Kick in the BALLs!

[ColdDog]

Sticking with the Test philosophy - plainly speaking your mind.

Ok... I signed on to Star Citizen in June, 2013. I have put a ton of money in a vision - not a game (not as much as some but still a lot) and in April 2019 we still have a alpha, only a couple systems to explore, and a handful of mission givers. I am all for perfection, but at what point does perfection start to work against itself. I still believe this game can be great, a world view shift in game play, but the longer it takes to get something workable the more resources CIG spends on management and development. Why have we all resigned ourselves to a 10 year production of this game? We should demand more; more efficiency, more production.

Because of this I am writing this thread. Chris has to walk the line between mismanagement and optimization. I know, that in version one it was extremely crude, in version two we started to get some traction, in version three we redesigned and corrected many of the mistakes made in version one and two. My point is, at some point you have to move forward. What was state of the art in GPUs in 2013 is not state of the art in 2019. So, technology moves forward and doesn't care about our game... it grows exponentially every year and the tech of last year is not as good as the tech of this year, the tech of 2013 is not as good as 2019 - this will always be the case. At some point Star Citizen needs to grow a pair of balls and put out content as fast as the demand. Seven years for this with a handful of planets and mission givers, the 2013 version of space invaders called (Arena Commander)... it took 3 years to build the Empire State Building and 2 years to build Hoover Dam. These were tangible objects requiring physical resources (not that computers are not physical, but a hell of a lot easier to move than concrete and steel). The Empire State Building cost in 1931 was $40,948,900 (~$676,000,000 in 2019). Star Citizen just announced they reached the $200,000,000 mark after 6 or 7 years of crowd funding and were still in Alpha with only a road map to help keep the backers at bay - not asking themselves, is this really the best the CIG can do?

Lastly, this begs the question... is CIG only interested in only selling concepts and not the game?

My goal is not to complain, but try to put this in perspective from my point of view.
CD

 

[SoloFlyer]

They have two roadmaps telling us what they're working on and SQ42 is looking at a Beta release in Q2 of 2020. I'm not sure what you mean? They're actively working on the game and telling us what they're working on

 

[ColdDog]

They have two roadmaps telling us what they're working on and SQ42 is looking at a Beta release in Q2 of 2020. I'm not sure what you mean? They're actively working on the game and telling us what they're working on

The Empire State Building cost in 1931 was $40,948,900 (~$676,000,000 in 2019). Star Citizen just announced they reached the $200,000,000 mark after 6 or 7 years of crowd funding and were still in Alpha with only a road map to help keep the backers at bay - not asking themselves, is this really the best the CIG can do?

 

[Mich Angel]

 

[Han Burgundy]

Most games nowadays suck and are about an inch deep, yet new iterations of them get shoved down our throats every year and people have a HABIT of buying em; Not because they're good games, but because there's a '19 on the box. Visions, on the other hand, tend to take time. I think ArcCorp alone proves that the wait will be well worth it. The wait is definitely not for everyone, however, so there's always anthem. It's out for ya. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[ColdDog]

'

Too funny... guess that's a kick in the balls for Montoya :)

 

[ColdDog]

I'm not saying is a bad thing but I bought into this game when my son was 4 and now he is 10... I bought an Orion 4 years ago and still waiting for it to be delivered. Go to your nearest car dealership and tell them that you want to wait 4 years for your car. My question is simple "Is the community pushing for production fast enough?". I would say no, we need to push harder - we accept their timelines without question. If I can't make a internet chair for you in 4 years, you can fire me. I am in the business... this is a question of management.

 

[Capt_Baldi]

Compared to the wait for Half Life 3, this is a breeze.

 

[August]

I bought an Orion 4 years ago and still waiting for it to be delivered. Go to your nearest car dealership and tell them that you want to wait 4 years for your car. My question is simple "Is the community pushing for production fast enough?"

This analogy doesn't work. You're not buying a car from Ford, you've placed a order for a product that doesn't exist, from a company which didn't functionally exist, using technology which didn't exist, and are not just getting the car but the universe to drive it in.

 

[Printimus]

Uhhhh they have come a LOOOOOOOONG way in development since 2013, I would know, I was kickstarting this game back in the day too.

 

[Thraesh]

The Empire State Building cost in 1931 was $40,948,900 (~$676,000,000 in 2019). Star Citizen just announced they reached the $200,000,000 mark after 6 or 7 years of crowd funding and were still in Alpha with only a road map to help keep the backers at bay - not asking themselves, is this really the best the CIG can do?

Fairly sure the example you provided was also funded by the local governments and private businesses for the majority of it's cost at the time then where as this is funded by people like you and me for the most part. The construction on it was done by 3,400 workers compared to a staff of 500 average on this game. They all worked on one objective to build the Empire State Building and we have CIG working on 2 fronts with SC and SQ42.

Take something like Anthem for example it started in 2012, we see currently where that is and how much more work it needs to appeal to it's audience. The gameplay is there, but thats it really for most people

 

[Black Sunder]

Keep in mind that after 2.6.3 they basically scrapped alot of things to build a robust system that could handle the eventual scope and scale they had always wanted instead of building something that would have to be reworked later and at a greater cost.

 

[Printimus]

Fairly sure the example you provided was also funded by the local governments and private businesses for the majority of it's cost at the time then where as this is funded by people like you and me for the most part. The construction on it was done by 3,400 workers compared to a staff of 500 average on this game. They all worked on one objective to build the Empire State Building and we have CIG working on 2 fronts with SC and SQ42.

Take something like Anthem for example it started in 2012, we see currently where that is and how much more work it needs to appeal to it's audience. The gameplay is there, but thats it really for most people

Someone did their research! Nice counter-argument!

 

[atpbx]

The Empire State Building cost in 1931 was $40,948,900 (~$676,000,000 in 2019). Star Citizen just announced they reached the $200,000,000 mark after 6 or 7 years of crowd funding and were still in Alpha with only a road map to help keep the backers at bay - not asking themselves, is this really the best the CIG can do?

For 1.34 billion 2019 pounds (around 1.6 billion dollars) you could have a big tent on some fucked up wasteland in london.

Whats your point?

 

[Shadow Reaper]

Why have we all resigned ourselves to a 10 year production of this game? We should demand more; more efficiency, more production.

I think it is a mistaken notion that demanding anything would ever get you anything. That's not how this works, IMHO. I see no mechanism where you could force any demand on CIG. They would be hard pressed to not laugh at you, though I'm sure they would all act as if taking you quite seriously, just to be polite and all.

. . .after 6 or 7 years of crowd funding and were still in Alpha with only a road map to help keep the backers at bay - not asking themselves, is this really the best the CIG can do?

That's always a loaded question. Ask that question of anyone involved in a huge project and I think you'll find the common thing is to simply not answer the question. Yeah, we can all do better. CIG could require their people to work 9 hour days instead of 8 hour days, and they'd still have good people, but the entire atmosphere would be very different. As the exec responsible for corporate culture, I can tell you that there is indeed a precious balance to be had between productivity and the loyalty that comes from treating your people right. It would take an intense investigatioin to make a fair judgement whether Chris is getting it right and to what degree he could improve, and NONE of us are in possession of the kinds of information necessary to that judgement.

Fairly sure the example you provided was also funded by the local governments and private businesses for the majority of it's cost at the time then where as this is funded by people like you and me for the most part. The construction on it was done by 3,400 workers compared to a staff of 500 average on this game. They all worked on one objective to build the Empire State Building and we have CIG working on 2 fronts with SC and SQ42.

Great point, and note too, both the Hoover Dam and the Empire State Building were constructed during the Great Depression, when there was a glut of workers making next to nothing, who were thrilled to earn a dime. That is not a fair comparison to our current, thriving economy. If for example, Chris were to tell his employees they needed to work 10 hour days or be replaced, they would all quit. If he told them to sit quietly at their desks and do nothing but code, they would all quit. If he told them not to speak to each other, nor take time for jokes, they would all quit. There is a world of ways to get all your employees to quit. There are very few paths to keeping them happy and productive both at once, especially if they're Millennials with no drive, or Gen Y with no common sense. You work with what you've got, and what Chris has got is mostly Millennials and kids.

 

[Montoya]

Someone did their research! Nice counter-argument!

No, its a terrible counter-argument because the original comparison was flawed to begin with.

You can't compare software development to the construction of a building, they are very different.

Apples and oranges.

Let me try!

Elite Dangerous launched a game in 2yrs for $10M.

SpaceX has yet to launch a man in their rocket and has gotten over $1B in funding! What the hell is wrong with them?

 

[Montoya]

Lastly, this begs the question... is CIG only interested in only selling concepts and not the game?

I think Ill do a video response to this.

Its a great topic!

 

[Printimus]

No, its a terrible counter-argument because the original comparison was flawed to begin with.

You can't compare software development to the construction of a building, they are very different.

Apples and oranges.

Let me try!

Elite Dangerous launched a game in 2yrs for $10M.

SpaceX has yet to launch a man in their rocket and has gotten over $1B in funding! What the hell is wrong with them?

To be fair, they did launch a car into space.

 

[Bambooza]

This question while valid really is the bane of software development especially large multiplayer games.

The reality is while content is what everyone look for as a sign of progression what you and I experience as content is really the culmination of the vast majority of the game being completed and is the easier part to flush out.

The other part as a crowed funded game they did not know the scope of the funding nor were able to predicted the massive success and thus huge scope creep that resulted. Since you where there at the start with the kickstarter you know the original scope and in fact the game engine they picked would have easily handled it with out modification. They asked we answered that we wanted the game to become a monster and that is what we are getting. Their original goal of 2 mill of development funding for a single player space shooter to be a spiritual successor of wing commander. It quickly grew to being a 100mill+ idea that quickly outstripped the capabilities of the 3rd party development houses and the picked game engine.

It really was not until the release of 2.0 in December of 2015 that we the investors really started to grasp the scope and scale of the game nor do i believe CIG really understood what needed to be done to the picked game engine to make it functional.

While we do now have some of the major game engine changes (object container streaming) we are still missing server meshing.

The good news is that while it has been a long journey to this point we shall start seeing huge content drops in the game because they have completed the tools and engine modifications required to handle the scope of the game.

I realized i should add examples.

If we look at the changes made from 2.0 to 3.0 and the new features added from 3.0 to 3.4
Hangar Module (release Aug 2013)
Arena Commander (release Dec 2014)
2.0 (released Dec 2015) we got the first taste of the Persistent Universe with Port Olisar, Security Post Kareah, Covalex Shipping Hub, Cry-Astro and Comm Arrays.
2.1 (release Jan 2016) First Mission
2.2 (release Mar 2015) Increase player count from 16 to 24, rudimentary Wanted System
2.4.1 (release Jun 2016) Casaba Shopping Outlet (Char customization from shirts to armor)
2.5 (release Aug 2016) Grim Hex (outlaw base) Item system 2.0, Player Health System 2.0, Wanted level system update.
2.6 (release Dec 2016) we got introduced to mission giver Tessa Bannister (removed in 3.0)
3.0 (release Feb 2018) Planet Surface, (Yela, Daymar, Cellin, Delamar) Revamped mission system, Hint system. Interaction Mode, Inner Thought Prompt, Party launch System. Air Traffic Control. Ship Item 2.0 (Power, heat, shields) Cargo (Buying/Selling) Increase player cap to 50.
3.1 (release Mar 2018) Char Customizer, Service beacons.
3.2 (release Jun 2018) Mining Mechanic, quantum linking, remote turrets
3.3 (release Nov 2018) Object Container Stream(Improves Client graphic performance and memory usage) Scramble races.
3.3.5 (release Nov 2018) Hurston
3.4 (release Dec 2018) Lorville Central Business District.
3.5 (release Soon) ArcCorp, New Flight Model, New character Customization

So you can see from Dec 2015 to Feb of 2018 there was not much to do in the game. With the introduction of 3.0 while there is still not a lot of mission and still missing a lot of exciting features the amount of new content is significant. We are also seeing full fledged mission givers with their own animation and back story starting to be introduced more rapidly. We went from not being able to land to having lots of places to visit that are so large its hard to find friends locations.

The take away is now that they have finished a lot of the game engine modifications and tools support content will continue to ramp up on each release and new features will be introduced. While tools and engine modifications are important its hard to make them showy to the end user.

Its like building a house. The foundation takes a while to go in then it seems sits around for a while. Then suddenly there is a wooden frame of a building that seemed to go up over night. and then it sits at this stage for what seems like a long time as the trades put in the electrical, plumbing and hvac. Then another leap is made as the outside sheeting and sheetrock are put up. At this point it looks like a house but once again there is a long time period before its finished as all the finished polishing goes in.

 

[Talonsbane]

I understand your frustration & your point @ColdDog . This being said, CIG has been doing much better at delivering new content to us ever since the release of 3.0 because they have been working on creating the development tools to help them build new things procedurally while also dealing with them artistically. Would I like for there to be more quest givers around each of the places that have been created so far? In the game World of Warcraft, I've long held the title of "Loremaster". Which meant that up until the Legion expansion, I had completed every single quest possible during that expansion. I don't have any clue how many thousands of quests that I've completed in that game alone. So yes, I would love it if the dev's at CIG would create a vast array of quest givers across the 'Verse that would help encourage players to explore more areas of space the way that WoW did for me. However, making a quest giver with quests for a game like WoW is surely a lot more easy to create than it would be on SC, especially since CIG is doing the whole MoCap thing for most of the important individuals such as NPC quest givers.