.

 

[Krystal LeChuck]

Most criminals don't use legally owned firearms. All criminals disregard the law and social rules. Legaly restricting access to firearms, restricts people from protecting themselves against those who step outside the law.

 

[Kenlee]

It's a very delicate subject and one that really divides people. I was 18 the first time I saw a gun. The fact that you can just walk into a local Wal Mart store in America and buy a gun is really mind blowing to me. It's one of the bigger cultural differences. I hope for Americans that one day there will be a change in the law even though most of them wouldn't want that change. My thoughts do go out to everyone affected. But praying won't fix the problem. Change is needed, whatever that involves I do not know as I am not an expert in american culture and I will not comment on something I probably don't fully understand. I am just glad to live in a place where seeing a gun is an anomaly.

 

[DarthMatter]

There was a study done a while back about if the tool used to commit atrocities is solely based on ease of use and accessibility then the one chosen around the world should be quite uniform.

What they found was that the tool chosen has more to do with the current cultural hang-ups.

AR-15s are not big powerful rifles by any honest stretch of the imagination, they fire a round intended to be used to kill varmints up to small coyote. However, in the USA the media, especially Hollywood, has been pushing the narrative that they're murder sticks ever since they got bored of attacking a shotgun revolver named Streetsweeper.

In China knives are predominantly used due to their cultural hangups with knives.

Bombs are used in India (and were used in Ireland) due to cultural hangups there with bombs.

In Central America, South America, Africa, and the Middle East AK-47s are predominantly used for acts of this nature due to the cultural hangups in those regions with AK-47s.

So, again, it isn't the tool, it is the motivation.

You got a link to that study?
Because it sounds interesting that so many different regions would use the same firearm (AK-47) based on cultural similarities, despite being across the world from each other while the firearm they are using is also one of the most easily found on illegal markets due to so many being built (most produced units according to Wiki) and that they don't break easily.

 

[Deroth]

12.7mm, like .50 BMG, are anti-material rounds so they're technically classified as Ordinance, not as Arms. This means they already have higher restrictions on them than more traditional rounds. (This also applies to things like hand grenades, heavy machine guns, cannons, and RPGs.)

Though they really aren't that much bigger than the .458 Lott and .460 Weatherby Magnum, both of which are completely legal in most areas and are commonly used for big and dangerous game hunting.

For a bit of context I found this site that has references that show that firearms are reported used to stop more crimes than crimes reported perpetrated with a firearm:

https://www.gunowners.org/sk0802htm.htm

 

[Deroth]

You got a link to that study?
Because it sounds interesting that so many different regions would use the same firearm (AK-47) based on cultural similarities, despite being across the world from each other while the firearm they are using is also one of the most easily found on illegal markets due to so many being built (most produced units according to Wiki) and that they don't break easily.

I want to say that it was conducted by and written about by Beatrice Heuser, but she's been involved in so many I'm struggling to figure out which one that actually came from.

 

[DarthMunkee]

You can argue that people are the problem and that guns are tools all day long but if you look at the facts you will see that you can solve a lot of the problem by removing the lowest common denominator from the equation. Australia is probably the closest country to the US out there and when was the last time they had a mass shooting? 1996. They have gone over 20 years without a mass shooting incident when we can't go more than a couple of months and the reason is simple, they strictly limit who can have guns and what kind they can have. Gun crime in Australia is also near non-existent because people don't have ready access to them. England is another example. March 2015 to March 2016 in Britain there were 26 murders committed with firearms, if you adjust that based on population it is the equivalent to roughly 130 if Britain had the same population as the US. The same time period there were over 11,000 gun deaths in the US. And that's not counting suicide by firearm, we don't have a clear number because there is a congressional ban on researching gun violence in the US.

Personally, I love to shoot. I don't own a gun but I have always enjoyed getting the opportunity to go shooting practicing the skills involved with it, I am not someone who is afraid of them or even fundamentally opposed to them. My biggest problem is that the people we elect to run the country choose to do nothing despite the fact that the majority of Americans want more gun control. I guess when it comes down to it, my philosophy on life still stands. People suck.

 

[DarthMatter]

I want to say that it was conducted by and written about by Beatrice Heuser, but she's been involved in so many I'm struggling to figure out which one that actually came from.

I know that problem.
Only thing worse is having a link and realize that the link is no longer valid. :cry:

 

[DarthMunkee]

There was a study done a while back about if the tool used to commit atrocities is solely based on ease of use and accessibility then the one chosen around the world should be quite uniform.

What they found was that the tool chosen has more to do with the current cultural hang-ups.

AR-15s are not big powerful rifles by any honest stretch of the imagination, they fire a round intended to be used to kill varmints up to small coyote. However, in the USA the media, especially Hollywood, has been pushing the narrative that they're murder sticks ever since they got bored of attacking a shotgun revolver named Streetsweeper.

In China knives are predominantly used due to their cultural hangups with knives.

Bombs are used in India (and were used in Ireland) due to cultural hangups there with bombs.

In Central America, South America, Africa, and the Middle East AK-47s are predominantly used for acts of this nature due to the cultural hangups in those regions with AK-47s.

So, again, it isn't the tool, it is the motivation.

I would imagine a lot of those choices also have to do with what is readily available in those areas. China doesn't have a lot of guns among the populace so a knife would be the next best thing that is readily available. Bombs in Ireland because they were trying to make a huge statement as quickly as possible (I don't know enough about India to comment on them) As for the AK-47, it is the most popular rifle in the world because the USSR produced a staggering number of them and they are still in heavy production today, plus a lot of those places either had a strong Soviet presence or were supported by them during the Cold War. When the USSR fell a lot of their overseas assets were abandoned leaving a supply for whoever wanted what was there.

You are correct about the cultural influences on some of the choices too though, so ultimately I would guess that it is a combination of cultural and access based choices.

 

[DarthMunkee]

Also as an aside, I really appreciate that the discussion here is civil and I really hope that it stays as such. I usually avoid conversations like this on the internet because they can seldom stay civil and just devolve into ad hominem attacks. So, while people suck, Testies are always pretty awesome.

 

[Krystal LeChuck]

Also as an aside, I really appreciate that the discussion here is civil and I really hope that it stays as such. I usually avoid conversations like this on the internet because they can seldom stay civil and just devolve into ad hominem attacks. So, while people suck, Testies are always pretty awesome.

SHUT UP! YOU ARE STUPID!

 

[Han Burgundy]

Sure, you could try a ban if you want. Good luck collecting more than 25% of what is out there. PLENTY of otherwise law abiding Americans would ignore the order to surrender their weapons and you would likely activate and swell the numbers of several of the US's many armed militias. They have been waiting for something like this for 200 years. You think Irish car bombs were bad? Wait till you get a load of Jim-Bob and the grenade launcher he bought from some shady dude on craigslist...

Bans are technically a solution, but not a practical one. You can debate the philosophy all day, but in the end; all that matters is what can actually be done. Americans are NOT Australians. I guarantee that there are THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of American citizens who would rather have a shootout with the police than be forcibly disarmed. The fallout from such an order would end up far deadlier than all of our mass shootings for the past 30 years combined. Easily. A guerrilla war will do that to ya...

And if you think that I'm overstating the response, you've never met a real redneck. We've got a lot.

 

[Deroth]

Sure, you could try a ban if you want. Good luck collecting more than 25% of what is out there. PLENTY of otherwise law abiding Americans would ignore the order to surrender their weapons and you would likely activate and swell the numbers of several of the US's many armed militias. They have been waiting for something like this for 200 years. You think Irish car bombs were bad? Wait till you get a load of Jim-Bob and the grenade launcher he bought from some shady dude on craigslist...

Bans are technically a solution, but not a practical one. You can debate the philosophy all day, but in the end; all that matters is what can actually be done. Americans are NOT Australians. I guarantee that there are THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of American citizens who would rather have a shootout with the police than be forcibly disarmed. The fallout from such an order would end up far deadlier than all of our mass shootings for the past 30 years combined. Easily. A guerrilla war will do that to ya...

And if you think that I'm overstating the response, you've never met a real redneck. We've got a lot.

Bought from Craig's List?

Why not just modify one of their old potato guns from the shed? Far better than trusting one of those kiddy touching hippies from Craig's List!

...or one of the old pumpkin chuckers out in the field that've been holding targets for the past couple years?

 

[DarthMunkee]

Sure, you could try a ban if you want. Good luck collecting more than 25% of what is out there. PLENTY of otherwise law abiding Americans would ignore the order to surrender their weapons and you would likely activate and swell the numbers of several of the US's many armed militias. They have been waiting for something like this for 200 years. You think Irish car bombs were bad? Wait till you get a load of Jim-Bob and the grenade launcher he bought from some shady dude on craigslist...

Bans are technically a solution, but not a practical one. You can debate the philosophy all day, but in the end; all that matters is what can actually be done. Americans are NOT Australians. I guarantee that there are THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of American citizens who would rather have a shootout with the police than be forcibly disarmed. The fallout from such an order would end up far deadlier than all of our mass shootings for the past 30 years combined. Easily. A guerrilla war will do that to ya...

And if you think that I'm overstating the response, you've never met a real redneck. We've got a lot.

100% agree with you on this one. A ban would never work here like it has in other countries, it's all too ingrained in our culture. There are plenty of people who would keep them as a form of protest and many more that would assume it's a conspiracy to control the population. The problem is that it's going to be nearly impossible to come up with a solution that would not lead to bigger problems.

And if a ban were to be enacted, we would enter a dark time of weaponized vegetable warfare with potato guns and pumpkin cannons being used against the government oppressors. Pumpkin Spice would take on a whole new meaning.

 

[Han Burgundy]

Pumpkin Spice would take on a whole new meaning.

"Pumpkin Spice" is code for a pumpkin filled to the brim with thermite. Our Punkin Chunkers stand at the ready!

 

[Deroth]

"Pumpkin Spice" is code for a pumpkin filled to the brim with thermite. Our Punkin Chunkers stand at the ready!

More likely Tannerite than Thermite.

Thermite is a PITA to make and ignite, plus it typical burns very slowly (just insanely hot.)

Tannerite, in the other hand...Rednecks already blow up tree stumps and rusted out cars with this stuff for their weekend YouTube videos, I'd be surprised if none have already experimented with pumpkins filled with it then launched from a pumpkin chunker.

 

[Han Burgundy]

More likely Tannerite than Thermite.

Thermite is a PITA to make and ignite, plus it typical burns very slowly (just insanely hot.)

Tannerite, in the other hand...Rednecks already blow up tree stumps and rusted out cars with this stuff for their weekend YouTube videos, I'd be surprised if none have already experimented with pumpkins filled with it then launched from a pumpkin chunker.

Shiiiiit, son. The explosive nature of Tannerite is exactly why I wouldnt want to use it. The pressure in the barrel while firing that damn thing might set the Tannerite off. Better to splash your enemy with a blob of armor-melting horror. THAT would be more effective against police armored vehicles than the boom would be. Get that shit onto the engine block then sit back and watch the million dollar vehicle turn to an armored heap of scrap.