Logistic & Security challenges of Interstellar Mining

Bishop

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Warning: Big wall of text after the pictures.

As everyone loves an easy overview, here three pictures that sum up how I personally foresee to make the most of the Organisation Hull E, Mining Platforms, with short notations, followed by more detailed Questions.

At this point, I personally believe that it might come to an undertaking of the following scale:

If you are lucky and you need only fly to one Market at which you can sell all your stuff at once! Otherwise it will be more complex.

Considering ships and crew, for if the above would be approximately how it will come true within an organised supply chain system

1 x Hull E
1 x Hull D
1 x Bengal (with multiple fighters)
1 x Idris
3 to 4 Orion Mining platforms
3 to 4 Protection Squads
1 - 2 Stand by Squad(s)

we are talking, at full staffing, at least about 50+ people cooperating within a supply chain.
In order to keep that running smooth I personally would think that following might work in terms of an organisation structure:



Or, if you prefer it more the within a Test Squadron View:



I guess you would have the Hull A, B, Freelancer Max or Constellation Taurus run with the more expensive ores in smaller portions in order to split the risk.

---

Now the text I warned you about:


As since yesterday there are a couple of Transporters (Hull A to D) and an Organisation Hull E next to Orion Mining platforms and Freelancers effectively purchased, I was wondering how this will all work and interact with each other.

I guess those of you working in Logistics would agree that you cant just simply boot up your PC and decide to make a quick spin with your Hull E, while expecting that your Orion Mining Platforms will always have something ready to load for you and that there is always a quick response from Organisation Muscle when you need it, without a certain level of organisation regarding the flow of communication and responsibility.

With only 1 Hull E making what is called a Milk Run, or in our case Beer Run, you have the first Mining platform probably already standing around annoyed before the Hull E is full at the last Orion, cause their cargo bay is already full again and they cant take on any-more additional ore till the Hull E is back. Therefore following points are ripe for discussion now:

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The Challenges,
for which some one will need to make a decision one day.
Therefore already now my questions to the Test Squadron leaders of Logistic

1.) Whom to call if the bad guys/girls show up?
I personally say, why risk it ... assign a proper escort {no not such an escort} to each Hull D or E and keep a couple of Auroras, Mustangs and Hornets on standby and have some one, like a M.O.B [Master of Beer] over-viewing the whole show and call the shots.
What is your plan that can solve this without a top down Organisation Flow?


2.) What's the Cash?
Hence the profit only flows when the Ore is sold to the NPC, how will the split work before that.
per Hour that one has participated &
per Functionality that this person had &
per Equipment one brought to the plate/game ?
(Cuts for Organisation Equipment goes naturally in the Organisation bank)
or
even split of the entire loot at the end of the day,
no matter what the role and equipment per Head
for everyone that participated at least for one hour
or
the Hull E Captain (or any other Transporter) will have to buy it from the Orion Captain?
or
... ???

What will be the best solution for a fair approach that works at Test Squadron?

3.) How long will this run ?
A.) This is a 24/7 thing. We just will figure out the shifts.
B.) A 4 to 6 hours event per day for which you need to sign up.
C.) As B, but only Friday to Sunday.
D.) ... ?
What scale of an undertaking do you think is Test Squadron big enough at the moment?

4.) What if I loose my ship or have other expenses ?
A.) Part of the job.
Only Organisation Equipment repairs will be financed,
before the profit split.
B.) We give you a 10 to X % of the true repair costs,
before the profit will be split,
depending on the role and situation if you where ordered to sacrifice yourself.
C.) We pay in full or as much as we can and if there is no profit left in the end,... well tough.
D.) .... ?
Which way do you think Test Squadron might go in relation to that?

5.) What kind of "Beer Run" other than above you could think of?
a.) One hull D or E always going back and forward with less organisation than described above.
b.) The above, but multiple Beer Runs at once, with synchronised departures, from different stages.
c.) .... ? (Consider that it needs to keep everyone's assets save and the Ore + Cash flowing)
What way do you think Test Squadron should/will plan for?

Hope to have sparked a stimulating Logistic discussion with that.
 
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NKato

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Hull E would be overkill. Also, the Orion doesn't appear to come equipped with cargo containers for the ore that would allow ship-to-ship cargo transfers.

</plan foiled>

It would be better to just have a standby defense team in-system while the team of Orions do their thing, fill up their hold, make sure the mining sites are bookmarked, head back to the station to offload the ore, then repeat the cycle of mining.

The Orion has an absurdly large cargo hold for ore anyway, it's pretty obvious that CIG intended this so we wouldn't need transport ships to move the ore.

So here's what my personal structure for a large TEST mining op would be:

Defense Team: 1 Idris-P, equipped with a minimum of two Gladius fighters (loaded up with heavy ammunition), one Gladiator, and one Hornet.

Alternative Defense Asset: 2 Hornets, at a minimum, would have to park near the Orions and power off some of their equipment to save fuel while keeping sensors on.

Mining Team: Minimum of 3 Orions.

Combat assets prepared in advance at the station or planetside, so that any nearby TESTies can respond by hurrying to the staged assets, jump in, and take off to defend our Orions.

The Idris-P would watch over the Orions at a safe distance, not too close to scare off the dumber pirates, but far enough to bait the small fry into attacking.

The Orion should be able to continue their work with minimal interruption while letting their automated turrets keep the enemy pirates at bay, as the Defense Team moves to engage with their fighters.

We don't really need a complicated structure for mining ops. Just get to the point where our advance scouts discovered the mineral deposits, get that ore, go to station, sell. Done.

Also, re. profit splits, that'll probably be a per-operation basis, we are unlikely to institute a fixed rate in TEST.
 
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Bishop

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Actually.

A Hull-E has been fund raised for and is part of the organisation,
https://testsquadron.com/goals/misc-hull-variants-e-fund-org-hangar.6/
therefore I personally think it will require a plan by the Logistic Department to make proper use of it,
cause its just too massive, for taking it on a quick spin, isn't it?

Plus - everything is transferable and modular - from the smallest cup up to the SCU and the Ores within.
Therefore again - it is just a question for the right loading crew and equipment to get it from the Orion to the Hull E.
 

NKato

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Actually.

A Hull-E has been fund raised for and is part of the organisation,
https://testsquadron.com/goals/misc-hull-variants-e-fund-org-hangar.6/
therefore I personally think it will require a plan by the Logistic Department to make proper use of it,
cause its just too massive, for taking it on a quick spin, isn't it?

Plus - everything is transferable and modular - from the smallest cup up to the SCU and the Ores within.
Therefore again - it is just a question for the right loading crew and equipment to get it from the Orion to the Hull E.
We know. What you don't understand is that the Orion has specialized cargo holds for ore, and these holds do not appear to support the new cargo system that was revealed the other day. I'm guessing the Orion will be more like a hopper car:



Where you'd be unloading the ore via a chute to the processing station. A cargo container does not have this capability, and unloading an Orion would take forever if it used the standard cargo system.

In the end, the Orions are self-contained resource harvesting and logistical platforms that are intended to be capable of operating in stand-alone status (i.e. without any support). So running an Orion in most scenarios would just require taking the appropriate precautions.

I'm not willing to use a Hull E for ore transfers. That's a huge sitting duck right there, and too big of a risk. I'd rather keep the Hull E stationed at the planet, ready to haul the processed ore wherever it needs to go for selling.

In my experience, keeping the operation structure simple has proven to be more efficient.
 

Bishop

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the Orion doesn't appear to come equipped with cargo containers for the ore
Really? It though does look like the load for exactly one Hull D when looking at the pictures of it.
May I ask where do you have this information from ?

In my experience, keeping the operation structure simple has proven to be more efficient.
Easy for application and implementation, but not efficient.
Planed several complicated supply chains already in my life, once the toothing problems of the transition where over the return of investment as well as overall efficiency was always bigger than a simple A to B (go there empty - drive back full model)
Well, but true if reloading from Orion to Hull B will not be possible then I guess question 5 is on ice till this is cleared.

I'm not willing to use a Hull E for ore transfers. That's a huge sitting duck right there
Well, that's why I personally think that an escort, by the Organisation owned Muscle in form of rotating Fleets would be required.
The Orions are sitting Ducks as well, from this perspective and probably also require protection.

I'd rather keep the Hull E stationed at the planet, ready to haul the processed ore wherever it needs to go for selling
I dont belive running from NPC to NPC will be the only thing you can do with a Hull E
 
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NKato

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Really? It though does look like the load for exactly one Hull D when looking at the pictures of it.
May I ask where do you have this information from ?
Conjecture, based on the fact that the swingy-army-things do not appear to be standard cargo containers like what you find on the Hull series.

Easy for application and implementation, but not efficient.
Planed several complicated supply chains already in my life, once the toothing problems of the transition where over the return of investment as well as overall efficiency was always bigger than a simple A to B (go there empty - drive back full model)
Well, but true if reloading from Orion to Hull B will not be possible then I guess question 5 is on ice till this is cleared.
What do you think about Question 1 - 4 then ?
Question 1: Obviously we'll have in-house squads that can provide an escort service.

Question 2: Payout splits are something I'm not willing to discuss until we see whether or not CIG has come up with a solution for this. We'll cross this bridge when we get to it.

Question 3: 24/7 seems like a foolhardy thing to do. We are not a pure economic/mining organization, and requiring a 24/7 operations branch would cause personnel burnout much faster than is acceptable. (Speaking from experience in other games)

Question 4: Org ships will be on LTI anyway, so they're going to be reimbursed automatically (provided that we didn't lose them in a colossally stupid way), and equipment losses under the Org inventory would be covered by the org itself; however, any personal ship losses will be covered by the owner's own pocketbook. You are responsible for what you own, and you're also responsible for making the money you need to be able to pay for these incidental expenses. We aren't discounting the possibility of a TEST_Free style repository of equipment and hulls for those who are new to the game/org and/or have landed on bad times.

Well, that's why I personally think that an escort, by the Organisation owned Muscle in form of rotating Fleets would be required.
The Orions are sitting Ducks as well, from this perspective and probably also require protection.
That's a given.

I dont belive running from NPC to NPC will be the only thing you can do with a Hull E
What I'm thinking of is like this: Mining Site -> Hub -> Hull E -> Final Destination

Basically, the Orion delivers its full ore load to a hub that can process the ore - or transfer it into cargo containers via an automated process, and then those cargo containers are transferred to a Hull E that will then transport the ore to its final destination.

Again, while we are big, we are not going to force people to man certain roles and positions because we "need" a 24/7 infrastructure running all the time. It's better to take the approach of having something that's quick to spool up on-demand, and wind it down when it's not needed.

24/7 is just not something we're going to encourage. Everyone will have things they want to do for themselves, ya know. TEST isn't about TEST, but about TEST's members.
 

Bishop

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Agree that 24/7 is outright cracy ... just thought to put it in there as an option.
Personally also figured a weekend or evening option more realistic.

With 1000+ Member around the globe and another 3000+ associates it might probably even be necessary to sometimes hand over organisation ships on the fly, based on Test members that start to game in different Time Zones and therefore keep it running through the night/day.

provided that we didn't lose them in a colossally stupid way
Yo, there is always that.

Conjecture, based on the fact that the swingy-army-things do not appear to be standard cargo containers like what you find on the Hull series.
Alright, if its only a guess. Thought you have this as a fact. To me it looks like the same and I would be surprised if they would have different Loading units. That would be quite counter-productive, considering the SCU approach they recently seem to follow.

In terms of reloading my guess would be following, now that I think of it:
1.) You stop the rotation of the Orion,
2.) the Hull moves with its empty cargo holding mechanism into it and links on to the containers.
3.) The Orion releases it.
4.) You move the Hull a bit further away, rotate it to the next empty side
5.) The Orion rotates its cargo hold once further
6.) repeat step 1 to 5 another three times.
 

NKato

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Can't say how that'd work out, but I'd rather not worry about how things "work" until we see how they actually work.

Planning things with an open-endedness to the blueprint is a good idea, though.
 

Devastat3

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The way i see it the Orion always has empty cargo holds attached to it where the Hull series does not, Which in my opinion and way of thinking would tell me the Orion can:

A. pull up to a mining site and gobble up all the ore it can fill and then leave. Depending on how long it takes to fill up all the cargo containers that could be a long while sitting there with multiple full containers.... OR

B. A Hull series ship could come in empty (i think E is overkill.. if the orion is full why not just fly away?) transfer the Orion's full cargo to it and make the trip back to wherever for refining.

Personally at least I hope that's how it works out. I can take my Hull B or C and pull up to an Orion, fill up, transport, rinse and repeat.

Once the Orion runs out of cargo holds the mining operation is done. Back to base it goes to rent more out. Or I guess the Hull could bring them back empty
 

RipVanDan

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My 2 doubloons worth.
Factors that we may not know until much later and will force a total revision of said plans.
1. How long does an Orion take to get it's fill of chewing on rocks?
2. How dispersed are these rocks? It may take an Orion/Hull X a long time to get into place.
Hull D is close to 1/5th of the null mass and carries not even 1/3 more of the cargo. The Hull has 8 TR10 thrusters the Orion has 4 TR6 it will take a whole lot longer for the Orion to get about than the Hull.
3. Fuel consumption, Do we need a Beerfarer doing additional routes?
4. How much will the economy be effected by a massive influx of TEST ores? Could we also Skew the market by placing the Hull E in orbit and buying out all the ore or refined metal on a planet right before the ore runners show up and dump on a primed market.
5. Even if it is not designed to transport cargo between an Orion and a transport, could one of the crazy individuals within our ranks be able to break the system?

Theory crafting if fun and exciting. I say let the money do the talking. We have a lot of people in TEST. I am sure many different methods will be tested, the best will rise to the top.
 

Bishop

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i think E is overkill.
Agreed, overkill in relation to serving a single Orion. Not though if you have two or three at one site or spread out over several resource sites.
Now that one was bought, efficient use of it (+ security) would probably need to be roughly planed or thought through though within the next year before PU goes live, so the ship doesn't run of dry dock and gets high-jacked at first opportunity.

With that said. There are still many month ahead, but I think with the Hull released (and probably once the reloading is either been confirmed or countermanded) planing could slowly get on its way.

Personally at least I hope that's how it works out. I can take my Hull B or C and pull up to an Orion, fill up, transport, rinse and repeat.
Agreed. That's also what I see the purpose of the Hull Series for. (So the Orion can keep drilling)
 

NKato

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Just so you know, under the current divisional structure that I've proposed, any mining operations would fall under the authority of the Economics Division, not Logistics. This is primarily because mining is an economic activity.

https://testsquadron.com/threads/discussion-divisions-of-test-brainstorm.3793/

You can read more about the overall structure there, as well as the discussion that goes on. Obviously, roles aren't going to be hard-locked to the divisions themselves. :p
 

Devastat3

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yup, I agree.. once I run into an Orion in my Hull while trying to position myself to transfer pods...there will still be money to be made from all the wreckage...
 

RipVanDan

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I call foul.

Nkato is our special cupcake.

He is also our master Theorycrafter and keeper of the lore!
Montoya has spoken. NKato is our Master Theorycrafter. However until he is promoted he is still not Master of organization and TEST divisions. Thus authority statement is invalid in current debate. Offensive parties must consume three fingers of vodka and carry on.
 

WarrenPeace

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The Idris-P would watch over the Orions at a safe distance, not too close to scare off the dumber pirates, but far enough to bait the small fry into attacking.
I kinda get what we're going for, but wouldn't it just be safer to park the Idris right next to them so nobody even bothers? Or are we trying to give the miners heart attacks too? Cause I'm totally down with that.
 

NKato

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I kinda get what we're going for, but wouldn't it just be safer to park the Idris right next to them so nobody even bothers? Or are we trying to give the miners heart attacks too? Cause I'm totally down with that.
More like, making sure our escorts have some content to chew on. :p
 
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