Hmm... ISP free speed increase from 100Mbps to 200Mbps?

Thalstan

Space Marshal
Jun 5, 2016
2,008
7,063
2,850
RSI Handle
Thalstan
unfortunately, every one of those is trying to sell you something, or convince you there is an issue due to politics. I see superstorm sandy being brandied about in a few of these. Yes, it impacted a lot of people, but when you look at what actually happened, you will see that with the scope of the storm, we really got off pretty lucky. If you are interested in a decent non-political report on Sandy and the grid, read http://www.nerc.com/pa/rrm/ea/Oct2012HurricanSandyEvntAnlyssRprtDL/Hurricane_Sandy_EAR_20140312_Final.pdf I will say this. There are some very good recommendations there. Using steel or concrete poles instead of wood (increases expense and cost per pole though) will improve reliability in some instances, but I wonder about the ability for utilities to store and maintain large numbers of them to be on-hand as replacements after emergencies.

even the ASCE report exaggerates some claims. "Even a single line can not be taken out" Bull. In almost every case, a line can be taken out of service for an emergency. In fact, the grid must operate at a state of N-1...so if they lose any single element, they can not exceed the emergency limits of other lines. When they talk about lines operating beyond their design...umm No. While I don't know about distribution lines, if a transmission line exceeds the normal rating, or upon a valid contingency, exceeds the emergency rating, they must take steps to reduce the loading on those lines. Usually, that means dispatching generation "off cost" So instead of a cheaper generator producing electricity, they must run a most expensive one.

So why didn't they build the transmission system to move power from cheap generation to load in the first place? Because until 1996 and FERC order 888 and 889, extremely high voltage lines and even high voltage lines were built to transfer power from the local utilities generators to their customers, not from the middle of the country to the coast. Now that grid has been re-purposed, they find there are bottlenecks. This is to be expected. it's like saying that your gated residential street that used to be local traffic only is now open to everyone and it connects the mall to the local interstate by a 1/4 mile road instead of the 4 miles it takes for the normal way. So your street is now congested.

So why not build a bypass? NIMBY - Not In My Backyard. People love the idea of infrastructure improvements...the utility, road commission, etc comes along and says they are putting up a big transmission line/highway, etc behind your yard (not even on your property). Then the person who loved the idea of it starts writing letter, making complaints, and in general, tries to keep the project from impacting their property values. In fact, it usually takes 10+ years for permitting to go though and to get the easements on these major improvements. This adds a lot of time and expense. This NIMBY attitude is especially prevalent when it does not benefit you directly. Often times, the transmission line being added in your backyard will not lower the cost of your power bill, but instead provides additional reliability or cost reduction (usually both) to a city 60/100 miles away. These are being built, but it takes time. Also, lines are being restrung and upgraded. Breakers that have reached retirement age are being replaced, as are transformer. Electro-mechanical relays are being replaced with microprocessor relays. So yes, work is going on to improve and modernize the grid...but the people you are listening too want more of the money to go to them or the people that pay them...thus their reports.
 

Bruce

Grand Admiral
May 23, 2017
520
1,889
1,350
RSI Handle
ABAP
Using steel or concrete poles instead of wood
it is surprisingly BAD idea in quite a few climate zones ... as you rightfully mentioned - taken into consideration production costs, repair costs etc. we may be much better with wooden poles in every place that has substantial humidity and temperature shifts :)
 

Bambooza

Space Marshal
Donor
Sep 25, 2017
5,689
17,911
2,875
RSI Handle
MrBambooza
Not only that wood is amazing in its flex ability were steel fails due to metal fatigue. Concrete works best under compression but even still has issues with its embedded steel reinforcement causing stress fractures due to the differential expansion rates between the concrete and steel.

unfortunately, every one of those is trying to sell you something, or convince you there is an issue due to politics
It is true that those links were trying to sell something or overly dramatic convince the sky is falling. Which is why I linked multiple from different points of view as the common core concept is still valid.

The energy.gov report and the National Transmission Grid Study are a beter source but wasn't sure if people wanted to dive that far into it.

https://www.energy.gov/oe/services/electricity-policy-coordination-and-implementation/transmission-planning
https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/oeprod/DocumentsandMedia/TransmissionGrid.pdf

Sandy and the grid, read
I was trying to stay away from Hurricane Sandy as natural distastes like Hurricanes and Earth Quakes are hard to build enough redundancy against. I was thinking more the effects of the Northeast Blackout of 2003 which should the cascading effect of a small localized issue that left a huge area with out power.

Usually, that means dispatching generation "off cost" So instead of a cheaper generator producing electricity, they must run a most expensive one.
Even standby fast response gas turbine power plants take up to 30 mins to start up.

NIMBY - Not In My Backyard. People love the idea of infrastructure improvements...
This is at the heart of many an issue. Power, Cellphone reception and number of carriers as well as the internet and number of providers for a region. Take California for example its power consumption exceeds its production by 24% as of 2016 and its only expected to grow.

http://www.energy.ca.gov/almanac/electricity_data/total_system_power.html


The transmission system has helped in that it has allowed power plants across the nation to make up the shortfall from the lack of new power plants coming online but as you said it takes 10 plus years from them to be completed if they ever make it that far. Lots of projects are killed in the planning stages or shortly after the ground breaking ceremony when the lawsuits pile up.

These are being built, but it takes time. Also, lines are being restrung and upgraded. Breakers that have reached retirement age are being replaced, as are transformer. Electro-mechanical relays are being replaced with microprocessor relays. So yes, work is going on to improve and modernize the grid
All of this is true and the microprocessor relays upgrade is done by government grant which was initiated shortly after the Northeast blackout of 2003. Which keys back to my point about a government regulated internet infrastructure will require the same sort of grant requirements to have any sort of chance for capital improvements.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/2003-blackout-five-years-later/
https://www.smartgrid.gov/the_smart_grid/smart_grid.html

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/8-charts-to-illustrate-progress-on-does-smart-grid-investment-grants#gs.9dGCDKo
https://www.smartgrid.gov/files/SGIG_progress_report_2013.pdf

The one thing that is concerning about the SGIG is the large percent of revenue spent on Advanced Metering Infrastructure as it does nothing to improve the transmission lines but simply focus on attempting to change peoples energy usage behavior from how much and when.
 

Xist

Moderator
Staff member
Officer
Donor
Jan 16, 2016
903
2,654
1,650
RSI Handle
Xist
This provides your credentials but it doesn't answer my question. As it seems we are coming at the question from different places and so I asked for your understanding so that we can find a common reference point. But your still illusive as to your reasons while clearly offended that I suggest you can control the inter web by controlling the middle.

So I ask you why are you saying control the small pipe endpoints if you want to control the internet?
I'm not offended in the least, I just know that having the long haul bandwidth providers offer unrestricted access regardless of content won't do anything at all to stop the cable companies from censoring and throttling their end users.

Why exactly do you think it would help? You seemed to allude to "competition" which, while an amazing solution to many problems, simply does not and likely will not ever exist in the US home ISP business.

Edit: replying on phones is ... Too much autocorrect nonsense.
 

Bambooza

Space Marshal
Donor
Sep 25, 2017
5,689
17,911
2,875
RSI Handle
MrBambooza
Ahh I see were we got the wires crossed as there was two different conversations in the thread. "Buying up and controlling the backbone you would control all of the interwebz or at-lease a major part of it" was in response to NaffNaffBobFace asking how to be king of the Internet and ban all cat videos and not a response on cable companies censoring or throttling end users. Given that most cable companies and local isp's rely on it for regional connections between their users bases as well as access to international markets and cloud servers like Amazon AWS. While it is true that its not in their financial best interest to throttle any connection as they make profits per bit sent, I do not believe such concerns would be a factor for a gajillionaire. This doesn't mean that these companies have not contemplated providing different speed tiers as it could be financial profitable to give premium pipe access to select buyers while others are routed over old gear and under utilized routes.


So... If I were a gajillionaire, all i'd have to do is buy AT&T, Verizon, Comcast and Spectrum and i'd control all of Americas interwebz?

My first act as King Of The Internet (Koti) would be to ban all cat videos on Mondays. National productivity would go up 3000%.

Morale would go down, but it's Monday morning: it's not supposed to be nice. Get back to work, ya bums!

I'm not offended in the least, I just know that having the long haul bandwidth providers offer unrestricted access regardless of content won't do anything at all to stop the cable companies from censoring and throttling their end users.

Why exactly do you think it would help? You seemed to allude to "competition" which, while an amazing solution to many problems, simply does not and likely will not ever exist in the US home ISP business.

Edit: replying on phones is ... Too much autocorrect nonsense.
Competition is an amazing solution to the issue and I wish it was far more doable then it currently is. Which is why I said I wish it was possible but given the physical limitations not practical and thus we are stuck with government regulation as hampering as it is. Then the question is which is the best possible use of government intervention. Do we attempt to keep these ISP/Cable providers in line by using the FTC or the FCC? Currently the cable companies lawyers have fanangled their way through the courts systems into a place where they are regulated by neither. Even given the fact that the Ninth Circuit ruled that common carrier is activity-based and thus only the the services that are common carrier can be applied common carrier exceptions, which is a overturn of a previous ruling and I am sure this is not the end of this legal battle.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NaffNaffBobFace

Xist

Moderator
Staff member
Officer
Donor
Jan 16, 2016
903
2,654
1,650
RSI Handle
Xist
Ahh I see were we got the wires crossed as there was two different conversations in the thread. "Buying up and controlling the backbone you would control all of the interwebz or at-lease a major part of it" was in response to NaffNaffBobFace asking how to be king of the Internet and ban all cat videos and not a response on cable companies censoring or throttling end users. Given that most cable companies and local isp's rely on it for regional connections between their users bases as well as access to international markets and cloud servers like Amazon AWS. While it is true that its not in their financial best interest to throttle any connection as they make profits per bit sent, I do not believe such concerns would be a factor for a gajillionaire. This doesn't mean that these companies have not contemplated providing different speed tiers as it could be financial profitable to give premium pipe access to select buyers while others are routed over old gear and under utilized routes.







Competition is an amazing solution to the issue and I wish it was far more doable then it currently is. Which is why I said I wish it was possible but given the physical limitations not practical and thus we are stuck with government regulation as hampering as it is. Then the question is which is the best possible use of government intervention. Do we attempt to keep these ISP/Cable providers in line by using the FTC or the FCC? Currently the cable companies lawyers have fanangled their way through the courts systems into a place where they are regulated by neither. Even given the fact that the Ninth Circuit ruled that common carrier is activity-based and thus only the the services that are common carrier can be applied common carrier exceptions, which is a overturn of a previous ruling and I am sure this is not the end of this legal battle.
In that case it seems like we were arguing the same side of the issue. :open_mouth:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bambooza

Bambooza

Space Marshal
Donor
Sep 25, 2017
5,689
17,911
2,875
RSI Handle
MrBambooza
In that case it seems like we were arguing the same side of the issue. :open_mouth:
It does seem that way. Could have been caused by to much talking and not enough drinking.

Of course now Bruce is after them glory hole nuggets.
 
Forgot your password?