No Cutlass, No Pirates?

O

Omusul

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No ship is a pirate ship, yet all ships can be pirate ships, it all depends on their owners/orgs.
Long live the Cutlass..... and make the Buccaneer as well.
I have a Draking problem :P
 

AntiSqueaker

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Apr 23, 2014
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This is a long post. I have a tl;dr at the bottom, but be warned.





I feel like I can maybe shed a bit of light onto this problem, being that I am one of people that post routinely in that "Cutlass complaint thread". Cutlass was my first, and favorite ship. I'm not as bad as some of the people in that thread, but I may be worse than others.

You have to understand the marketing behind the Cutlass when it was originally sold, the Kickstarter. CIG was playing fast and loose with ship specs and the entire thing was CIG raking in money and flying by the seat of their pants. The amount of reception and money was staggering, and the overall passion for the project was astounding.

Halfway through the KS campaign, the Cutlass fighter is dropped in, part of the "Digital Pirate" package. Same price (Ben was mistaken in the Cutlass Update/QA. Currently the Cutlass is 10$ less, but originally all 3 digital packs were $100 even. Cutlass had no physical package like the Freelancer or Hornet did) as the Digital Freelancer and Digital Colonel (Hornet) packages, but with a bit less UEC (but contained a tractor beam and docking collar for raiding right off the bat).

Let's take a look at the original KS description of the Cutlass:
Drake Interplanetary claims that the Cutlass is a low-cost, easy-to-maintain solution for local in-system militia units. The larger-than-average cargo hold, RIO seat and dedicated tractor mount are, the company literature insists, for facilitating search and rescue operations. While it’s true that Cutlasses are used throughout known space for such missions, their prime task and immediate association is with high space piracy. Cutlasses, often operating in groups, menace distant transit lanes to prey on hapless merchants. A single Cutlass can ravage a mid-sized transport and a pack operating as a clan can easily take down larger prey. STOL adaptations allow these interceptors to operate off of modified transports or pocket destroyers; the most common warships that make up pirate caravans.
So right there is the base of the Cutlass. "Cheap" (I prefer the term "cost effective" personally) Militia Fighter with a cargo hold. Cool, check, check, and check. Thread over, right?


Wellllllll not quite. A lot of people, myself included, assumed the Cutlass was a fighter first, and a cargo platform second. Or third. This seemed to be backed up by numerous developer comments that seemed cut and dry. I'm sure someone has quoted the Chris Roberts "Cutlass is meant to be a dogfighter with unparalleled maneuverability, not so much focused on cargo" quote at you if you've even mildly read the big 1,000 page thread about it.

This, alongside other quotes in a similar vein from CIG people, made people assume the Cutlass would handle overall slightly to majorly better than other ships in her weight class, which at the time was (and still is) the Hornet and Freelancer.
The initial KS stats, outdated and janky as they were, supported this interpretation as well: Freelancer and Hornet had 8xTR2 maneuvering thrusters, whereas the Cutlass had 16. Some other comments from CIG emphasized the Cutlasses overall lower quality components, example being Ben describing the Cutlass as a "Glass cannon, or Rogue" in the first big livestream. The overall and popular interpretation was the Cutlass was nimble and had a modest cargo hold (large for a fighter, small compared to Freelancer or Connie. Initially Cutlass and Avenger had identical cargo capacity). But was balanced by lower armor and overall durability, and less weapons than it's main "competitor" the Hornet, being they were the only combat ships at the time.

And that's what a lot of people were hoping, and expecting for for, for the longest time. The commercial REALLY emphasized what everyone assumed was what the Cutlass could do: dance around opponents and rely on mitigation via dodging and weaving vs straight up brawls like a Hornet.

And then it gets put into Arena Commander. And oh boy what a shit show that was. Turret was broken, half the thrusters simply didn't operate, the top speed was an appalling and shocking 160 m/s. It was obviously quite rushed, the guy at CIG who's job it is to you know make engines work in IFCS said he literally did not touch the Cutlass before it was thrown into Arena Commander alongside the Gladius.

A bunch of people, including plenty of non-Cutlass owners, were really confused why the Cutlass frankly handled like shit. It slid around all over the place, it had wonky bugs where thrusters would misfire and you'd drift in a different direction, it hogged up all the memory when it spawned or died. To put it bluntly it looked and felt really, really rushed.

So the Cutlass got a token buff up to 180 m/s, where it sits today, and some very minor changes to the IFCS thrusters to make it more stable. However, many people were confused and angered at why the Cutlass had such a low top speed and slow acceleration for having twin Hornet/300i sized thrusters.

And CIG basically said it was working as intended, so THEN a bunch of people got really mad over a perceived "bait and switch" between the still "official" lore and descriptions all backers were told to pledge on, and the very lackluster handling in game.

And now a good chunk of the QOCQER thread (aka the Cutlass Complaint Thread Dramabomb) feel the Cutlass is lacking in several departments, gives up too much combat viability to the "hybrid tax", is overscaled and bloated, and several other issues. Basically turning the "Fighter with a cargo hold" into a "Freighter than can fight". The fact that this new QA/Update is the first official word on the Cutlass in over a year did not help the issue at all, and just inflamed passions about being constantly "ignored", which got people angry, which made CIG never post any Cutlass updates, which got people more angry, etc etc etc.

I personally am worried about the "not supposed to stand up 1:1 with a Freelancer", because that is probably the most common cargo hauler in the game at the moment. If I, as a pirate player, need to bring 2 Cutlasses to raid 1 Freelancer, what's the point of a Cutlass? Obviously a Freelancer is more than capable of holding it's own, and can carry more cargo to boot. I see posts in this very thread saying the only use a Cutlass has is a light loot transport, which is part of the problem indeed.


I'm not trying to get on a soapbox or preach to anyone, or start a debate, just offering some background and a view from the other side of the table. I'm probably going to scrap my Cutlass because it's not what I envsioned, and everything indicates that a group of Gladius/Sabres/Hornets escorting a Caterpillar or Freelancer will do everything better anyway.

I'm looking forward to the Buccaneer if CIG decides to go for it, seems like it's what I wanted in the first place.




TL;DR A bunch of people in "that Cutlass thread" feel the Cutlass role has shifted from originally being primarily a fighter with a smaller cargo hold, to now being a multi-crew boarding and loot hauling fighting freighter. And is now being very overshone by other ships both in the fighting and loot carrying departments, and as such will be used for neither. Others disagree, and now it's a hyperbole fest of the "whiny crybaby Cutlass owners not getting a OP murderboat QQ" vs "CIG lied and did a total bait and switch and Ben Lesnick is the devil incarnate".

I just want my Cutlass to be fun to fly and effective at it's job, something I feel that it needs to be a competent and viable combat threat to perform. Being half fighter and half freighter means you suck at doing both.
 
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Rainshine

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Nov 13, 2014
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Long post as response, TL;DR at the end.

TL;DR A bunch of people in "that Cutlass thread" feel the Cutlass role has shifted from originally being primarily a fighter with a smaller cargo hold, to now being a multi-crew boarding and loot hauling fighting freighter. And is now being very overshone by other ships both in the fighting and loot carrying departments, and as such will be used for neither. Others disagree, and now it's a hyperbole fest of the "whiny crybaby Cutlass owners not getting a OP murderboat QQ" vs "CIG lied and did a total bait and switch and Ben Lesnick is the devil incarnate".

I just want my Cutlass to be fun to fly and effective at it's job, something I feel that it needs to be a competent and viable combat threat to perform. Being half fighter and half freighter means you suck at doing both.
I'm confused, we have nothing in "it's weight class" to compare it's handling to. I mean, it's got higher mass than a Freelancer by a decent margin. How can we possibly judge how "well it handles" when the only thing we have to compare it to are dogfighters?

Secondly, everyone in that thread knows, or at least should know, that balance was/is not important to CIG. So what if the Cutlass goes 50m/s slower than it "should" or that not all of it's thrusters work yet. The point is, according to it's initial description, the one everyone saw before purchasing, I have a hard time thinking that it's not going to fill that exact roll. If people want to assume something about a fluff blurb, that's their own issue, but you can't honestly tell me that someone someone read a fluff blurb, got excited and purchased it, then gets all pissed off when a baseless assertion is made that its not "fulfilling its roll!", ESPECIALLY when the fluff blurb specifically says taking down transport. Which don't really fight back and are slow.

The overall and popular interpretation was the Cutlass was nimble and had a modest cargo hold (large for a fighter, small compared to Freelancer or Connie. Initially Cutlass and Avenger had identical cargo capacity).
This is just plain wrong. If the Cutlass was stated to have a larger than average capacity on its original blurb as opposed to the stats that came later, then it would have more cargo space than a Freelancer, as it is more massive. As in larger mass. What popular "interpretation" was is irrelevant.

And final point;
Freelancer and Hornet had 8xTR2 maneuvering thrusters, whereas the Cutlass had 16.
It retains that same maneuvering power with different kinds. Instead of 16 TR2s, it now has 4 TR3 and 8 TR1. Since we don't really have a metric for TR size relation, I can only make the presumption that this was done to keep the relative thrust power with having fewer thruster mounts due to the model.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to attack you personally here, I just don't understand where the confusion is. We're told "It can take down a mid size transport solo." it says nothing about dogfighting. That was an assumption players made when imagining the ship. And besides, they'll need all those thrusters to move its heavy weight when it's loaded with cargo, let alone its null weight.





TL;DR:
CIG did not break any promises, fans of the Cutlass misinterpreted and extrapolated the fluff blurb to be something different than was intended. Fans manufactured "what they thought" was intended, rather than what was. And I don't blame them for that, I've done the same and been disappointed.

But what's unacceptable is the sheer amount of outcry to CIG about their perceived "greivance" because the ship isn't actually what they though it was. The normal response aught to be "Huh...that sucks, I guess I thought wrong.", then either melt it and get a ship that fits their ideal, or simply keep it and wait to see what it actually ends up being.
 

thanatos73

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Nov 21, 2014
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Here's a thought. JCrewe said, in the Cutlass post, that a Cutlass couldn't go toe to toe with a Freelancer. Then updated his opinion to say that with two, equally skilled pilots, the Freelancer would most likely come out on top. Now consider, I am a pirate, I fly combat missions more times than not. You are a cargo pilot, ya, you're in a Freelancer, but you mostly fly cargo runs, now who's going to come out on top?
 

Reptar Khan

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TL;DR This is a good thing for a well rounded game.

I think that CIG putting the cutlass outside of the 'fighter' group helps flesh out the 1-3 person mid-sized ship tier
[I will classify as Medium]

-There is already a large number of single seat fighter-sized ships. These are 'easy' to make and have large role variation options.
[Classify as Small]

-There is a number of corvette-sized role specific ships, with narrow role variation. These assist expounding various game mechanics.
[Classify as XL]

-Then there is a number of ships that are neither XL-Corvette sized Nor 'Medium' sized, with Some amount of proposed role variation & expanded multi crew options: Tali & Connie (possibly Deemer). This category will need fleshing out with new ships.
[Classify as Large]

The bridge between is the Mid-sized ship range. Moving from single seat fighters, in exchange for some trade offs, to larger ships with more specific game play options & crew options. This is where I see the Lancer, Cutlass, Vanguard, (Deemer/Prowler?) falling. The fact the Cutlass is in this range of ships at its price is amazing & clearly demonstrates why it will be a 'Honda Value' ship with a lot of bang-for-the-buck.

If people only fly fighters and then think larger ships should handle the same, just wait for the flying brick of a Freelancer/Connie to come out.
This is what we get for simulating any kind of realism for mass and thrusters in space.
A well thought out space game full of trade offs and variation.
/rant:)
 

NapalmX

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May 16, 2014
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As it looks right now, a combat pilot in an empty Cutlass won't have too much trouble against a cargo pilot in a laden Freelancer. That would make sense. There's your advantage.
 

thanatos73

Space Marshal
Nov 21, 2014
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thanatos1973
Exactly my point. If your taking out your Cutlass, to go pirating solo, fine. If you're in your Freelancer, to go bountying, cool. If you run into each other, sell tickets, and profit. Just let me know, I'll arrange for beer.
 
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