Predicting the future of ship to ship combat

FZD

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Alright, so the other thread about trading got me thinking about ship to ship combat and how it's quite fastpaced right now. Any ship piloted by an NPC goes down in milliseconds right now, smaller ships can take like one salvo, and even the only capital ship currently in the game, with absolutely fantastical amount of shields, could be disabled in around half a minute by just one gunship (I believe constellation Aquila would suffice, the pilot guns could be used without gimbals since the target is so large) or in mere 9 seconds by one dedicated heavy gunship (I'm fairly sure Hammerhead will have no trouble getting 5 out of 6 turrets on target). After disabling the ship, hammerhead could then just shoot it full of holes with a missile barrage. And that's without even considering ships specifically designed to hunt capital ships, the kinda that come equipped with large torpedoes.

That doesn't leave much room for escort gameplay: You either have enough escorts to destroy every ship entering the range within few seconds, or you don't. It really helps if the ship that's being protected is moving at max speed already, in which case you probably wouldn't need escorts most of the time anyhow, as it doesn't take that long to spool the quantum drive and escape and the ships the size that would hold enough firepower won't be catching up with you anytime soon.

Anyhow, the way I see it, we'll end up having with TTK increased all across the board for all ships. Smaller ships are probably closest to their actual values, but anything that is going to have gameplay with internal components and escape pods is likely going to get lot sturdier. Not necessarily more 'difficult' to kill, just takes longer to do so.

The question is how long will it be, to destroy a ship?

Now, if you come under attack, one thing is you could open up your mobiglass, go to contracts, beacons, and then request combat assistance. This doesn't really work when your ship will be blown up halfway through deploying the beacon, let alone anyone having time to answer it. The closest small and medium sized fighters would still take several minutes to merely travel to the location, and those kind of ships would be who are primarily answering to combat beacons.

This, to me, would seem like especially large and capital ships would take at least a few minutes in most cases, with attacker using a small fleet of ships dedicated for piracy. Capitals should, in my opinion, take like 10 minutes to hammer down with a fleet dedicated at taking down capital ships and their escorts. I mean, it should at least take longer than traveling through a couple of systems, can't be 90% quantum travel and 1% of dying in combat with 9% waiting for expedited respawns. Besides, with med-beds and whatnot, I'd see large battles with couple capital ships and various smaller ones taking over an hour with a half broken capital ship having time to limp behind an asteroid to do some quick repairs while the other one holds out.

Now, if your ship has escape pods, it wouldn't make much sense if you never had any time to run to them. And you wouldn't run to the escape pod if the battle was just starting, you'd probably wait until at least the shields were gone, and maybe the hull was at 25% or 50%. So the last 25% to 50% of hull would need to take like 10-20 seconds to destroy in an average assault, depending on the ships layout. So any ship with escape pods should take like a minute total against reasonable enemy. I mean, if it's something absurd, like freelancer getting hit by a size 9 torpedo, then yeah, it's gone in an instant. But maybe a cutlass and couple of buccaneers would take a bit over a minute to drop that freelancer.

So all in all, when we get features like medical gameplay, escape pods, fixing ships internal components, etc. we should start seeing TTK go up for ships.
 
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Blind Owl

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Completely concur. For immersion purposes, we need to be able to have these massive battles where cap ships can take a beating for quite some time. Think Star Wars, Battlestar Galactica, etc etc etc. We want to be able to engage in battles where small ships are flipping and flying between the cap ships. That is t possible is ships disintegrate under the first barrage.

Even ships from the size of the beerfarer on up need to have a capacity to fight for a while and then provide enough time for crew members to escape. Or at least put up a fight.

I have no idea what the TTK is like at the moment, but the last time I played it took upwards of 10 minutes to kill a pirate gladius, so I'm guessing from your descriptions, they've balanced that somewhat. Maybe too far.
 
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NaffNaffBobFace

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I think with Death Of A Spaceman the intention in the PU is to eventually have TTD (Time To Disable) and TTK.

A ship may be damaged and disabled fairly swiftly in the right cercumstances but to outright destroy it could take minutes of constant fire to give players a fair chance of escaping with their lives.

The only benefit to totally destroying a ship when LTI exists would be to limit ORG capacity while reclaims are happening. Damage a ship badly and it'll cost 'em to fix but destroy it and it's free.
 

maynard

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a small ship shouldn't be able to disable or kill a large ship by itself

small, maneuverable ships should be able to evade slow-tracking large ship guns and large missiles

EMP should only work within range of a ship's guns, with strength proportional to ship size - a Hornet shouldn't be able to stop a Kraken in its tracks

balance is hard

the Devs will never please all of the players all of the time
 

Zookajoe

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I have a feeling once armor is fully implemented in game, and the shield holes are fixed, that many ships will be much, much tougher.
As it is, ballistics are the way to go for fast kills, they partially bypass the shields and directly impact the hull.
I believe how it is intended is for shields to provide added protection from energy weapons, while the armor is to provide added protection from ballistic weapons.

Once armor is in game, these stupid fast kill times will go away.
 

Cugino83

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I think with Death Of A Spaceman the intention in the PU is to eventually have TTD (Time To Disable) and TTK.

A ship may be damaged and disabled fairly swiftly in the right cercumstances but to outright destroy it could take minutes of constant fire to give players a fair chance of escaping with their lives.

The only benefit to totally destroying a ship when LTI exists would be to limit ORG capacity while reclaims are happening. Damage a ship badly and it'll cost 'em to fix but destroy it and it's free.
That is exactly the point...
It has being sad tha the actual state of combat is not the intended one, by far.
Other then the shild rework, the armour implementetion and the costant balancing work, the already stated that, once the component system will be flashed out, it will be far more common to disable an wrackage a medium size ship rather that have it exploded so for lager ship there will be all the time to get an launch the escape pods or to whait for support to arrive.

For smaller ship that could be another story but onestly once you hit the generator all the ship will be power down so there will be no reason to keep firing at it.

Rest asure, the TTK time will be addressed, there are too many mechanics that works aorund the ability to disable a ship and incapacite it for this not to be done: rapairing, towing, boarding action, salvaging etc...
 
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Richard Bong

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Alright, so the other thread about trading got me thinking about ship to ship combat and how it's quite fastpaced right now. Any ship piloted by an NPC goes down in milliseconds right now, smaller ships can take like one salvo, and even the only capital ship currently in the game, with absolutely fantastical amount of shields, could be disabled in around half a minute by just one gunship (I believe constellation Aquila would suffice, the pilot guns could be used without gimbals since the target is so large) or in mere 9 seconds by one dedicated heavy gunship (I'm fairly sure Hammerhead will have no trouble getting 5 out of 6 turrets on target). After disabling the ship, hammerhead could then just shoot it full of holes with a missile barrage. And that's without even considering ships specifically designed to hunt capital ships, the kinda that come equipped with large torpedoes.

That doesn't leave much room for escort gameplay: You either have enough escorts to destroy every ship entering the range within few seconds, or you don't. It really helps if the ship that's being protected is moving at max speed already, in which case you probably wouldn't need escorts most of the time anyhow, as it doesn't take that long to spool the quantum drive and escape and the ships the size that would hold enough firepower won't be catching up with you anytime soon.

Anyhow, the way I see it, we'll end up having with TTK increased all across the board for all ships. Smaller ships are probably closest to their actual values, but anything that is going to have gameplay with internal components and escape pods is likely going to get lot sturdier. Not necessarily more 'difficult' to kill, just takes longer to do so.

The question is how long will it be, to destroy a ship?

Now, if you come under attack, one thing is you could open up your mobiglass, go to contracts, beacons, and then request combat assistance. This doesn't really work when your ship will be blown up halfway through deploying the beacon, let alone anyone having time to answer it. The closest small and medium sized fighters would still take several minutes to merely travel to the location, and those kind of ships would be who are primarily answering to combat beacons.

This, to me, would seem like especially large and capital ships would take at least a few minutes in most cases, with attacker using a small fleet of ships dedicated for piracy. Capitals should, in my opinion, take like 10 minutes to hammer down with a fleet dedicated at taking down capital ships and their escorts. I mean, it should at least take longer than traveling through a couple of systems, can't be 90% quantum travel and 1% of dying in combat with 9% waiting for expedited respawns. Besides, with med-beds and whatnot, I'd see large battles with couple capital ships and various smaller ones taking over an hour with a half broken capital ship having time to limp behind an asteroid to do some quick repairs while the other one holds out.

Now, if your ship has escape pods, it wouldn't make much sense if you never had any time to run to them. And you wouldn't run to the escape pod if the battle was just starting, you'd probably wait until at least the shields were gone, and maybe the hull was at 25% or 50%. So the last 25% to 50% of hull would need to take like 10-20 seconds to destroy in an average assault, depending on the ships layout. So any ship with escape pods should take like a minute total against reasonable enemy. I mean, if it's something absurd, like freelancer getting hit by a size 9 torpedo, then yeah, it's gone in an instant. But maybe a cutlass and couple of buccaneers would take a bit over a minute to drop that freelancer.

So all in all, when we get features like medical gameplay, escape pods, fixing ships internal components, etc. we should start seeing TTK go up for ships.
Chris Roberts wants Star Wars style dogfighting.
To that end physics will be ignored.
 

FZD

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Chris Roberts wants Star Wars style dogfighting.
To that end physics will be ignored.
Sorry, I'm confused, what does any of this have to do with physics?

And in Star Wars, it does typically take the combined effort of several fighter and bomber squadrons backed up by a carrier or two to bring down a capital ship, or the occasional infiltration team with several bags of explosives to plant around the ship. The movies would be lot shorter if capitals just blew up after one gunship shot at them for few seconds.
Star Wars also has freighters that are practically immortal, like Millennium Falcon. And the regular ones resembling Hull-series also take long enough that fighters would typically escort bombers rather than trying to destroy the freighter themselves.
 

Richard Bong

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Alright, so the other thread about trading got me thinking about ship to ship combat and how it's quite fastpaced right now. Any ship piloted by an NPC goes down in milliseconds right now, smaller ships can take like one salvo, and even the only capital ship currently in the game, with absolutely fantastical amount of shields, could be disabled in around half a minute by just one gunship (I believe constellation Aquila would suffice, the pilot guns could be used without gimbals since the target is so large) or in mere 9 seconds by one dedicated heavy gunship (I'm fairly sure Hammerhead will have no trouble getting 5 out of 6 turrets on target). After disabling the ship, hammerhead could then just shoot it full of holes with a missile barrage. And that's without even considering ships specifically designed to hunt capital ships, the kinda that come equipped with large torpedoes.

That doesn't leave much room for escort gameplay: You either have enough escorts to destroy every ship entering the range within few seconds, or you don't. It really helps if the ship that's being protected is moving at max speed already, in which case you probably wouldn't need escorts most of the time anyhow, as it doesn't take that long to spool the quantum drive and escape and the ships the size that would hold enough firepower won't be catching up with you anytime soon.

Anyhow, the way I see it, we'll end up having with TTK increased all across the board for all ships. Smaller ships are probably closest to their actual values, but anything that is going to have gameplay with internal components and escape pods is likely going to get lot sturdier. Not necessarily more 'difficult' to kill, just takes longer to do so.

The question is how long will it be, to destroy a ship?

Now, if you come under attack, one thing is you could open up your mobiglass, go to contracts, beacons, and then request combat assistance. This doesn't really work when your ship will be blown up halfway through deploying the beacon, let alone anyone having time to answer it. The closest small and medium sized fighters would still take several minutes to merely travel to the location, and those kind of ships would be who are primarily answering to combat beacons.

This, to me, would seem like especially large and capital ships would take at least a few minutes in most cases, with attacker using a small fleet of ships dedicated for piracy. Capitals should, in my opinion, take like 10 minutes to hammer down with a fleet dedicated at taking down capital ships and their escorts. I mean, it should at least take longer than traveling through a couple of systems, can't be 90% quantum travel and 1% of dying in combat with 9% waiting for expedited respawns. Besides, with med-beds and whatnot, I'd see large battles with couple capital ships and various smaller ones taking over an hour with a half broken capital ship having time to limp behind an asteroid to do some quick repairs while the other one holds out.

Now, if your ship has escape pods, it wouldn't make much sense if you never had any time to run to them. And you wouldn't run to the escape pod if the battle was just starting, you'd probably wait until at least the shields were gone, and maybe the hull was at 25% or 50%. So the last 25% to 50% of hull would need to take like 10-20 seconds to destroy in an average assault, depending on the ships layout. So any ship with escape pods should take like a minute total against reasonable enemy. I mean, if it's something absurd, like freelancer getting hit by a size 9 torpedo, then yeah, it's gone in an instant. But maybe a cutlass and couple of buccaneers would take a bit over a minute to drop that freelancer.

So all in all, when we get features like medical gameplay, escape pods, fixing ships internal components, etc. we should start seeing TTK go up for ships.
Sorry, I'm confused, what does any of this have to do with physics?
sorry, partial post I thought I deleted. :)

And in Star Wars, it does typically take the combined effort of several fighter and bomber squadrons backed up by a carrier or two to bring down a capital ship, or the occasional infiltration team with several bags of explosives to plant around the ship. The movies would be lot shorter if capitals just blew up after one gunship shot at them for few seconds.
Star Wars also has freighters that are practically immortal, like Millennium Falcon. And the regular ones resembling Hull-series also take long enough that fighters would typically escort bombers rather than trying to destroy the freighter themselves.
The Falcon was difficult to hit, not necessarily difficult to kill, once hit.

Two torps from a fighter, killed the Death Star. One fighter and lightly armed freighter killed the second, bigger, death star. Star Wars is, if anything, about the "golden bb."

It is all about the cinematic effect. Does it feel right, for the moment, not, is it consistent or predictable or realistic.
 

FZD

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The Falcon was difficult to hit, not necessarily difficult to kill, once hit.
I seem to remember it taking quite a few hits, then having Luke or R2D2 fix the internal components while the ship remained more or less fully functional.

Two torps from a fighter, killed the Death Star.
Took several squadrons do several runs against it, and some space wizard magic on top of it.

One fighter and lightly armed freighter killed the second, bigger, death star.
They had an infiltration team taking down the shields, and even with full fleet against the Death Star II the rebels lost several cruisers in that attack. Two Squadrons then glitched their way inside the Death Star and destroyed the reactor core... I mean, if you can get your Merlin inside my Starfarer and start shooting at internal components, I wouldn't expect it to last long.
 

Richard Bong

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I seem to remember it taking quite a few hits, then having Luke or R2D2 fix the internal components while the ship remained more or less fully functional.


Took several squadrons do several runs against it, and some space wizard magic on top of it.



They had an infiltration team taking down the shields, and even with full fleet against the Death Star II the rebels lost several cruisers in that attack. Two Squadrons then glitched their way inside the Death Star and destroyed the reactor core... I mean, if you can get your Merlin inside my Starfarer and start shooting at internal components, I wouldn't expect it to last long.
The Falcon was mission killed in all of the movies, usually with very little damage, some with no damage at all.

Neither Death Star took anything but superficial damage until it exploded.

The team on the ground took down a shield that, while protecting the Death Star, was not the Death Star's shield.

The vast majority of ships lost in both Death Star battles were lost to escorts, in very short exchanges of fire. Usually one volley for fighters, usually from another fighter.
 
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Richard Bong

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The Falcon was mission killed in all of the movies, usually with very little damage, some with no damage at all.

Neither Death Star took anything but superficial damage until it exploded.

The team on the ground took down a shield that, while protecting the Death Star, was not the Death Star's shield.

The vast majority of ships lost in both Death Star battles were lost to escorts, in very short exchanges of fire. Usually one volley for fighters, usually from another fighter.
You know, the more I think about it, from most Sci-Fi epic battles, Star Citizen time to kill is way to high.
Granted flying in one of those movies and getting taken out that quickly with permadeath is a bit brutal, but seems incredibly realistic.
 
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FZD

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The Falcon was mission killed in all of the movies, usually with very little damage, some with no damage at all.
I can't remember Falcon being ever mission killed. They had to repair it en route, sometimes even stop to do so, sure, but they always carried out the mission in said craft.

Neither Death Star took anything but superficial damage until it exploded.
Both times the destruction was a result of a whole fleet working to take it down. No single fighter could've done it alone. Not even a squadron of fighters. A great deal of preparation was also necessary before the missions could even be contemplated. It took hundreds of people working several days to destroy the death stars.

The team on the ground took down a shield that, while protecting the Death Star, was not the Death Star's shield.
Well it was certainly not Random Space Shield #321 stopping Rebels from attacking the Death Star by pure happenstance. Now, whether it was projected from the planet or the Death Star itself, doesn't change the fact that taking it down was an essential part of destroying the Death Star.

The vast majority of ships lost in both Death Star battles were lost to escorts, in very short exchanges of fire. Usually one volley for fighters, usually from another fighter.
Any larger ships were mostly lost to other larger ships or bombers escorted by fighters.
As for how fast fighters destroy other fighters varies greatly, with some getting dropped right off the bat and others might dogfight for the entire duration of a larger battle and still fly home.

In any case, smaller battles, like a single cruiser versus several smaller craft, would last several minutes. While something larger involving capital ships could easily stretch into hour or more.
 
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Bambooza

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Alright, so the other thread about trading got me thinking about ship to ship combat and how it's quite fastpaced right now. Any ship piloted by an NPC goes down in milliseconds right now, smaller ships can take like one salvo, and even the only capital ship currently in the game, with absolutely fantastical amount of shields, could be disabled in around half a minute by just one gunship (I believe constellation Aquila would suffice, the pilot guns could be used without gimbals since the target is so large) or in mere 9 seconds by one dedicated heavy gunship (I'm fairly sure Hammerhead will have no trouble getting 5 out of 6 turrets on target). After disabling the ship, hammerhead could then just shoot it full of holes with a missile barrage. And that's without even considering ships specifically designed to hunt capital ships, the kinda that come equipped with large torpedoes.

That doesn't leave much room for escort gameplay: You either have enough escorts to destroy every ship entering the range within few seconds, or you don't. It really helps if the ship that's being protected is moving at max speed already, in which case you probably wouldn't need escorts most of the time anyhow, as it doesn't take that long to spool the quantum drive and escape and the ships the size that would hold enough firepower won't be catching up with you anytime soon.

Anyhow, the way I see it, we'll end up having with TTK increased all across the board for all ships. Smaller ships are probably closest to their actual values, but anything that is going to have gameplay with internal components and escape pods is likely going to get lot sturdier. Not necessarily more 'difficult' to kill, just takes longer to do so.

The question is how long will it be, to destroy a ship?

Now, if you come under attack, one thing is you could open up your mobiglass, go to contracts, beacons, and then request combat assistance. This doesn't really work when your ship will be blown up halfway through deploying the beacon, let alone anyone having time to answer it. The closest small and medium sized fighters would still take several minutes to merely travel to the location, and those kind of ships would be who are primarily answering to combat beacons.

This, to me, would seem like especially large and capital ships would take at least a few minutes in most cases, with attacker using a small fleet of ships dedicated for piracy. Capitals should, in my opinion, take like 10 minutes to hammer down with a fleet dedicated at taking down capital ships and their escorts. I mean, it should at least take longer than traveling through a couple of systems, can't be 90% quantum travel and 1% of dying in combat with 9% waiting for expedited respawns. Besides, with med-beds and whatnot, I'd see large battles with couple capital ships and various smaller ones taking over an hour with a half broken capital ship having time to limp behind an asteroid to do some quick repairs while the other one holds out.

Now, if your ship has escape pods, it wouldn't make much sense if you never had any time to run to them. And you wouldn't run to the escape pod if the battle was just starting, you'd probably wait until at least the shields were gone, and maybe the hull was at 25% or 50%. So the last 25% to 50% of hull would need to take like 10-20 seconds to destroy in an average assault, depending on the ships layout. So any ship with escape pods should take like a minute total against reasonable enemy. I mean, if it's something absurd, like freelancer getting hit by a size 9 torpedo, then yeah, it's gone in an instant. But maybe a cutlass and couple of buccaneers would take a bit over a minute to drop that freelancer.

So all in all, when we get features like medical gameplay, escape pods, fixing ships internal components, etc. we should start seeing TTK go up for ships.

As you said only the small fighters are even somewhat close to being balanced. And the reason for this is only the single-seat fighters have had any true sort of balance passes which have been gleamed from Arena Commander. The other issue is lots of missing gameplay elements like components and armor have not yet made an appearance in the game. Chris, Tony, Todd, and Brian have all talked about how they want combat to be long enough and that ships currently are lacking the disabled feature. That once ships are disabled it should open up new combat opportunities like boarding parties as well as a race to repair disabled ships in the hopes of re-entering the fight. That blowing up a ship will be something that is far more rare.
 
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Shadow Reaper

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Found this, thought it was interesting:

I would love to find that spreadsheet. I poked around and could not, so if anyone here has a link, please do share.

I'm not down with the notion that a single small ship should never be able to destroy a bigger one. I think it ought to be fantastically hard for a Mustang to down a StarG. Every moment the Mustang is under the SG's guns, it is one breathe away from extinction. If I player has the right weapons for the task, and can fly defensive enough to put down the thousands of points damage, he ought to have a chance in some circumstances, to kill a much larger target.

From what I see in the vids, the most poorly balanced part of the game at present seems to be the missiles. They should be greatly upgraded, IMHO. Also, I don't think gameplay is well served by making battles that last 3 minutes into battles that last ten minutes. Most real conflicts between fighters last a few seconds. I'm not saying we should develop a system like the F35 flying into missile lock range, launching and leaving. That does not sound like fun, but that is really what combat looks like these days.

From what I see on the vids, no one kills with missiles, and that needs to change. It ought to be that missiles are often the most effective way to kill, albeit expensive.
 
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Bambooza

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I would love to find that spreadsheet. I poked around and could not, so if anyone here has a link, please do share.

I'm not down with the notion that a single small ship should never be able to destroy a bigger one. I think it ought to be fantastically hard for a Mustang to down a StarG. Every moment the Mustang is under the SG's guns, it is one breathe away from extinction. If I player has the right weapons for the task, and can fly defensive enough to put down the thousands of points damage, he ought to have a chance in some circumstances, to kill a much larger target.

From what I see in the vids, the most poorly balanced part of the game at present seems to be the missiles. They should be greatly upgraded, IMHO. Also, I don't think gameplay is well served by making battles that last 3 minutes into battles that last ten minutes. Most real conflicts between fighters last a few seconds. I'm not saying we should develop a system like the F35 flying into missile lock range, launching and leaving. That does not sound like fun, but that is really what combat looks like these days.

From what I see on the vids, no one kills with missiles, and that needs to change. It ought to be that missiles are often the most effective way to kill, albeit expensive.

TTk/disable really should be based on the size and class of ship. While fighter on fighter should be in the under 5 minute range that time should expand as the ships get bigger allowing for capital ship battles to last half an hour or more allowing far more gameplay opportunities like boarding party attempts and calling of reinforcements within the system. Maybe we can say 3 to 5 minutes for capital ship on capital ship to reach disablement but to truly make it Reclaimer food would require a lot more effort.

As for the Mustang taking on a StarG it might be possible for it to disable the StarG with ballistic weapons and targeting key components but it should not be able to overcome the shield recharge rate or have enough ammo to punch through all of the armor. (might be possible to make the reactor go critical and if not delt with the StarG could blow up) This I would be ok with.
 
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