Multiple Divisions of the same kind?

I_MIKE_I

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Well, I've been wondering: does TEST allow for multiple Divisions of the same type?

i.E. multiple Racing Teams, Transporters, Miners and so on.


Well... even if the answer might be obvious (not to me, tough), I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere and IMO would be a very good thing to have.
 

maynard

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whatever people are willing to put effort into, and get buy-in for, will happen

it's probably a bad idea to shoot your fellow TESTes

apart from that, I have a hard time imagining Dear Leader forbidding anything the TOS allows
 
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Montoya

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For the time being, there will be one official division for each profession. Each division has its division head that reports to me. Official divisions will be tasked with duties that assist the org and drive our plans for complete galactic domination.

If we start having 48 different mining divisions, then it becomes a shit show very quickly.

Instead what we do is have pick up groups, or Mikes Miners, or what ever you want to call it.

If you want to go mining with friends, hop into chat, round up some friends and go mining where ever and when ever you want. You do not need to be in any official division, you can do what ever you want. But if you want to join up with the main group, then that option is also there for you.
 

ShakyWater

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For the time being, there will be one official division for each profession. Each division has its division head that reports to me. Official divisions will be tasked with duties that assist the org and drive our plans for complete galactic domination.

If we start having 48 different mining divisions, then it becomes a shit show very quickly.

Instead what we do is have pick up groups, or Mikes Miners, or what ever you want to call it.

If you want to go mining with friends, hop into chat, round up some friends and go mining where ever and when ever you want. You do not need to be in any official division, you can do what ever you want. But if you want to join up with the main group, then that option is also there for you.
uggghhhh, so corporate.
 

Printimus

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Well, I've been wondering: does TEST allow for multiple Divisions of the same type?

i.E. multiple Racing Teams, Transporters, Miners and so on.


Well... even if the answer might be obvious (not to me, tough), I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere and IMO would be a very good thing to have.
For what reason would you find having multiple of the same "official divisions" beneficial?
 
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I_MIKE_I

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For the time being, there will be one official division for each profession. Each division has its division head that reports to me. Official divisions will be tasked with duties that assist the org and drive our plans for complete galactic domination.

If we start having 48 different mining divisions, then it becomes a shit show very quickly.

Instead what we do is have pick up groups, or Mikes Miners, or what ever you want to call it.

If you want to go mining with friends, hop into chat, round up some friends and go mining where ever and when ever you want. You do not need to be in any official division, you can do what ever you want. But if you want to join up with the main group, then that option is also there for you.
Hm.. it's difficult to really comment on the matter without having the Gameplay involved present, since it requires some theorycrafting.

However, there are some very big issues I see in this (and I mention this because I like TEST):

1. If you have a preferred profession, you'd be presented 2 choices:
A) Following what the Division-Head - which is in person-union leader of a Division - or his/her co-leaders want.
B) Being an outcast relying on the same methods as someone not in the Org.

2. Inevitably, it will feel like "you're too late, gtfo", to some more, to some less, to some not at all. But it's a rather strict stance compared to how TEST is otherwise behaving.

3. Each profession has multiple ways to go about it, and while I'd assume every "division" saying they cover all equally it really would sound just like a politician talking to me.

Let me use Rock Raiders as an example here:
It includes Mining, Reclamation/Repair, Transportation, Salvaging "and other industrial activities".
Mind you, that means 50%+ of TEST is "supposed" to be in 1 Division with no alternatives to it.

And from the Codex:"Secondary Goals Help all active Rock Raiders members earn a Genesis Starliner(or similar) for their own use in appreciation for their hard work."

So, there is a clear distiction between those in the Division and the scum just "being picked up", to a degree where you might as well just be an affiliate or really just not in TEST at all regarding your personal progress.


There are some other points, but IMO those would be the main ones.


Finally, if I may be brutally honest here:
Most Members

  1. Rock Raiders

    140 members, 5.3K views.

  2. Yellow Jackets

    136 members, 3.4K views.
No matter how you look at this, it ain't quite looking too well even tough I know all too well how hard it is to get people into Forum activities.
And on a side note, Rock Raiders also has a "security branch" in it's codex, so in theory Yellow Jackets would not even be allowed according to your post, as the Combat-profession (excl. piracy) would more or less be the same as providing security - unless we'd randomly pick fights with ADI or someone else and even then there would be quite some overlap.

Again, I'm not writing this to be a prick or to piss anyone off, I just feel that *from my perspective* we're on a bad way on this matter.
 
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I_MIKE_I

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For what reason would you find having multiple of the same "official divisions" beneficial?
Simply because it gives people more choice to feel "at home". Even the best Division-Head or whatever it's called won't be able to please everyone in it's division, which lies in the very nature of making descisions. Hell, some people would just be scared away by size alone because they need someone to permanently hold their hand or what-not.

Talking about divisions when will there be a division for traders aka space truckers?
I suppose that would to some degree also be covered by Rock Raiders, altough I don't think it really falls into that category... I'd sorta call myself a Trader/Trucker as well (Banu Merchantman).
 

Black Sunder

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Let me use Rock Raiders as an example here:
It includes Mining, Reclamation/Repair, Transportation, Salvaging "and other industrial activities".
Where do I start? Let me ask if you even bothered to read before posting this or if you just skimmed it? Reading appear to be the case and you took things at face value without looking into them further. And second, what you did read, if you did, is outdated by many months.

1. RR is mainly interested in Mining & Salvaging with a side of Repair. The Internal Logistics Support is just that, Internal, to move those goods around and if necessary we would contract things out to the overall TEST Logistics Division. Same with Prospecting.

2. "other industrial activities" - farming? No, we don't want to cover that.Too much manure. R&D? Only for our own fleet enhancements. What else?
Mind you, that means 50%+ of TEST is "supposed" to be in 1 Division with no alternatives to it.
Hardly, most people would be part of YJ then because everyone at some point or another would get into a fight.

And from the Codex:"Secondary Goals Help all active Rock Raiders members earn a Genesis Starliner(or similar) for their own use in appreciation for their hard work."

So, there is a clear distiction between those in the Division and the scum just "being picked up", to a degree where you might as well just be an affiliate or really just not in TEST at all regarding your personal progress.
Well I can say this was taken out of the latest version that is being worked on now. It is unfeasible and we're currently exploring alternatives. One idea is free repairs on most resource ops. We're still discussing ideas.

And on a side note, Rock Raiders also has a "security branch" in it's codex, so in theory Yellow Jackets would not even be allowed according to your post, as the Combat-profession (excl. piracy) would more or less be the same as providing security - unless we'd randomly pick fights with ADI or someone else and even then there would be quite some overlap.
Let me quote myself, and even then this is outdated: "....and will function more like a group of coordinators to contract services from the rest of TEST to protect Division operations". And I stand by that. I can't comment on YJ or Piracy on their organization but they would be people we would primarily contract to depending on who is in the area.

This is the 3rd thread on this very topic you've brought up. Here was the first. And this was the 2nd. And this time you were told the same thing by Montoya. Again. Can we expect a 4th a few months from now after this one has been forgotten?
 
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Montoya

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Hm.. it's difficult to really comment on the matter without having the Gameplay involved present, since it requires some theorycrafting.
This is why we have not created official divisions for every possible occupation in the game!

We can sit here and theorycraft out the ass, it does not mean anything until we are actually the game doing the actual activity.

This is why we are not promoting our divisions at this time.

This is why anything you read on Rock Raiders is mostly theory crafting by Black Sunder and should not be taken as anything beyond that.

If you want, meet me in chat, its easier for me than typing out a novel.
 

I_MIKE_I

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Where do I start? Let me ask if you even bothered to read before posting this or if you just skimmed it? Reading appear to be the case and you took things at face value without looking into them further. And second, what you did read, if you did, is outdated by many months.
First off, there's no need to be hostile. I did not attack you or your Division in any way - I just do not feel like I would fit in it (weither that's founded or not).

Second, all things I mentioned were taken from the Discription you or someone you appointed provided. The "other industrial activities" is in your Group description:
The mission of Rock Raiders is to provide a home and social hub for the members of TEST who wish to partake in Mining, Salvaging, Reclamation(Repair), Prospecting and other industrial activities that Star Citizen offers. We will build a strong industrial backbone that the Squadron can rely on in times of peace and times of war. The overriding priority is, and always will be, to have fun doing what we do and doing what brings us the most fun and profit at the time.



1. RR is mainly interested in Mining & Salvaging with a side of Repair. The Internal Logistics Support is just that, Internal, to move those goods around and if necessary we would contract things out to the overall TEST Logistics Division. Same with Prospecting.
I do get the Mining, since it's sorta what the name is about. Where it gets confusing is Salvaging, Repairing and all the other side-jobs included, which by default would not have a lot in common with mining itself - or at least notably less than transportation which you do not state as a main-activity of RR.

Hardly, most people would be part of YJ then because everyone at some point or another would get into a fight.
I'm reasonably sure there are a lot of non-combat oriented people in SC, since it's also more or less the only Game in that Genre which promises to cater to those Players. But yes, to some degree I could see the same issue arising with YJ due to how broad the "combat" definition is and how much micro managemant it would take to assign the proper force to the different positions.

Well I can say this was taken out of the latest version that is being worked on now. It is unfeasible and we're currently exploring alternatives. One idea is free repairs on most resource ops. We're still discussing ideas.
Frankly, I think each division should work towards gearing up their people, rather than throwing the funds into one big pot and then have Monotoya being plagued by everyone in need of anything.

The issue is just that with each division having a monopole for the profession(s) covered, people would have to join and work with one of those divisions even if they would not have joined the division otherwise... which is asking for drama to some degree.

Let me quote myself, and even then this is outdated: "....and will function more like a group of coordinators to contract services from the rest of TEST to protect Division operations". And I stand by that. I can't comment on YJ or Piracy on their organization but they would be people we would primarily contract to depending on who is in the area.
I have misunderstood this part then... or simply not read it troughly enough. As for the outdated: it's been taken from the same Google document you mentioned as being the latest version which is being worked on.

This is the 3rd thread on this very topic you've brought up. Here was the first. And this was the 2nd. And this time you were told the same thing by Montoya. Again. Can we expect a 4th a few months from now after this one has been forgotten?
I assume you have not bothered to read those threads then.

Thread 1 was proposing a change in command structure very different from what we have and essentially starting from the bottom up.

Thread 2 was proposing a change based on the System we have, but putting someone between Montoya and the Divisions in order to manage multiple Divisions of the same type.

This one is simply asking about weither or not our current System -which is still not cleanly laid out in any shape or form in this forum and instead actively discouraged by a stickied post in the professions Forum - allows for multiple Divisions covering the same professions and to some degree why I'd find it necessary.

I think it goes without saying that we do not "need" multiple divisions for the same professions for Gameplay atm.

HOWEVER: My Point is, that having multiple Divisions even for the same Profession allows us to not only cater for People that join Test because it's the best of the big Orgs, but also because it can offer the same as they'd find in smaller orgs within the biggest org and all the benefits that come with it.

For example, we could one die-hard Combat-Pilot squadron which only let's in the most elite Pilots, using proper military-grade behavior (wording, etc.), they could go as far as making appearances to regular trainings a must and what not. Surely they'd get like 100 Players max, but they'd be a valuable addition to TEST and TEST would be able to offer them much more action and support than they could ever hope to get on their own.

There are lots of ways a profession could be played and a lot of ways to lead... I simply don't see why we should limit ourselfes that much without any need.

This is why we have not created official divisions for every possible occupation in the game!

We can sit here and theorycraft out the ass, it does not mean anything until we are actually the game doing the actual activity.

This is why we are not promoting our divisions at this time.

This is why anything you read on Rock Raiders is mostly theory crafting by Black Sunder and should not be taken as anything beyond that.

If you want, meet me in chat, its easier for me than typing out a novel.
The thing is, that it's really hard to see the structure we have / will have.

While I'm certain the "core members" around since TEST was small will know exactly what's going on, new Members or people looking for an org have a very different point of view... same might go for all those not following the development of SC/Test actively and simply take note of the bigger updates/events/sales.

I'm not a big fan of theorycrafting myself, but I think to some degree we really need to refine the structures. Not to make things overly complicated or anything, but since we started with Divisions we might as well try to flesh out the whole thing to make it more presentable.

I'll try to get talk with you in chat soon, but I bought a Mic thinking my Headset was broken, but it seems to be an issue with my PC... so I'll have to fix my Laptop first and try with that.
 
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Black Sunder

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First off, there's no need to be hostile. I did not attack you or your Division in any way - I just do not feel like I would fit in it (weither that's founded or not).
That's how I read it and I'm sorry.

Second, all things I mentioned were taken from the Discription you or someone you appointed provided. The "other industrial activities" is in your Group description:

I do get the Mining, since it's sorta what the name is about. Where it gets confusing is Salvaging, Repairing and all the other side-jobs included, which by default would not have a lot in common with mining itself - or at least notably less than transportation which you do not state as a main-activity of RR.
Whatever happens in the future will happen as the game evolves, but RR main focus is and always has been Mining. We'll stick to that alone for now.
I'm reasonably sure there are a lot of non-combat oriented people in SC, since it's also more or less the only Game in that Genre which promises to cater to those Players. But yes, to some degree I could see the same issue arising with YJ due to how broad the "combat" definition is and how much micro managemant it would take to assign the proper force to the different positions.
Frankly, I think each division should work towards gearing up their people, rather than throwing the funds into one big pot and then have Monotoya being plagued by everyone in need of anything.
All i can say is that RR has ideas to support miners that don't wish to be part of it in an official capacity but still have some level of support form it.
The issue is just that with each division having a monopole for the profession(s) covered, people would have to join and work with one of those divisions even if they would not have joined the division otherwise... which is asking for drama to some degree.
I would say its organizing TEST to be the most efficient.
I have misunderstood this part then... or simply not read it troughly enough. As for the outdated: it's been taken from the same Google document you mentioned as being the latest version which is being worked on.
Everyone misunderstood it. Its been unlinked now to stop more of the same and we'll continue work internally. I shouldn't have left it up for so long being as outdated as it is.

I assume you have not bothered to read those threads then.

Thread 1 was proposing a change in command structure very different from what we have and essentially starting from the bottom up.

Thread 2 was proposing a change based on the System we have, but putting someone between Montoya and the Divisions in order to manage multiple Divisions of the same type.

This one is simply asking about weither or not our current System -which is still not cleanly laid out in any shape or form in this forum and instead actively discouraged by a stickied post in the professions Forum - allows for multiple Divisions covering the same professions and to some degree why I'd find it necessary.
I did read both but it seemed to me you were talking about the same thing twice over.

I think it goes without saying that we do not "need" multiple divisions for the same professions for Gameplay atm.

HOWEVER: My Point is, that having multiple Divisions even for the same Profession allows us to not only cater for People that join Test because it's the best of the big Orgs, but also because it can offer the same as they'd find in smaller orgs within the biggest org and all the benefits that come with it.

For example, we could one die-hard Combat-Pilot squadron which only let's in the most elite Pilots, using proper military-grade behavior (wording, etc.), they could go as far as making appearances to regular trainings a must and what not. Surely they'd get like 100 Players max, but they'd be a valuable addition to TEST and TEST would be able to offer them much more action and support than they could ever hope to get on their own.

There are lots of ways a profession could be played and a lot of ways to lead... I simply don't see why we should limit ourselfes that much without any need.
I think we can accomplish both easily enough. We have the right org attitude to do it. Others will try and copy but fail.
 
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Printimus

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Simply because it gives people more choice to feel "at home". Even the best Division-Head or whatever it's called won't be able to please everyone in it's division, which lies in the very nature of making descisions. Hell, some people would just be scared away by size alone because they need someone to permanently hold their hand or what-not.


I suppose that would to some degree also be covered by Rock Raiders, altough I don't think it really falls into that category... I'd sorta call myself a Trader/Trucker as well (Banu Merchantman).
More choice? You already have all the choices one could ask for. Nothing is stopping you from forming a group with any of the testies that are on discord or that you have already made friends with. Nobody is EVER going to be able to please everyone 100% all the time (except for Montoya), thats how life works, get over it. Lots of people are not "scared away" because we try to do meet ups once in a while. This is a org mostly for adults, and we act as such. If you need someone to hold your hand in joining a division, PM me and I'll gladly walk you through the process.

FOR THE GREAT TESTIE EMPIRE! TO CORPORATE EFFICIENCY AND BEYOND!

(drops mic)
 
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chendal220

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We can sit here and theorycraft out the ass, it does not mean anything until we are actually the game doing the actual activity.
i think this says everything ;)

i´ve been playing MMORPG´s since 25 years and only can say...all "structured" plans are unnecessary.
Yes of course... i "think" that maybe e.g. good mining ressources will be owned by great Organisation which defend them and nobody else Can do mining their if he does not kill every defending ship. So as stronger and more people the own organisation is/has as better it is. (i hope my english is correct)

Or some jumppoints may be guarded by pirates or some organisations and you cannot pass through "tollfree". You have to pay a fee or something else....that´s roleplay., In the middle Age games bridges are guarded sometimes and here we do not have bridges we have jumppoints with same Effekt.

What i want to say: In each game i have played and thats a lot...the People used every gap of game mechanic which was possible to use. and then you Can think about: do i want to fight my way / ressource/ etc.. free ? Do i have enough friendly fighters on my side ? Or do i withdraw and avoid a fight for a jumpgate or a mining ressource or whatelse.

When the game is started we will see early enough what we must do and what not :slight_smile:

I think what we Can already do is to summ up some ideas, e.g.:

We have big ships in Organization which has to be defended...javelin, idris..whatever in space.
Suggestion: We Can "park" this big ships near a wealthy Asteroid belt in which we do mining. Then we can defend both at the same time with the same ressources. This saves manpower we need to defend. Thats the idea....nothing more

But where this can be in space...in which system...we do not know currently.
 
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maynard

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Why are we still belaboring this? Dear Leader has spoken. There will be official divisions tasked with furthering the cause of Universal Domination, and everyone else can do whatever the fuck they want. Just don't claim to be official without Dear Leader's sanction and you will be fine.
 
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Printimus

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Why are we still belaboring this? Dear Leader has spoken. There will be official divisions tasked with furthering the cause of Universal Domination, and everyone else can do whatever the fuck they want. Just don't claim to be official without Dear Leader's sanction and you will be fine.
you cant tell me what to do! You arent my real dad!
 
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