Snubs are a whole different category... We need someone with a PHD in order to fully understand them.
Light/Heavy/Medium Fighters
- Thread starter Blind Owl
- Start date
JackAvalon
Space Marshal
The concept of light/medium/heavy went out the door with the Buccaneer and Hurricane. Originally, the weight class of each fighter was a simple formula. Weapons and armor at the cost of speed and maneuverability. The more guns and armor, the more heavier u are. Now though we have "glass cannons". These ships punch above their weight class because everyone want big guns and maneuverability. Personally, I don't like these ships. These are the iwin ships that people wanted and now they throw the order of things out the window. Honestly I feel like balance issues will occur because of ships like these. Mainly because something has to be upgraded more now to counter the iwin ships. I just hope it isn't the starter ships that end up suffering from this because if they are too far from the Buccaneer or Hurricane then they won't be worth much at all. Just my thoughts. /endofline
I think it's best to not think of these ships as your common cookie cutter ships but more as the sum of a complex list of roles.
Right. So classing them doesn't really work. I'm detecting a pattern here...
Oh buddy, I cannot wait for the Vanguard to get some loving. I love mine.
As for the making a decision, yes, I totally understand wait for all systems to be implemented. I'm more looking for people's thoughts and options at this point. I like the discussion. :)
Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
I don't think it matters much what class we would assign any particular fighter, since whatever rule we have for this we will find exceptions to; but I do think categorizing by mass is simple and insightful. If we leave dedicated bombers like the Tally and Eclipse aside, but include fighter-bombers like the Vanguard and Gladiator, broken down by weight class looks something like this:
Light
X-85 8k
Blade 10k
M-50 12k
Bucky 14k
Mustang 13-17k
Kartu-Al 15k
Gladius 16k
Medium
Hurricane 16k
Sabre 18k
Avenger 18k
Heavy
Defender 18k
Tana 19k
300 series 20k
Hornet 22-23k
Fighter-Bomber
Gladiator 26k
Vanguard 40-52k
Gunboat
Redeemer 42k
These classifications in history have varied widely in use, even by those in the same service. It is like the term "Corvette" or "Destroyer" in that each time it is used, it is redefined. Is a Corvette the smallest "ship of the line" or the largest ship that is not yet a "ship of the line"? No one knows, but everyone thinks they know. Same here.
What is more important than the classification is to note the general purpose of a given group and ask how well any given fighter performs in that group. Light fighters are intended for mass attacks and throw away. That's why TIE fighters have no shields. One hit and they are down. Most of these Light Fighters are this way, but so is the Hurricane, so why would I say the Hurricane is a Medium Fighter? Well just because! I think it hits too hard to be a "Light" fighter. F-16 is a good example of this class in today's world.
Medium fighters are generally where you will find the "air superiority" or in our case "space superiority" fighters, intended to go to combat with anything else and win. The F-22 is an example of this. While it cannot carry large amounts of ordinance, it can turn circles around pretty much everyone else. It is there to win, and sacrifices multi-mission capability to do so.
Heavy Fighters have traditionally been long range and "multi-mission" fighters like the P-51, F-4 and F-18. They are the ones who carry the hard hitting but not quite bomber type loads, and are most often fitted with electronic warfare packages like the F-18 Growler.
Fighter-Bombers are not much in use today, but the F-111 was a near perfect version of this small bomber. It is probably no surprise the Vanguard looks like an F-111 because that is what a real fighter-bomber looks like.
Gunboats are rare these days, and really have more marine corollaries than in the air, but once upon a time, US air strategy included gunboats intended to shoot fighters out of the sky. During WWII, the fabled P-61 "Black Widow" widowed many by its use of advanced radar used to track, hunt, and kill aerial targets. The P-61 was famous for finding it's prey at a time and place were simple darkness ought to have been enough for concealment, and those birds justified their unusual size by the need to carry the air-to-air radar. They were big, but they were as nimble, fast and had as much range as the fighters they stalked. Its chief advantage was it knew where it's prey was before it's prey knew it was coming for them, so encounters were short. That is, all its encounters save those with the Foo Fighters, which to this day no one understands nor can explain.
Light
X-85 8k
Blade 10k
M-50 12k
Bucky 14k
Mustang 13-17k
Kartu-Al 15k
Gladius 16k
Medium
Hurricane 16k
Sabre 18k
Avenger 18k
Heavy
Defender 18k
Tana 19k
300 series 20k
Hornet 22-23k
Fighter-Bomber
Gladiator 26k
Vanguard 40-52k
Gunboat
Redeemer 42k
These classifications in history have varied widely in use, even by those in the same service. It is like the term "Corvette" or "Destroyer" in that each time it is used, it is redefined. Is a Corvette the smallest "ship of the line" or the largest ship that is not yet a "ship of the line"? No one knows, but everyone thinks they know. Same here.
What is more important than the classification is to note the general purpose of a given group and ask how well any given fighter performs in that group. Light fighters are intended for mass attacks and throw away. That's why TIE fighters have no shields. One hit and they are down. Most of these Light Fighters are this way, but so is the Hurricane, so why would I say the Hurricane is a Medium Fighter? Well just because! I think it hits too hard to be a "Light" fighter. F-16 is a good example of this class in today's world.
Medium fighters are generally where you will find the "air superiority" or in our case "space superiority" fighters, intended to go to combat with anything else and win. The F-22 is an example of this. While it cannot carry large amounts of ordinance, it can turn circles around pretty much everyone else. It is there to win, and sacrifices multi-mission capability to do so.
Heavy Fighters have traditionally been long range and "multi-mission" fighters like the P-51, F-4 and F-18. They are the ones who carry the hard hitting but not quite bomber type loads, and are most often fitted with electronic warfare packages like the F-18 Growler.
Fighter-Bombers are not much in use today, but the F-111 was a near perfect version of this small bomber. It is probably no surprise the Vanguard looks like an F-111 because that is what a real fighter-bomber looks like.
Gunboats are rare these days, and really have more marine corollaries than in the air, but once upon a time, US air strategy included gunboats intended to shoot fighters out of the sky. During WWII, the fabled P-61 "Black Widow" widowed many by its use of advanced radar used to track, hunt, and kill aerial targets. The P-61 was famous for finding it's prey at a time and place were simple darkness ought to have been enough for concealment, and those birds justified their unusual size by the need to carry the air-to-air radar. They were big, but they were as nimble, fast and had as much range as the fighters they stalked. Its chief advantage was it knew where it's prey was before it's prey knew it was coming for them, so encounters were short. That is, all its encounters save those with the Foo Fighters, which to this day no one understands nor can explain.
Last edited:
Han Burgundy
Space Marshal
Heavy Fighters? Like Roy 'Big Country' Nelson here?
We'll take Owl as an example because Sober Owl did all of the work for him
These almost like up but as you can see, none of these really have a single role like heavy fighter or Medium fighter.
The Vanguard isn't just a heavy fighter because the Sentinel also does e-warfare like the Herald, which is a completely different ship. I don't thing that it's right to compare the two ships together because the Vanguard is inferior in almost every category but we can compare how well they perform a single role.
These almost like up but as you can see, none of these really have a single role like heavy fighter or Medium fighter.
The Vanguard isn't just a heavy fighter because the Sentinel also does e-warfare like the Herald, which is a completely different ship. I don't thing that it's right to compare the two ships together because the Vanguard is inferior in almost every category but we can compare how well they perform a single role.
Hmmmm, interesting. I've never been interested in glass cannons, as I tend to take hits in the name of the kill. That would make the SH and the Vanguard more my style. But I've played the Bucky a bit (Vanduul swarm) and can honestly say I really enjoyed her. Beat VS my first time flying the ship. So perhaps maybe I'm better than I think? Haha, or is the ship just that good?
I haven't honestly played the game much at all in the last year. I guess it's probably time to get into the verse and AC and hone my skills for 3.0. Anyways, I'm getting off topic here.
So again, I'm seeing that the idea of light/medium/heavy is becoming antiquated.
Thanks for your break down. I appreciate it.
Truth. OK, so that being said, one must start to define the roles, then pick the ships that fits said roles.
So query Mr Tank: what roles would you define, or is that somewhat that mist wait until full mechanic implementation?
Holy shit. Now the responses are flying in. Haha. @Shadow Reaper, I'm onto your post next.
Thanks lads. Keep em coming.
Thanks lads. Keep em coming.
I can't agree with the buc and khartu in the same category the buc would tear the khartu apart in seconds it would have to be at a minimum medium weight class or not lol
So breaking them down by weight class does work, however, from what I'm seeing (from you and others) and beginning to understand, roles are far more important;
-Space superiority
-Gunship
-Fighter/Bomber
-Multi-role fighters
-Swarm fighters/mass attacks
Any others I may be missing in the context of this game (as it stands now)?
Roles being the case, I need to switch my thinking on combat fleet layout, and focus more on the role rather than my traditional fighter focus.
FYI - Just read up on the Foo Fighters: that's an interesting story. Thanks for that tidbit.
I'd define them by the jobs they can perform.
Fighter is generic, so why not break that up some. Interception, bombing, attack, defense seems good. I'm sure others can do better.
Take a Herald (low number of jobs makes for a great example). It has data running, e-warfare (hacking?), and drag racing. Those are 3 jobs that the Herald does.
Freelacer is mercantile, defense, then depending on the variant missile boat, bulk cargo, exploration, or undeclared.
Vanguard is ... Difficult. Next!
Hornet is attack and defensive fighter with either stealth, mini hauler, or whatever the hell the tracker does.
Cutlass is attack, salvage, and either medical, bounty, or raider depending on what you have in the back.
Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
Yeah. Even if you keep the easiest distinctions between fighters and bombers, there are other categories that may or may not be included in "multi-mission". Wild Weasel EM Warfare like the Growler are "multi-mission", but in space you have other tasks you do not have in the air, such as mine-layers. Some of those ships may be small. No way yet to know what CIG has in mind for that. Could require a larger ship, like a Tally, or could happen off the back of a Gladiator. Who knows? And spy planes run a whole gamut of forms in shape and size. Should the Terrapin be on this list? I certainly don't know. . .
Some of our thinking needs to reflect aircraft uses, but some is naval, so it is a mish-mosh. Point is, these categories are determined by mission. If you are a part of an inexpensive navy or air-force, you are probably flying an F-16. That's what TIE fighters and the Vanduul Blades are. Though we may love the maneuverability of these little birds, they are bought because they are cheap and expendable. Yeah, maybe the Gladius is a Hornet killer, but it is in the skies because it's owners could not afford larger, more capable, more survivable craft like the Sabre.
I dunno anything... it's all meta.. so... if you get 1 of everything ship, you can't go wrong.. right?
WHAT IS THIS X???
Driving me nuts :p
edit: Oh, mining haha. Was going full autism mode
Driving me nuts :p
edit: Oh, mining haha. Was going full autism mode
I dunno anything... it's all meta.. so... if you get 1 of everything ship, you can't go wrong.. right?
My personal classification for light/medium/heavy goes "How many weapons/missiles does it carry and how much punishment can it take?" That means I still consider glass cannons to be "medium' and something like the Vanguard to be "Heavy' and the Buc to be on the upper high end 'light' with granularity in there as well across the categories.
When this is finally shown again, now that the rework is probably done, it'll be a Heavy more than likely. VANDUUL SUPERIORITY!
When this is finally shown again, now that the rework is probably done, it'll be a Heavy more than likely. VANDUUL SUPERIORITY!
I've seen this one before and I've been very interested in it but last I heard about it was that it was not going to be sold.(Maybe another marketing trick) I especially love the colors of the ship.My personal classification for light/medium/heavy goes "How many weapons/missiles does it carry and how much punishment can it take?" That means I still consider glass cannons to be "medium' and something like the Vanguard to be "Heavy' and the Buc to be on the upper high end 'light' with granularity in there as well across the categories.
When this is finally shown again, now that the rework is probably done, it'll be a Heavy more than likely. VANDUUL SUPERIORITY!
Missiles is just slang for " miss alls".My personal classification for light/medium/heavy goes "How many weapons/missiles does it carry and how much punishment can it take?" That means I still consider glass cannons to be "medium' and something like the Vanguard to be "Heavy' and the Buc to be on the upper high end 'light' with granularity in there as well across the categories.
When this is finally shown again, now that the rework is probably done, it'll be a Heavy more than likely. VANDUUL SUPERIORITY!
Get rockets. They are superior :)