Liberator Attack Wing

[Shadow Reaper]

I'm thinking of what's the optimal carry for a Liberator assault wing, especially what ships can fit in the tiny vehicle bays. I confess I was very surprised by the combat ranking awarded the X-85 a couple weeks ago, and think that may be an excellent way forward since it is even more squat than the Razor and carries twice the weaponry. It also has slightly better range and one wonders what will fit in that extra seat. Once salvage is a thing, it may be a pilot can open the canopy, cut a component off a ship and sit it next to him. The ability to salvage at end of battle is a really big deal. The X-85 is also one of the cheapest ships in game, which is key if you're new and buying a ship, or established and buying 6 at a time (for each Lib.)

I don't know anyone who has ever championed the X-85, but there are vids giving it excellent reviews. Now that the Razor was nerfed by taking the second shield, seems needs another look. Either way, I want to plan these pocket carriers to go after Vanduul assets. The Liberator Docking ring probably ought to be connected to a Lancer MIS. That puts 54k damage on the target shield to open any engagement and plenty of Thunderbolts to provide over-watch to all the other attackers. Attacking with say 6 X-85s and 3 Eclipse sounds pretty wild to me, but might work so long as the X-85s can clear the way for the Eclipse's big torps. Could be that's the whole recipe.

I should say, knowing nothing about future targets I certainly favor fighters with the longest range possible. Eclipse have huge range and their attack capability is limited by the range of their escorts. Witness the difference made when the P-51 entered escort service in WWII. You have to have escorts. The X-85 does have enhanced range over almost all other small ships and given its dimensions it is possible 5 or even 6 of them could fit inside a Liberator. Two X-85 shepherding each Eclipse sounds a winning combo to me, especially with Thunderbolts on over-watch. Anyone know if the Vanduul fighters can currently dodge the Thunderbolt?

So an attack group this size needs 3 Eclipse pilots, 6 X-85 pilots, and a Lancer pilot for a total of 10 players. That sounds like the last step before you're in Polaris territory, and if you look at an attack wing with 10 players worth of Harbingers, I'm pretty sure this Liberator/Eclipse package does much more damage at much greater range, with vastly superior stealth and gives players a real home as well.

 

[Lordgarrett99]

a few questions:

-have you determined the hangar size of the liberator to fit such ships?
-what did CIG say would be the optimal/example loadout of a liberator?

the liberator will be very cool when it comes out and useful, no doubt about it, im just curious to see your thoughts on what sort of things we can fit in it :)

 

[Shadow Reaper]

CIG furnished very few details about what will fit inside. We know the lower deck doors are about 25 meters wide because they published a Hornet sitting on the upper deck and it was slightly less wide than the doorway. Using this for scale means the entire lower deck is about 70 meters, give or take. The X-85 is 10X13 meters so three pairs could well fit the lower garage and at just 2 meters tall, it is one of the shortest ships, making parking possible, one hopes. That would leave some extra room for torpedo and missile stocks, and the Lib also has something like 400 SCU cargo space.

 

[Vavrik]

CIG has/had a game package that included some ships and vehicles. The exterior space is great, 2 medium fighters, think like around hornet size and a small (so XS and XXS?) The interior space was designed for ground vehicles such as the Ballista and Nova, but can also carry (I think) very small ships - a couple of X-85 or snub fighters maybe.
I'm really interested in this ship, it fits in nicely with my other ships that haven't yet been delivered... and that includes some combat support of the retrieve, repair, salvage nature.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

For putting ships inside, the biggest issue is likely the height. The Lib is 25 meters tall so the inside hangar is probably not more than 6-7 meters clearance. A 2 meter tall ship should fit. The Lib is 119 meters long, so if you can park on top of the rear ramp you might get 9 X-85s inside. Probably you could fly two Vulcans off it, and I am hoping three Eclipse. You could build most of a planetside mining operation off of it, but I think it would be difficult to replace the Reclaimer with this. When drones come online people are going to be astonished what the Reclaimer can do.

Still pondering the X-85. I think for fighter combat we all prefer the better ship, but if the X-85 actually is the highest main and maneuvering acceleration ship in the verse, it must be astonishingly hard to hit. Looks like it turns tighter than a Blade. If you could actually field three of them for every Eclipse, that's 12 S1 guns, 3 shields, etc. Still wrapping my head around this. Who has flown the X-85? Please tell us what you think? Would you be content to dance with a Vanduul Blade, Glaive, etc. in it?

 

[Sky Captain]

I'm thinking of what's the optimal carry for a Liberator assault wing...

The Kraken, as a huge ship, was advertised with Dragonfly bays, but the Liberator feels much more like a pirate's style carrier.

So I'm with you: I'd be tempted to load it with as many X-85s as possible and sail into battle with a mission of creating many-target-chaos.

...with a Tonk on deck for good measure to shoot its big gun.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

I am really looking for an attack force to play through the Sons of Orion storyline, attacking the Vanduul and tipping the tides of war with them. The Kraken is very expensive--between 3 and 4 times the cost of the Lib. I forget the numbers, but for skirmishing, probably three Eclipse flying off the top of a Lib is your most reasonable baseline. If you look carefully at the drawing, the starboard is designed for the 2 man crew and the port is designed for up to 16 passengers, but really only 14 pilots (suits). This is enough to support 12-13 ships especially when you add the 4 beds on the MIS.

For method, the Lib jumps into a system and sends its scouts on stealth recon. When they find a target all but the one that has joy return and refuel while the lucky one shadows its prey in stealth. Then the 3 Eclipse jump up to 60 Mkm with their fighter escort and MIS overwatch, and try to get their torps all on target. This is much harder than it sounds since torps can be shot down, but if they all land 3 Eclipse ought to be able to kill 2 Void Bombers, which we know fly in pairs. They likewise ought to be able to kill a Harvester. They're not enough to kill a Marauder, but 2 Libs might.

I'm looking at Vanduul scout ambush and trade route disruption under a different set of criteria, but certainly flying a single Mantis off the Lib has serious applications. The Mantis is pretty big and requires a completely different Lib ensemble. There are also Polaris support functions I want to explore for the Lib. It seems about the largest combat group play platform before you get to the Polaris, and putting them together also has some interesting surprises to offer. I like the dozen or so player group size, and you really need more than this for a Polaris.

Main point is, to range across Vanduul space you need a ship that can carry both bombers and their escorts. The extended range of the Eclipse really doesn't matter. It's the range of the escorts that is the limiting factor. If you can use the Lib to jump into the system, say Orion or Leer; and the Q drives on the ships it carries to jump across the system, you can expect to put reasonable fire down on targets. The problem seems to me is nearly always that carriers do not have sufficient space for both bombers and their escorts, so the solution may well be tiny escorts like the X-85. Whoda thunk? I can't find ANY combat reviews of the X-85. Seems like the least popular ship in SC. I would never have discovered it except for the tier ranking I posted a week or two ago shocked me by rating it A class. It is apparently extremely hard to hit and easy to put fire on target with. It is also wondrously inexpensive, which matters if you want to fly 9 of them. 4,500 aUEC for 9 stealth recon scout escorts is stuff you can buy with game money.

X-85s are not as fast as Blades in SCM or afterburner, but if there are three of them for each Blade, that's an advantage combat pilots can optimize and they are very stealthy, so they get surprise, battlefield position and first shots. Blades will shoot down torps given the opportunity, so you really cannot do this without escorts. Sources differ concerning the radar on Void Bombers. Some say S2 and some say S3, but no one has said Cap class (like the Polaris). This means an Eclipse can probably approach up to about 6km before showing on Void Bomber sensors. If they lock and fire at 6km, the torps will take about 11 seconds to reach their targets and be in range of the bomber's defensive weapons for about 6 seconds. So if you remove the fighter screen, you have a fair chance to land every torp on target.

 

[vahadar]

I'm flying the 85x every week. For hardflight essentially alongside the arrow and the raven, but not for PvP.

Unfortunately, this is no PvP ship, its turn rate and side strafe is poor and you will loose any turn battle.
But it is an okay ship for zoom and boom, still a bit useless as it has poor DPS, not enough to kill bigger PvP targets on its own with this tactic, as they regen shield after each pass.

It's not a p-52 or p-72, though it could shine within a swarm of 85x. Not tested that though. That is just theory, and practice has always shown that arrows/gladius or talon dominate any PvP fight.

Plus the fact that the pilot seat is not centered makes it weird to fly in combat.

 

[Richard Bong]

The Eclipse is unlikely to fit on the forward pad. It is one of the largest ships that fit on an XS pad, and the front pad is XXS.

While it might fit, it isn't something I would count on it or plan on until the Liberator is released.

 

[Randson]

Not to knock your idea at all, but with the amount of people invested in this idea, I think Id rather have a larger main ship and use that. So many people for such small guns, your damage/pilot will very small. Nevermind the fact that the Liberator has very little defenses of its own anyway, so the fighters ARE its defense. Too much personnel investment, too little defense imo.

 

[Richard Bong]

Not to knock your idea at all, but with the amount of people invested in this idea, I think Id rather have a larger main ship and use that. So many people for such small guns, your damage/pilot will very small. Nevermind the fact that the Liberator has very little defenses of its own anyway, so the fighters ARE its defense. Too much personnel investment, too little defense imo.

The objective is to put Eclipses and escorts in the strking range. Currently 2 Eclipses can destroy an Idris, with little warning. Will that continue? That depends on how Torpedoes balance out.

I, personally, would plan on 2 Liberators or a Kraken loaded with Sabres and Eclipses.

 

[Richard Bong]

If the goal is Eclipse escorts and scouts that are Size 1, then why the 85X over the Razor EX?

 

[Richard Bong]

CIG has/had a game package that included some ships and vehicles. The exterior space is great, 2 medium fighters, think like around hornet size and a small (so XS and XXS?) The interior space was designed for ground vehicles such as the Ballista and Nova, but can also carry (I think) very small ships - a couple of X-85 or snub fighters maybe.
I'm really interested in this ship, it fits in nicely with my other ships that haven't yet been delivered... and that includes some combat support of the retrieve, repair, salvage nature.

Melted my Carrack for the Liberator as soon as it was released. I saw the specs and didn't think twice. :)
Top two pads are XS (size 1 and 2 ships,), front pad is XXS (size one ships), two interior pads are Medium vehicle.
The metrics difference between Medium Vehicle and XXS pad is supposed to be about a meter in height. Which one is taller was not specified.

Can you fit more than one ship per pad? Maybe.
Can you fit a size 2 ship on the front or internal pads? Maybe.

 

[Vavrik]

Melted my Carrack for the Liberator as soon as it was released. I saw the specs and didn't think twice. :)
Top two pads are XS (size 1 and 2 ships,), front pad is XXS (size one ships), two interior pads are Medium vehicle.
The metrics difference between Medium Vehicle and XXS pad is supposed to be about a meter in height. Which one is taller was not specified.

Can you fit more than one ship per pad? Maybe.
Can you fit a size 2 ship on the front or internal pads? Maybe.

I love the specs on the ship too. When I bought it, I ended up melting some ships I wasn't using at all, and bought the Liberator Strike Pack: It came with the Liberator, a Gladiator, an F7C-M Super Hornet , and a Hurricane. and I think it was a Rover. I upgraded the Hurricane to an Ion, and the Rover I already had bought years ago so I changed that to a Prospector.

I kept a Sentinel and the Gladius, and also a Nova, and Ballista.
Then to my utter horror I got a "congratulatory email" that said I'd earned an F8C Lightning... and IAE wasn't finished. That scared me to death, what the hell am I spending on this game?

I don't have any desire to buying an X-85 or any of the similar ships, but I don't begrudge anyone their interests.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

If the goal is Eclipse escorts and scouts that are Size 0, then why the 85X over the Razor EX?

My interest began when it was ranked as an A class fighter in a vid I posted a week or two ago.

View: https://youtu.be/LGUNVMxhOFo?t=1317


The X-85 has twice th guns of the Razor, and given such a high ranking, I thought it might be a better choice. However, like the Razor it has had its second shield removed. Given Vahadar's review I think there needs to be another plan. This changes things drastically. I still think it is worth investigating whether we can cut the wings off the Razor for use in space alone. That would give it an astonishingly small profile to fit a huge number inside the Lib, but we can't cut yet and there's no guarantee cutting off the wings will allow us to stack them closer inside a ship. Until we know better it appears the best choice is now the M50.

Given M50 has a second shield, has a much better view than the Razor, has greater flight time than the Razor, is faster than the Blade so can do stealth recon much more easily than the X-85, meets my stealth requirements (under 6k signature), is very short in height, and fits literally twice the number ships as a Gladius, looks like the M50 wins.

I'm not sure everyone understood, the Arrow and Gladius are not in the running. They are too large and especially too tall. They're fine for an Idris but not for inside a Liberator.

M50s would need to be staggered in order to fit 9 of them, but it's pretty obvious that many will fit with lots of space left on the flight deck. Unfortunately they cost 6 times as much as the X-85.

Yeah, I know this falls apart if the Lib can't fit 3 Eclipse. Only time will tell. If only 2 Eclipse will fit then I don't think this is a cost effective platform. You'd be better off to just jump to the Polaris, which is capable of being much more effective than 3 Eclipse and 9 escorts.

M50 offers the huge benefit that it can fly around a target until it runs dry of fuel and avoid all injury by virtue of its speed, so can be used to light up targets for both Eclipse and Polaris torp attacks. Blades can't catch it so it is immune to most kinds of danger so long as it has a great pilot. I love that CIG adjusted the M50 signature down. It used to be much higher.

Liberator $600
3x Eclipse $900
9x M50 $900
= shit, shit, shit, shit, shit. . .buy a fucking Polaris!

 

[Richard Bong]

My interest began when it was ranked as an A class fighter in a vid I posted a week or two ago.

View: https://youtu.be/LGUNVMxhOFo?t=1317


The X-85 has twice th guns of the Razor, and given such a high ranking, I thought it might be a better choice. However, like the Razor it has had its second shield removed. Given Vahadar's review I think there needs to be another plan. This changes things drastically. I still think it is worth investigating whether we can cut the wings off the Razor for use in space alone. That would give it an astonishingly small profile to fit a huge number inside the Lib, but we can't cut yet and there's no guarantee cutting off the wings will allow us to stack them closer inside a ship. Until we know better it appears the best choice is now the M50.

Given M50 has a second shield, has a much better view than the Razor, has greater flight time than the Razor, is faster than the Blade so can do stealth recon much more easily than the X-85, meets my stealth requirements (under 6k signature), is very short in height, and fits literally twice the number ships as a Gladius, looks like the M50 wins.

I'm not sure everyone understood, the Arrow and Gladius are not in the running. They are too large and especially too tall. They're fine for an Idris but not for inside a Liberator.

M50s would need to be staggered in order to fit 9 of them, but it's pretty obvious that many will fit with lots of space left on the flight deck. Unfortunately they cost 6 times as much as the X-85.

Yeah, I know this falls apart if the Lib can't fit 3 Eclipse. Only time will tell. If only 2 Eclipse will fit then I don't think this is a cost effective platform. You'd be better off to just jump to the Polaris, which is capable of being much more effective than 3 Eclipse and 9 escorts.

M50 offers the huge benefit that it can fly around a target until it runs dry of fuel and avoid all injury by virtue of its speed, so can be used to light up targets for both Eclipse and Polaris torp attacks. Blades can't catch it so it is immune to most kinds of danger so long as it has a great pilot. I love that CIG adjusted the M50 signature down. It used to be much higher.

Liberator $600
3x Eclipse $900
9x M50 $900
= shit, shit, shit, shit, shit. . .buy a fucking Polaris!

The Razer EX is carrying a pair of size 2 weapons instead of 4 size 1 weapons.
The Razor EX also has a stealth skin, not just stealth components.

 

[Vavrik]

Liberator $600
3x Eclipse $900
9x M50 $900
= shit, shit, shit, shit, shit. . .buy a fucking Polaris!

In other words, the use case and design do not meet. That is a reasonable outcome, and it is always better to find out before you try to make it work.
Some of what's wrong come to mind immediately:

• You don't normally use a pocket carrier to lead invasions.
• The Lib can't carry 3 Eclipse. Just two would fit, assuming they can lift enough of their wings to fit. The third exterior pad is a size smaller.
• The financial accounting seems to indicate a problem with costs. Even if the idea could work, nobody would expect the owner of the transport ship to pay for the cost of the actual fighting force. Someone might want to look at it that way, but that is not necessarily the only way.

 

[Richard Bong]

• You don't normally use a pocket carrier to lead invasions.
• The Lib can't carry 3 Eclipse. Just two would fit, assuming they can lift enough of their wings to fit. The third exterior pad is a size smaller.

It isn't an invasion, but it is a deep strike. We used to plan those with nothing more than a flight of AH-64's.

It is a similar, but more ambitious use case, than we have in mind for my Liberator, which is use it for long range bounty hunting missions with our Hawks.
Because of the scope it will require more than just a Liberator.

The Eclipse fits on an XS pad, since it is a size 2 ship (Odyssey Q&A). Because it is one of the larger Size 2 ships, I agree that it isn't likely to fit on the XXS pad on the front.

Can you jam more than two on there, under the if it sits it fits principal? Maybe, but flight ops is likely to get very messy and we won't know before the Liberator is released.

 

[Richard Bong]

Liberator $600
3x Eclipse $900
9x M50 $900
= shit, shit, shit, shit, shit. . .buy a fucking Polaris!

There is a different option for this mission.
Starfarer, M2 and Vulcan. Your number of Eclipses and Sabres would only be limited by Quantum fuel carried by the Starfarer.

 

[Vavrik]

Can you jam more than two on there, under the if it sits it fits principal? Maybe, but flight ops is likely to get very messy and we won't know before the Liberator is released.

Thing is I'm just glad someone (you guys) is thinking about different use cases for the ship. All I came up with was as support for a long range exploration mission which has a very high chance of turning into PVP, or using it as a moving and delivery truck which doesn't sound like PVP... but sounds like a business opportunity.