INFITAC

[Shadow Reaper]

This is a serious revolution in shooting and home defense. . .anyone using a pistol or shotgun. The overwhelming majority of combat encounters in the home happen in the dark, so savvy defense gurus practice “blind fighting” where they point their weapon without use of the sights. Many others put a flashlight on a gun, but this betrays your presence which can get you killed.

This new solution is huge for tactical shooting. See without being seen, which as you know is my mantra here at TEST.

In most situations, thermal is superior to night vision because it so clearly marks opponents. It does not reveal objects as well as night vision but if you are defending your home, you already know where all the objects are.

FMP13: World’s First Multi-Functional Thermal Sight

Discover the FMP13, the world’s first multi-functional thermal sight, designed for unmatched precision and versatility. Elevate your performance in any mission with cutting-edge thermal imaging technology.

thermalpistolsight.com

 

[Yex]

*noise in night so picks up Uber gun 5000*

*turns on thermal*
*0% battery*

I feel like if someone meant you harm they'd just like, climb a tree and do you in through a window. Like your bed doesn't move, they know where you are. So I kind of don't think folks mean you harm, they just poor & hungry.

Or if you're afraid anyway that why you have 6ft husband?

 

[Shadow Reaper]

I’m not certain what country you’re thinking of but most shootings here in the US are on the street, are drug related and are one gang killing people in another gang. Almost all shootings are with unregistered pistols, at night, on public streets. It’s mostly drug dealers killing other drug dealers.

 

[Mudhawk]

True, Yex never gave off the impression of being american. Still Yex may or may not be able to put up a serious home defence if cornered. Most people do with the right incentive.Firearms at hand or not.
It's just that on my side of the Atlantic (might be Yex's side too come to think of it) military grade hardware usually does not end up in private hands. Hence the lack of shot wounds on victims or perpetrators.
But do not worry, we can still slice, bludgeon, poison, electrocute and run over like any other decent folks. And you do not wanna know what I can do with a good torch.
Only at that range I'm talking abot, what use is a thermal sight, right?
I bet it's different with the kind of hardware legal in the states.
I do guess you can put that stuff to good use in certain parts of LA.
Especially if you are the one breaking in.
Those guys can buy these sights too, or is it sold strictly to folks without a police record?
PS: If it does work as advertised it sure is a nice piece of technlogy. But Yex got a point about the battery drain being a potential problem.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

There’s no way to answer the question about selling this technology to those without a police record, because firearms laws are almost always state laws. Hence, there are over 38,000 firearms laws in the US.

The feds limit fully automatic weapons, suppressors, etc. The vast majority of firearms laws are state and so vary a great deal.

Your point is well made, though. Criminals can make use of thermal pistol sights as easily as law abiding citizens. Probably it will be a decade before the states catch up with and regulate this technology, presuming they pas any laws at all. I’m not familiar with any laws against lights and lasers except for hunting.

My point was really that if you understand that it is more likely to need a gun in the dark than the light, and you know you can’t use gunsights in the dark, and you thus rely upon lights and lasers, there is now what appears a superior choice. Thermal sights make people glow, and make it easy to find center body mass. I think this technology may even change the way people train, since you can see with the sight what you might miss without. My guess is a preferred method of scanning areas through the sight will develop—something I have not seen before. Also, an advanced pistol method may become more popular, where you hold the pistol much closer to the body instead of extending your arms. This will move the sight closer which will paint a larger area. John Wick would be proud.

I’m sure there are people here who don’t believe at all in a right to self-defense, but we’re playing a game where characters shoot each other. Seems people can manage a thick skin when they want to.

Just as an aside, firearms laws in the US do not vary state to state in the way you would presume. Liberal states can have very pro-gun laws and the reverse as well. For instance, in Oregon where I lived for 12 years, which is an extremely Left state, lethal force is legal in protection of private property. That’s an unusually pro-self defense stance only found in a few states.

 

[Nightlane]

why not use a holographic sight?

 

[Yex]

I’m not certain what country you’re thinking of but most shootings here in the US are on the street, are drug related and are one gang killing people in another gang. Almost all shootings are with unregistered pistols, at night, on public streets. It’s mostly drug dealers killing other drug dealers.

Drug dealers killing drug dealers just seems like they're doing society a favour. Cleaning up their own mess

True, Yex never gave off the impression of being american. Still Yex may or may not be able to put up a serious home defence if cornered. Most people do with the right incentive.Firearms at hand or not.
It's just that on my side of the Atlantic (might be Yex's side too come to think of it) military grade hardware usually does not end up in private hands. Hence the lack of shot wounds on victims or perpetrators.
But do not worry, we can still slice, bludgeon, poison, electrocute and run over like any other decent folks. And you do not wanna know what I can do with a good torch.
Only at that range I'm talking abot, what use is a thermal sight, right?
I bet it's different with the kind of hardware legal in the states.
I do guess you can put that stuff to good use in certain parts of LA.
Especially if you are the one breaking in.
Those guys can buy these sights too, or is it sold strictly to folks without a police record?
PS: If it does work as advertised it sure is a nice piece of technlogy. But Yex got a point about the battery drain being a potential problem.

Yippers I am Irish and in UK half the time so yeah pretty much the same rules. I've shot clays & ducks with 20 bores but farm sport shooting, at least when I was in school they taught to shoot and field service SA80's here, even a few old mausers. But I think it could be frowned on these days I don't know. They were all always iron sights but I don't know if that's what they still use.
(It was useful as it made me realise I'd be rubbish in the army, couldn't hold it up straight when it was full - weighed a ton).
Never really understood the need for war fighting stuff at home, had an American colleague who liked to show me his guns over zoom. I don't really get it outside of the military.
Ah yeah I sleep through most things, but my other half is pretty quick on jumping up at the dog barking.

Edit: no I think I am wrong I think it might have had a scope on the top sometimes

 

[Shadow Reaper]

I agree people care less about drug dealers killing each other than they would otherwise, but there is a lot of collateral damage. It’s pretty common for the Cripps or the Bloods to drive by the home of a rival gang member and shoot up the neighborhood, and innocents get hit pretty often. In round numbers there is something like 30k shootings a year, half of which are suicides. Of the remaining 15k, about 14k are gang/drug related. Of those that aren’t a large number are “righteous shootings” like home defense and robbers getting what they deserve.

The high crime rate with guns is a consequence of the high drug use and fantastic money available for drug peddlers. When I lived in Portland I met Cripps and Bloods members on the streets often, and they ALL carry illegal, unregistered handguns.

A little aside, I was living in Portland circa 1987 when they passed their concealed carry law. Overnight, 20,000 citizens were carrying and the armed robberies dropped from 11/week in the city proper; to 2-3/month. Criminals are scared of an armed citizenry.

There is a lot of blather here about high capacity rifles, but we have far fewer killings with rifles than we do knives and fists.

Fact is, if you wanted to do something about the shootings, the thing we know works is to bolster law enforcement presence in the areas where the shootings occur. We know beyond a doubt this works, but what happens in most cities is the police avoid the crime areas. So Chicago, Detroit, Baltimore, San Francisco, are all delivered over to the thugs. They pass laws saying they can’t prosecute theft under $1,000, so daylight looting is becoming common. The streets are covered in human feces and used hypodermic needles which the cities distribute for free in the name of stopping AIDS and other shared needle diseases. Women cannot walk alone day or night in many parts of many cities. None of this was happening until the 80’s.

Notice New York City is not on the list above because since Giuliani was Mayor in the 80’s, law enforcement has been done seriously. The new Mayor however wants to defund all police, so expect NYC to join the cities in decline list soon.

People voted for all this. Western Civilization and the rule of law are falling.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

why not use a holographic sight

They don’t give you the ability to see a darkened target. A flashlight will, but this exposes your position. Thermal allows you to see the target without necessarily being seen.

 

[Nightlane]

They don’t give you the ability to see a darkened target. A flashlight will, but this exposes your position. Thermal allows you to see the target without necessarily being seen.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/1em1p2p View: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/1em1p2p/night_vision_scopes/


Grab a holographic sight with LL in its name, then press alt + mouse click (not sure if it is left or right click)

 

[Thalstan]

Drug dealers killing drug dealers just seems like they're doing society a favour. Cleaning up their own mess

Here is the problem. They go through a neighborhood and shoot at their rivals, but end up hitting innocents like kids and mothers. This is not cleaning up their own mess, this is hurting people who don't deserve it.

 

[Mudhawk]

The high crime rate with guns is a consequence of the high drug use and fantastic money available for drug peddlers.

So the laughable ease of getting your hands on some iron in the states (registered or not) has nothing to do with it?

Criminals are scared of an armed citizenry.

So am I.
Things are bad enough during high profile soccer matches around here without drunk idiots carrying guns around.
And you don't want to go between two germans that have a heated argument about apple trees and property boundaries.
But I'm sure all those civilians with the hidden irons are hand-picked individuals of great integrity that went through a thorough mental and legal screening?

People voted for all this. Western Civilization and the rule of law are falling.

Well kinda true.
Considering how extremist parties with a "fuck the facts, thruth is defined by US" mindset take the floor in many western countries.
There are a couple of those clowns in the goverment of various NATO members. Kinda creepy how democracy and the divison of legislative and executive institutions gets corroded left and right.

But rejoice.
For you got a president that is PRO Gun.

All's peachy.

If all's NOT peachy he'll call the National Guard. Or the Marines.
I would no longer be surprised if he tests the waters for the inland use of tactical nuclear weapons too.
Probably in California.

By the way, most OTHER western civilisations besides the USA have similar problemswhen it comes to criminals, drugs and gangs.
Just that the Policemen face fewer shootings and less heavily armed opponents so they are not as afraid to go places.
(Neu Koeln though... policemen don't wanna face them arab gangs there one way or the other.)
It's not that our bad guys carry no illegal iron. But it's insanely complicated to get your hands on a minigun over here.
Just saying...

But back to the original topic. Any news concerning battery capacity of those sights?

 

[Shadow Reaper]

You sound angry. All I can tell you is that with a history of an extremely well-armed citizenry—more guns than gun owners—the kinds of shooting you’re suggesting are exceedingly rare. The cases of thugs in nightclubs firing on others are fewer than the knife attacks in the UK, in a country with 336M people. I think Switzerland which also has ubiquitous gun ownership likewise has virtually no shootings of the type you describe. Gun owners are generally very sober, careful people. In most US states, someone carrying concealed can get into serious trouble with the law if their weapon is conspicuous under their clothes, if they leave a weapon unattended, if they brandish the weapon without sufficient reason, etc. it’s not like people are waving guns around constantly. Even in states that permit open carry, you can get into serious trouble with the mere suggestion of drawing or pointing a weapon.

The US has had guns in the hands of its citizens for its entire history, and we have never had the problems you are inventing. The rise in shootings in the inner cities correlates perfectly with the rise in drugs, and in the past correlated with alcohol use during prohibition. That was when fully automatic weapons were restricted by the feds—1930s I think. And it’s not just correlation with drugs. As I said, the overwhelming majority of shootings (apart from suicide—the US is the only country that conflates suicides and homicides in its statistics) are directly drug related.

BTW, I dunno what you mean by “laughable ease” but I’m pretty sure all 50 states require background checks through the federal system. You can’t just go buy a gun in five minutes.

You shouldn’t be angry over how people make different choices. If you want to hand over your self-defense to others, live in a country that does not allow you a gun. It’s simple. If you want to wax philosophical, this is the issue: do you have a right to self-defense?

As to the “holographic” sight mentioned above, I thought you were talking about something else. “Night vision” sights are bulkier, but they do work. The thing with night vision is, it makes it easier to see objects, but does not distinguish between them and warm bodies. The key thing about Forward Looking Infra Red (FLIR) or “thermal” is that it highlights actual threats so you can point directly at them. Makes for speedy target acquisition, but dumps a heavy burden on the user to distinguish between warm bodies.

Note that key to making thermal or night vision available on a pistol is not just making it small. It needs to be able to handle the gee forces the slide goes through when it cycles, and that’s pretty extreme. So kudos to the folks at INFITAC.

I don’t recall what they said about battery life. Maybe five hours? Sounds familiar.

 

[Mudhawk]

You sound angry. All I can tell you is that with a history of an extremely well-armed citizenry—more guns than gun owners—the kinds of shooting you’re suggesting are exceedingly rare. The cases of thugs in nightclubs firing on others are fewer than the knife attacks in the UK, in a country with 336M people.

Well, I did not realize that I sounded angry. Should have used more smileys I guess? Because truly, why would I be?
(On that note, you baiting needs more practice.)

But for facts sake, official numbers in the European Union (and I admit that this no longer includes Great Britain) are:
...approximately 6,700 deaths by firearms occur each year. This includes suicides (around 5,000), homicides (around 1,000), and unspecified deaths or accidents (around 700). The majority of firearm deaths in the EU are suicides, with a significant portion involving older men using legal firearms....
So same as the US with the suicide ratio but markedly lower numbers to your 30.000.
And the EU got around around 448 Million inhabitants, so the general pool is larger.
This is just statistics. I admit I did not count them myselve.

BTW, I dunno what you mean by “laughable ease” but I’m pretty sure all 50 states require background checks through the federal system. You can’t just go buy a gun in five minutes.

Try to see the world from our side of the Atlantic for once. Compared to most civilized states the US has comparitively lax restrictions when it comes to guns. Probably because of your history and your constitution.
But don't think that I'm jealous. It's been years that I heard a live gunshot not fired by me. And that was during a visit in San Francisco.

If you want to hand over your self-defense to others, live in a country that does not allow you a gun.

By any chance, do you have a problem with attention spans?
I DO live in a country that does not allow easy posession of firearms for civilians. And I only pointed out that we have less deaths and less nervous policemen.
If that gave of the impression of me raving with froth at my mouth I apologize for the inconvenience.

If you want to wax philosophical, this is the issue: do you have a right to self-defense?

I do defend myself pretty well with a torch. As priorly stated. Torches are legal where I come from. Guns mostly not.
But let me ask a question in return, seeing like you reacted as vehemently as you did.
Do you feel a lesser man without a gun?

As to the “holographic” sight mentioned above, I thought you were talking about something else. “Night vision” sights are bulkier, but they do work. The thing with night vision is, it makes it easier to see objects, but does not distinguish between them and warm bodies.

Once again the attention span. Wrong guy. I asked about the potential battery life. Because that think sure looks like it may drain some juice.
Still thanks for the detailed answer.

PS: Still not angry over here. Just saying... :-P

 

[Shadow Reaper]

<< Do you feel a lesser man without a gun?>>

A serious question deserves a serious answer.

I do not own any guns. When I lived in Oregon I was a sporting shooter and big game hunter, but about 30 years ago when I returned to NJ, I sold all my guns. The laws here were not conducive to ownership nor use. However, about five years ago the US Supreme Court found NJ’s conduct unconstitutional. They were refusing licenses to anyone who could not show specific need which is indeed a violation of our constitution. Many of my friends purchased guns as a result of that judicial finding.

I have not, yet. I’m accustomed to being pretty lethal without tools, but as result of the COVID vaccine I now have Congestive Heart Failure, and merely sitting up or standing up will make me out of breath and close to passing out.

So, indeed I think my chances to defend myself are extremely better were I to get a gun and I have been considering it for months. I have friends who shoot and the shooting club is just a couple miles from my home. Practice is necessary to proficiency, and as I said, I enjoy shooting.

That all said, gun ownership is a serious responsibility not taken lightly. So I am procrastinating. I think I will eventually take the plunge but to be honest, my little slice of life here in suburbia is not particularly crime ridden and I would likely never need to defend myself. The question is really do I want to take up shooting again in my old age.

And that KelTec PR57 is just so cool.

As per “torches”, I was under the impression that’s what we call a “flashlight” and if so, I dunno how that is useful for self-defense unless you plan to hit someone with it, or it has a taser built in. What would someone presume who lives on your side of the pond? Do you have taser -equipped flashlights?

 

[Mudhawk]

A serious question deserves a serious answer.

It does. Doesn't it?
And as answers go this one was pretty great. So thanks for that.
Sorry to hear about your congestive heart failure. Even though I did not have to experience that condicion I got 2 close by that got that ailment. One of them is up for surgery these days.
Not a fun state to be in, that much I understand.

Also I get that sometimes one might wish for a gun to up the personal chance for survival.
Once or twice in my life I would have loved to carry one thanks to the situation I found myself in.
In hindsight it was a good thing I had none because I sometimes had a bit of a temper problem back then.
Can't do something bloody stoopid if you only got the means for somethimg black-eyed stupid. If you catch my drift...

And lastly I wastrying to imply that since houseowners in Europe mostly have no guns at their disposal our burglars are usually unarmed too.
Doesn't change the basic situation since you're still getting robbed and all.
But... you know... less bulletholes...

PS: Sure it's cool. I wouldn't have reacted to the initial post if it were not.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

Yeah, the jab almost killed me. I had an 11” blood clot lodged in my aorta that had to be dissolved over months, and attempts to put my heart back into sinus rhythm have only lasted a day. So my life is utterly changed. My father also got CHF and died from it a few months ago, and my twin had clotting and a stroke that destroyed some of his vocal ability. So COVID and our mistreatment of it has cost my family much.

Yes, if you have a temper you should not carry a gun, but OTOH the disciplines necessary to carrying a gun might just temper your temper. So there’s that.

When I lived in Portland I listened to gunfire every night. North Portland was just 15 blocks up the street I lived off and that’s where the Cripps and Bloods were at war. They all lived over the bridge in Vancouver Washington and never shot up their own neighborhoods, but they had no issues with spraying the streets otherwise. Lots of innocent people were killed from this. It’s thirty years ago and I have no idea what the situation is now, but odds are it is worse, rather than better; since there are two more gangs competing for territory.

Contrast this with suburban NJ where the only gunfire I ever hear are hunters. Shots only during hunting season.

Keep in mind we have an urban sub-culture that glorifies violence. We have songs urging people to kill the cops. We have people who habitually disregard lawful orders from the police as if this is cool. We glamorize the drug culture and crime from the way people wear their pants below their crotch to entertainment like Grand Theft Auto. The only other time in US history this sort of thing was true was during our Prohibition Era when alcohol was illegal. We have robust, drug centered violence and a sub-culture to match.

One last thing we didn’t really discuss. There is a wide variety of laws governing the use of lethal force in the US, but they break down into three main categories. The middle view is known as “the castle doctrine” which is basically that you can “stand your ground” and are not forced to retreat before using lethal force. The more aggressive view is the protection of private property already mentioned, which survives from the days of horse thieves and the shocking results of losing a horse on the frontier. The most liberal extreme is that you must always retreat as much as possible before using lethal force, even out of your own home if necessary. That’s where California is. If you shoot armed thugs forcing their way into your home in California, you will be put in prison for murder unless you can prove you had no way to further retreat.

I’m the moderate view guy. I think if someone physically threatens you with lethal force, meaning some sort of weapon; they have sacrificed their right to life and you should be able to shoot them dead. Bad guys need to fear death, or all of society suffers terribly, IMHO.

 

[Ayeteeone]

Normally this is the kind of conversation I'd avoid on the internet, but there are a couple of point I think are worth bringing up as we are TEST, and mostly decent if not sober people.

The overwhelming majority of combat encounters in the home happen in the dark, so savvy defense gurus practice “blind fighting” where they point their weapon without use of the sights. Many others put a flashlight on a gun, but this betrays your presence which can get you killed.

Yes, they do. Night is (mostly) when these parasites do their stalking.
No, they don't. As someone who has been to some of the top tier schools in the country, NONE of them teach anything resembling blind fighting. Mas Ayoob has long included methods that involve indexing via the handgun silhouette at very close distances, and most honest places incorporate contact and retention distance techniques. The presumption for ALL of them is that the requirements to make the decision to shoot have been met, and that you need your shot to change the opponent's course of action.

White light can certainly give away your position, but it is far, FAR more important to identify the thing out there in the dark before the decision loop can even be started. Thermal can help with this, but I don't want to be that homeowner 'who was lying in the dark, waiting to murder the defendant' when an unfriendly DA brings the criminal case. There are legal burdens on the defender here that simply can't be met by shooting in the dark, no matter what tool is used.

Some of my wallpaper: Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Massad Ayoob Group, Dark Angel Medical, Lindell Retention. (P.S.A. - all of these are available to civilians who can pass a background check)

I don't really get it outside of the military.

In short, history. The folks who wrote our documents here had enough of the guy in charge of your part of the world at that time, and had an desire for 'the common man' to retain the ability to physically fight back when it got bad enough. It's a fairly well established thing with humanity that on the numbers, governments are the largest killer of their own people. If you doubt, just look around the planet today. It's not changed much.

The flip side of that right (any right!) is responsibility, and being human many of us ain't good at that. So the arguments go back and forth endlessly about what is 'best'.

So the laughable ease of getting your hands on some iron in the states (registered or not) has nothing to do with it?

Any legal transfer in the US requires a federal background check, so anyone trying to have a legitimate business has dozens of hoops to go through to be able to sell. Person to person has a few exceptions, such as within a family, or as an inheritance. Depends a lot on the local laws, as @Shadow Reaper alludes to, but is largely illegal now.

'On the street' sure, if you want to dive down into those cultures it's possible to get them. I'm not going there, especially not at the risk of being in possession of stolen or crime-related property, or being turned in by an informant/sting operation.

Note, this is in EXTREME contrast to what our culture was a few decades ago, where there were MUCH lower barriers to acquiring firearms and much less of the type of crime that gets sensationalised today.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

Well, Massad Ayoob is the guy who used to teach “blind fighting” back in the 80’s. I would not be surprised to learn he dropped that name since “indexing” is more accurate, but that’s what I was referring to. It’s dicey, and in general a last resort, IMHO.

The problem I see with thermal is, it does not give you the clear view of a target that a flashlight does. So if there is any ambiguity as to the identity of what is in front of you, you can’t shoot. For instance, if you do not live alone, or are unaware of the location of anyone you live with, then a clear heat signature is not enough to shoot. A flashlight would be better.

I live alone.

We haven’t talked about the utilitarian function of these fancy gadgets. Lasers are infamous deterrents. You can convince someone to surrender if you paint a dot on their chest. You don’t get that with thermal, but what you do get is the chance to say from the dark “my thermal sight says you’re ready to die. Is this true?”

And to be fair, if you discover someone in your home at night, you should not just execute them. You should make them beg first and maybe surrender. Surrender is much better than killing. As we all know, live bounties are worth more than cold corpses.

How’s that for epic shit talking?

 

[Shadow Reaper]

Back to the issue, one really nice thing about modern FLIR is that you can actually see footsteps after the fact. I dunno if this tiny unit is capable of this, but I’d love to find out. Imagine you’re a cop chasing a thug down a blind alley and could actually see where he ran. That is an Uber crime-fighting tool Batman himself would be proud to own.

BTW, there are a lot of great vids on YT that explain in detail what you can and can’t do with modern FLIR. It has changed the battlefield since it’s available on tiny drones. The very worst thing a soldier in Ukraine can do is pee on a tree. That totally flags the presence of soldiers. Now they dig, pee in the hole and cover it over. They have to if they want to avoid the drones killing them. There’s great footage available of soldiers leaving heat tracks in the snow, even when running. I don’t know if that happens without snow.

What I can imagine though, is stalking silently with your thermal sweeping to discover a target, and turning on your flashlight (torch) after you are lined up behind cover. That gives you the best of both worlds.

This is a brand new tool. It will take some time to discover the best ways to use it.