I give up.
- Thread starter Richard Bong
- Start date
Radegast74
Space Marshal
It's gonna be tough to find a TikTok video on that topic, you might have to search the inter-tubes for that info.
Here is the correct exit off the internet super highway:
Traveller is a classic table top pen and paper RPG.
I have the classic rules, most of the MegaTraveller rules, the T20 rules, some TNE material, some GURPS material. Of the rules since the original, I like the T20 version since it is very compatible with the original material, without the loopholes the original has. (And those are many. :) )
Bong:
This is my take, man. They call it Alpha but they market it as a released game because that is what it is. As soon as the PU hit, Star Citizen was live.
Is it a good game right now? No. It's an immersive experience but its not a good game. They toss around this Alpha word to get folks to look past that. Ultimately, this game will never "finish". Even after they abandon the alpha label, there will be an endless stream of new goals and deadlines for CIG to miss. I doubt there will even be some sort official "release" so much as a decision not to wipe anymore.
Even in another decade, if they ever get half the features they plan for in, another slate of features will be on the docket and round we go. It will NEVER be "feature complete".
Whatever you do though, don't get into the mindset of waiting for some official "release" since that way goes madness. This is not an investment. Its not a lifestyle. Its a released game. Accept what's there as a released game. If you glean enjoyment from what is there (I do!), then play it every once in a while.
Still, if it feels like constant disappointment, it's probably better to sell all your stuff and bow out. The game they are slowly adding features to will never be as cool as the fantasy bs in our heads. CIG will never finish. They will keep on missing deadlines as long as they have features they can dream up for the game or they fold.
This is my take, man. They call it Alpha but they market it as a released game because that is what it is. As soon as the PU hit, Star Citizen was live.
Is it a good game right now? No. It's an immersive experience but its not a good game. They toss around this Alpha word to get folks to look past that. Ultimately, this game will never "finish". Even after they abandon the alpha label, there will be an endless stream of new goals and deadlines for CIG to miss. I doubt there will even be some sort official "release" so much as a decision not to wipe anymore.
Even in another decade, if they ever get half the features they plan for in, another slate of features will be on the docket and round we go. It will NEVER be "feature complete".
Whatever you do though, don't get into the mindset of waiting for some official "release" since that way goes madness. This is not an investment. Its not a lifestyle. Its a released game. Accept what's there as a released game. If you glean enjoyment from what is there (I do!), then play it every once in a while.
Still, if it feels like constant disappointment, it's probably better to sell all your stuff and bow out. The game they are slowly adding features to will never be as cool as the fantasy bs in our heads. CIG will never finish. They will keep on missing deadlines as long as they have features they can dream up for the game or they fold.
Last edited:
I don't mind if they never "finish" the game by working to keep it upgraded, etc. What I have a problem with would be to call it "released" with all the bugs.
If this is a released game, then it's a horrible game. If it's a playable alpha, then a lot of those problems don't mean much.
In a released game, it should be stable. There should not be wipes (any wipes), and balancing and all basic features should be in (like armor on ships)
Right now, it can't be a released game no matter what they call it.
That's the power of language.
Sure it can.
I stopped buying into into the "future" of this game and its "promise" a while ago.
The game is out NOW. Its a live service game with updates. Eventually, it may or may not have drones, and settlements, and ai blades, and hirable npcs, and a point to do things, and org tools, and modularity, etc etc etc. Right now it doesn't. I would be surprised if any of that stuff makes it in the next 5 years.
Its a game you can jump into, fly around, see pretty space things with a decent flight model. Its a weak game but a solid experience. I jump in every few months to experience it again and to see what new widgets they have added. This is how most live service games work.
Here's the news flash: once all those features are in, people still won't be satisfied because it won't match up to the fantasy they have built up in their brain. But don't worry, CIG will come up with new features to put on the roadmap, new stuff to pledge for, for who knows how long.
EDIT: I want to make it clear that I am not criticizing CIG or SC development. They are selling us on a fantasy - which is what ALL MMOs do. Honestly, the current SC experience is more fulfilling to me than many other MMOs out there (New World, etc). I just think that we as consumers shouldn't kid ourselves about what SC is or what our roles as consumers of SC content is. Its a game not a "project". We are consumers not "investors". Its current state is, IMO, released not "alpha." Just my two cents.
Last edited:
A released game is stable, Star Citizen is not.
At best, Star Citizen is a screenshot generator.
Some of my favorite released games have been unstable. A game being released and a game being stable are two different descriptors aligned to two very different things.
I recall Elite 3 First Encounters, released game, not finished (the argent's quest plot and the thargoid, you had extra scenario in the files), not stable.
But I sinked hundreds of hours in it ! And replayed it multiple times.
I can compare it to SC right now.
Correct if all the players were going to play on the same game server/game world then there is no server currently in existence that would be capable of handling the workload let alone clients that could have good enough predictive algorithms to smooth the latency issues for fps combat. CIG's plan is to have a common database and a distributed server mesh within Amazon's AWS datacenters so that unless you are logging in and grouping up with friends in different regions the game world you will be a part of would be one hosted on a game server hopefully close to your current location that is handling that section of the game world. This means that if you are in Australia and I am in California and we are both in Hurston we most likely will not see each other in-game unless we are in the same party. The mesh in its expressed construction is supposed to not only handle changes in-game world size (the section of the game world currently loaded and running on an individual server) as well as sharding of a location to have multiple servers all handling the same location if it becomes overly populated and cannot realistically shrink the map size any more then minimal constraints (like Hurston ). Its not just game server memory and CPU utilization restrictions but also client side memory and CPU utilization as well as network traffic that all become bottlenecks. CCP (Eve-Online) got around this by slowing down the server tick rate so that more time could be used to process all of the game world update transactions and make sure all of the player clients were in sync with the current state (CCP also went from a TCP network protocol to a udp to free up the network impacts on packet misses).
This is all just a long way to say that even if we are all playing in the same game world we are not all going to be playing on the same server even if we are at the same place unless we are in the same party and location. The one thing that I have not heard them speak much about and I am sure they have not figured out how they are going to deal with is when two shards have player-placed objects in the same location. It might just be as long as both shards are running they both will have a slightly different view of the game world and then when they collapse the objects with a lower priority level will just be deleted.
Note, not speaking for Bong here, just for myself, cos I have similar issues with CiG as he does but I'm not quitting just yet:
Just because you learned to accept that travesty, doesn't mean it should be the case. I grew up in an age where games upon release used to be stable and mostly bug free. I know that's not the case now, but that doesn't make it any more acceptable.
Also note the past tense in your own sentence. "have been unstable". That is key, something that CiG doesn't care to address, and that is a huge part of the problem.
Your treating it as a "live game" isn't anything new, we were Told that it's a live game ages ago by CR himself. In his Citcon speech a couple years ago he said that they recognized they are running a live universe, a live game, and as such they would treat it like a live game, meaning they would fix core bugs.
They didn't.
Yes we got events out of it, but mostly cos it's great marketing, notice how every time we get something big like a Lockdown or IAE we get a freefly as well. No harm there, good on them to realize this opportunity, but they keep messing those up by leaving basic bitch bugs, like stuck elevators unfixed for years now!
The issue in itself isn't that they keep changing stuff, or that they want to keep adding stuff till they go bankrupt. That's what a lot of successful games do. NMS, DCS, ETS2, WoT, WOW... It's good!
The issue is they are promising to add stuff without even the slightest hint of finishing up anything else first! That's where they differ, and that's a huge difference!
That's why it's an Alpha and going to stay that.
Note that I'm not bitching about this cos I wanna quit or want my "investment" back. Never understood the absolute absurdity of calling it an investment. You don't even get a collectors edition box to sell for a profit later...
Anyways, I'm bitching about it because I love the game, I want to get lost in it, but I want to play it without the constant fear of disappointment. I want to play it without having to think about what to do next in case it breaks so I get the least amount of my time wasted, and get the least disappointed. Something that could have been achieved years ago by fixing the basics, like falling through ships, elevators killing you, desynced thus invincible enemies, broken delivery boxes...
That's why the "'wait and chill" approach is wearing thin. We waited a lot, yet the most basic things aren't getting fixed with the excuse of "but it will change and we will fix it then". More over, they even stopped saysing that! It's just accepted now that everything is always in a more or less broken state. This should not be the norm!
As you said, the game will never be "finished", that's fine if that still means that these basic game breaking bugs that are present since day one of the PU get fixed. But they are not getting fixed cos nothing is ever finished!
ps.: Also, this selling us on a fantasy idea. True, but they stopped selling us the big fantasy and all we get is minimal bullshit of changes to things that already work fine, like the locomotion system... I want the big lies back! Sandworms, jump points, dozens of capships shooting each other with beam lazor space whales, whatever! At least those kept me warm and fuzzy inside while waiting for the next big thing!
Well, I do not absolve CIG of any responsibility of theirs to make a stable game. I just don't believe a game needs to be stable to be considered "released". If anything, it will be easier to hold CIG accountable for their product if we as a community reject the narrative that the game is an alpha instead of the released live service game it actually is.
You and I differ on our understanding of what an alpha is. Also, if you want to hold CIG's feet to the fire for bugs and the like, then continuing to call the game an alpha isn't doing you any favors. The "its an alpha" mantra is what gives CIG cover to do exactly what is grinding your gears.
You must know how contradictory these desires are. We want the big lie but we don't want to be disappointed. I know you are referencing a couple different things here (wanting to play without crashes and wanting sandworms) but I see a connection. If you want CIG to keep dreaming the impossible dream, well, there will undoubtedly be some disappointment (whether from crashes, or delays, or whatever).
EDIT: Oh, and as far as "wait and see", that is not my approach at all. I am not "waiting". The game is out now. Play it. If it isn't fun for you, I sincerely think you should just sell off all the SC stuff you have and play something else. No game is worth the kind of aggravation folks express in waiting for these features they don't have yet. I don't have that issue. I play SC in fits and spurts. When I get bored with it, I put it down and come back to it later. I just don't perseverate on these features it may never have.
Last edited:
If you are interested in Traveller and you like DnD, you should try Stars Without Number. It's basically a souped up old school DnD with the Traveller skill system bolted on. Good fun.
There is a free version available with most of the content of the Deluxe version included:
www.drivethrurpg.com
There are even SWN websites made to help you generate random sectors of space to play in:
sectorswithoutnumber.com
There is a free version available with most of the content of the Deluxe version included:
DriveThruRPG
www.drivethrurpg.com
There are even SWN websites made to help you generate random sectors of space to play in:
Sectors Without Number
Revised edition compliant Stars Without Number sector generator
sectorswithoutnumber.com
Id only play it on tabletop sadly and with that i dont have nerdy friends anymore since i moved out to japan.If you are interested in Traveller and you like DnD, you should try Stars Without Number. It's basically a souped up old school DnD with the Traveller skill system bolted on. Good fun.
There is a free version available with most of the content of the Deluxe version included:
DriveThruRPG
There are even SWN websites made to help you generate random sectors of space to play in:
Sectors Without Number
Revised edition compliant Stars Without Number sector generator
True, calling it a released live service game would put pressure on them to fix their stuff.
It would also crash the sales because the game is in an unacceptable state for what any sane person expects from a released game even by todays very low standards. Not a good outlook for the long run, especially since they have zero intention of finishing anything to an acceptable level in the near future.
As for my last point of selling me on the big lie, you misunderstood. I know it's a lie. I'm fine with that, I've never been truly disappointed by not getting the big lies in game.
It's all the basic old stuff , some of that I listed that should have been fixed by now. It would improve my enjoyment of the game more than adding new broken features, no matter how big of a feature it may be. All the while I want them to produce the big lies, because it's fun!
Oh the game is fun, just recenetly it's not as fun as I'd like it to be.
Sell off? Why? Quit whenever something is a little bit not perfect? That's just silly and childish. Why would having SC stop me from playing anything else? That's just nonsense.
I'm not waiting on anything big lifechanging feature, doesn't mean I have to like and accept everything that's happening. Others might be waiting, let them be passionate about whatever they want. Nothing wrong with that.
You seem to have no expectation of SC getting better with time then?
I do. I believe most of us do. At least I do expect things that worked at some level to still work at that level whenever I jump in a couple of times a month. Don't you think that's reasonable?
Also, How are we supposed to put pressure on CIG if anyone who dislikes it should just sell off and quit instead of voicing their discontent? :D makes no sense
Moves to the nerdiest place on Earth,...
Hadron Xon
Space Marshal
I have been gone for ages..... Just started following SC again, like this week . The rate of progress CIG has made in 10 years is mind boggling silly .I expected the game to be out now and who knows how long it will take. Honestly I stopped caring years ago. I came very close to selling my account but changed my mind after giving it a few weeks then deciding to just step away from the game and its community. CIG will either complete the game or be bought out( just my 2 cents). I don't think this game will just dissipate into the ether no matter how much they fumble with the development. Like others have said , take a break and do something else for a while. No reason is get upset over something you can't control.
A bit deadlier, in fact it was the only RPG where you can die during character creation. :) It is a similar idea, and one version of the game is based on the D20 rules. But, yes, it can be pretty fun.
There is a class of software, I'm currently looking for the better current examples, designed to allow that tabletop experience through the Internet.