Scammers on the rise

DirectorGunner

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I personally got snobby by not liking or wanting CCUs anymore.
I must have originals only now... or bust.

Hangar walls and floors are to be filled with posters and models!

@Stevetank lol why you have so much kindness?!


Is it true Cutlass Blue and Reds never had a LTI concept sale?
 

Sirus7264

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@DirectorGunner
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ojxR84DJlX9i7Zu0ZrYkWPhKQUYIcK5bx5Ia8fQgimY/edit#gid=463588656
I also searched for images of the packages I saw the red had 6 month insurance package and the blue had an anniversary package with 24 month insurance. What you could do though is get the Fleet package which comes with all 3 for 2700 with LTI. This gives you the handcuffs, baton and poster for the 3.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Combos/Fleet-Pack-Digital
Another option you can do is use the cutlass blue or cutlass red upgrade(not ccu) on a cutlass black and you will get the advocacy tools with it.
https://forums.starcitizenbase.com/topic/21127-cutlass-blue-original-concept-wlti/
Long story short there was never a concept sale for the cutlass blue or red just the upgrades which you used on the black.(very rare now)
 

makute

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imo it's selfish to try to make a profit on ship pledges as the profit only helps yourself not the buyer or CIG.
And if you use the profit to re-invest into CIG, that's great BUT you basically penalized the buyer for missing out on the original pledge themselves by charging that "premium".
Not my intention to be patronizing (though I may sound like I am), but I'd like to stand up for all the honest grey marketers and add to the above:

Of course it's selfish to make a profit, it would be hypocrite so say otherwise. In my case, I use some of the benefits on my own behalf (paying bills mostly), but a great part of the benefits are reinvested in the purchase of accounts to keep the business up and running.

I don't think resellers penalize buyers for missing the sale of a limited ship. They are limited anyway. If a buyer can't wait for the next anniversary sale and is willing to pay a plus for the chance to grab a desired ship, it's entirely up to them. This is specially true with Rear Admiral physical packages and Phoenixes. Those suckers are extremely hard to get by, and I've made very happy to whom I've sold them.

Lastly, I'd like to talk about if the grey market damages or helps CIG. I had a similar conversation with another seller not long ago, and he shared some numbers with me. We came to the conclusion that CIG is making a good chunk of money thanks to the resellers. How, do you ask? Easy: all those accounts we strip out of contents would be either refunded (a neat loss for CIG) or simply abandoned. In the case of accounts with plenty of Buy Back items it's even better. All those ships, packages and addons are brought to life again with fresh cash from the seller, and that's a gain for CIG. When someone "buy back" something with the intention of transferring said item to someone else (be it a sale or a gift, it doesn't matter) CIG's making money out of thin air, quite literally.

Edit: grammar.
 
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Sirus7264

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Not my intention to be patronizing (though I may sound like I am), but I'd like to stand up for all the honest grey marketers and add to the above:

Of course it's selfish to make a profit, it would be hypocrite so say otherwise. In my case, I use some of the benefits on my own behalf (paying bills mostly), but a great part of the benefits are reinvested in the purchase of accounts to keep the business up and running.

I don't think resellers penalize buyers for missing the sale of a limited ship. They are limited anyway. If a buyer can't wait for the next anniversary sale and is willing to pay a plus for the chance to grab a desired ship, it's entirely up to them. This is specially true with Rear Admiral physical packages and Phoenixes. Those suckers are extremely hard to get by, and I've make very happy to whom I've sold them.

Lastly, I'd like to talk about if the grey market damages or help CIG. I had a similar conversation with another seller not long ago, and he shared some numbers with me. We came to the conclusion that CIG is making a good chunk of money thanks to the resellers. How, do you ask? Easy: all those accounts we strip out of contents would be either refunded (a neat loss for CIG) or simply abandoned. In the case of accounts with plenty of Buy Back items it's even better. All those ships, packages and addons are brought to life again with fresh cash from the seller, and that's a gain for CIG. When someone "buy back" something with the intention of transferring said item to someone else (be it a sale or a gift, it doesn't matter) CIG's making money out of thin air, quite literally.
My worries with this though is people are deciding to suddenly come back to the game reclaim their accounts and all the pledges. It then hurts all the people who bought from those "Sold" accounts. I'm very very wary from who i buy from and how i buy it.
 

makute

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That's an understandable concern, but rarely happens. When an account is reclaimed by its previous owner, there is a 99'9% chance that it's been a planned scam, and those can be (mostly) evaded or reversed. Personally, after 4 years in the market, I've had only one account reclaimed yet, and that was a calculated risk I took in order to study a scammer's behaviour.
 

Sirus7264

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It's happening all over reddit at the moment tons of random 1 day old accounts or suddenly someone who hasnt used reddit in over a year suddenly trying to sell everything on their accounts. They are coming out of the woodworks. Even Kane got scammed the other day and cig wont try to right the wrong as there post on it is you took your own risk on the market. I almost got screwed myself on ebay lucky for me ebay gives 60 days to get refunded in cases like that. he waited till just over a month.
 

makute

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Of course. The most coverage SC gets, the most individuals will try to make an easy money. When I said "but rarely happens", I was refering specifically to a seller backpedaling and trying to get his/her account back without sinister intentions.
 

makute

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Yep, that guy bypassed even Kane's security procedures.
Luckily, in the end, he was reported and every victim recovered their money thanks to Paypal Buyer's Protection.
 

DirectorGunner

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Not my intention to be patronizing (though I may sound like I am), but I'd like to stand up for all the honest grey marketers and add to the above:

Of course it's selfish to make a profit, it would be hypocrite so say otherwise. In my case, I use some of the benefits on my own behalf (paying bills mostly), but a great part of the benefits are reinvested in the purchase of accounts to keep the business up and running.

I don't think resellers penalize buyers for missing the sale of a limited ship. They are limited anyway. If a buyer can't wait for the next anniversary sale and is willing to pay a plus for the chance to grab a desired ship, it's entirely up to them. This is specially true with Rear Admiral physical packages and Phoenixes. Those suckers are extremely hard to get by, and I've made very happy to whom I've sold them.

Lastly, I'd like to talk about if the grey market damages or helps CIG. I had a similar conversation with another seller not long ago, and he shared some numbers with me. We came to the conclusion that CIG is making a good chunk of money thanks to the resellers. How, do you ask? Easy: all those accounts we strip out of contents would be either refunded (a neat loss for CIG) or simply abandoned. In the case of accounts with plenty of Buy Back items it's even better. All those ships, packages and addons are brought to life again with fresh cash from the seller, and that's a gain for CIG. When someone "buy back" something with the intention of transferring said item to someone else (be it a sale or a gift, it doesn't matter) CIG's making money out of thin air, quite literally.

Edit: grammar.
Buying of accounts is black market and just a terrible idea yea agree there.

But I respectfully disagree about turning a PLEDGE system into a means to support yourself.

Here's a really really long winded reason why.
If you had physical collectibles.. or shoot... if it were allowed.. in game currency for sale which you worked your butt off for.
Then sure... I'd say whatever is allowed and acceptable by most, go for it.

But the truth of the matter is, other than the money you used to pledge, you didn't work your butt off to create that particular pledge itself...
what I mean is you didn't create the ships... the assets... the lighting... the texturing... you didn't create anything for the game... neither did I or most of us... And in this instance you're not selling anything which you worked hard to unlock or earn... other than using your money to pledge. What I'm getting at is, CIG fucked up by creating this scarcity in pledges in the first place, but to use their fuck up to turn a profit IRL... when that excess in money doesn't benefit the new adopter of the same pledge in anyway... is just imho.. no offense.. lazy and taking advantage of an imperfect system.

Yes I absolutely love the idea that some sellers who do earn a little profit (I loath that part) put it right back into Star Citizen as a way to eventually leverage their pledges to get into the pledges that they want. If you sell enough ships at a $5 profit... 100 sales later you can get an explorer pack at the COST of all your previous buyers.

But to use that profit to pay your bills.... no... there's other ways to make money that have a much higher comparative advantage. For example... I could EASILY sell some of my LTI buybacks for $20 bucks over melt.... Because I'm a stay at home Dad, using government loans to complete my undergrad so I can get into law school (covered by same loans). I work from home and make SHIT money right now compared to what I used to.
But you will NEVER (I've made up my mind for myself in that matter) see me sell any of my buybacks for a profit. At most I ask for pp fees to be covered.

And it is my very strong belief... with all due respect to everyone else.. that.. that's the way in which I think it's better for everyone in the community.
When anyone in the community can pledge, and get the maximum benefit for their pledge.
The whole limited LTI thing too is a whole other related topic that I can really rant about too. .... another time. lol.

Now for everyone else that disagrees that's absolutely fine.. I'm not judging you as a person and go on doing what you're doing. Do I like it? No.. Do I have to like it? No.. will I still treat you as a human being? Yea probably... for the most part. lol And even though I still buy pledges at a loss (by excess going to seller instead of CIG by my hand directly) it doesn't mean I don't boil inside over it.. briefly.. and then move on. But for me... I've made up my mind.. that for myself.. that behavior is unacceptable. I can work harder on say Fiverr to try to earn more money or post more often on Linkedin to try to earn more clients... I will not make a profit at the expense of fellow fans with pledges. I may overpower you for whatever asteroid you starting mining after me... but not with pledges. Pledges are a sacred thing. Honor them, love them, share them (at cost lol).
 
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Doyzer

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Once again all good points @DirectorGunner

I am on the opposite side of the fence. I do sell buybacks for a small profit via Star Hanger or Star Citizen Trades. I do it because CIG created a system to make those valuable. Like you said, CIG created the scarcity of certain items to make them valuable. Don't hold it against me.

Like many others, I over-spent in the beginning. I found these trade sites and used them as a way to unload my excess items. The rest is history.
 
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makute

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he took skins from CSGO and other keys from other games in exchange for his hacked ships which he reclaimed.
Only from one guy, IIRC. No sane trader would ever buy an account without the protection of a Paypal invoice.

is just imho.. no offense.. lazy and taking advantage of an imperfect system.
Do not worry mate, I take no offense and really appreciate the exchange :slight_smile:

Because I'm a stay at home Dad
That's exactly my situation. I'm a father of two kids, and though my wife has a nice job, we still needed aditional income to make ends meet after I lost my job. I tried to turn my hobby into a bussines, and have been selling comics, books, vynils and other collectibles locally for a few years. Didn't plan to diversify into the digital market, but when I saw what my GT account was worth I gave it a try. As Doyzer said "the rest is history".

I understand your reserves about the resale of pledges, but whatever you like or not, CIG decisions (maybe
involuntarily) were key into the birth of the grey market. Nothing I ever sold was made by my own hands: comics, LPs, miniatures, RPG books, etc. were made by other persons. I see no diference between selling a physical collectible or a virtual one, when I find a deal I grab it and try to make a profit from it.

What doesn't change is the service and support I give along with the purchase. I do my best to offer the safest experience possible (proof is that after hundreds of transactions, I've never had an item reclaimed... yet *knocks on wood*). Every time, I give advice to any potential buyer and help him to make the most with his money. Sometimes, as many others at Starcitizen_sales, I recommend an anxious buyer to wait a few days, buy an LTI token and build his/her desired ship by themselves. Never a buyer has been coerced into buying anything (that I'm aware of). In the end, we are all adults making our own decisions.
 

Sirus7264

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Only from one guy, IIRC. No sane trader would ever buy an account without the protection of a Paypal invoice.
Actually 3 people via CSGO skins then there was a starfarer guy from 3 months ago and a few others. the starfarer guy is screwed pretty much that deal was way to long ago.
 

Takeiteasy

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I'm quite happy my one eBay purchase went smoothly and has not been reclaimed or removed from me. I'll keep an eye out but very rarely deal in the grey market any way.
 

DirectorGunner

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I understand your reserves about the resale of pledges, but whatever you like or not, CIG decisions (maybe
involuntarily) were key into the birth of the grey market. Nothing I ever sold was made by my own hands: comics, LPs, miniatures, RPG books, etc. were made by other persons. I see no diference between selling a physical collectible or a virtual one, when I find a deal I grab it and try to make a profit from it.
.
Good point, in the qualitative difference as being a completed product, sure. However the pledges are different from the comparison between a completed digital good or physical comic book. I too have a collection... quite massive for gears of war.. one of the largest in the world:
I will be selling majority of my collections to support my Star Citizen pledge goals. For supporting my family I do work by selling my services instead of items because with MOST items profit margin is minimal; which, is only made up for by reaching a large volume of sales. My time is better used in that regard to sell services because of that comparative advantage.
I went off course, digressed, to get back on topic, a PLEDGE is a conditional donation. Yes CIG messed this whole thing up, and really even CIG has advertised "BUYING" ships instead of using the term Pledge Reward or incentive. The terminology difference is important and purchasing in most countries AFAIK entitles you to more rights than donations., regardless of digital TOS agreements. Government laws supersede electronic TOS agreements. I digress again, damn it, there's a lot of variables that tie in to the overall issue I'm trying to discuss.. which is.
Is a PLEDGE reward the same as a purchased digital good?

And my argument is the answer is no if the term we are discussing is a true Pledge
...which another argument could be made that CIG has moved away from keeping this fund raising model an actual real pledge system anymore.

Being neither a physical good nor a digital good, what is it? a donation reward. Not a digital good that is "purchase-able" with the rights that are included with such.

And to argue with myself....
IMO.. CIG has moved away from the traditional pledge system by using the terminology and selling tactics that pledge rewards and incentives are actually purchase-able goods now. This means.. that.. much like comic book purchases.. imo and AFAIK you have inalienable rights in your country for whatever laws your country has concerning digital goods... it may not be the case.. we'd need legal council in each of our own countries to know for sure... If someone wants to find out that'd be great!

So then boiling that down further on why I feel so strongly about not making a profit off these purchases....
NEXT ISSUE:
Are these purchases funding the development of a currently unfinished product... any different from purchases of finished products?
In some part yes... yes it is different.

You see... let's say there was partial comic books, priced at over 500% the print cost, that an artist was selling to raise funds to do a graphic novel.. let's assume every fan of this artist really wanted that graphic novel to release... some donate directly without buying the partial comics.. others want immediate maximum benefit for their "donation" so instead they buy the partial comic books (that's like most of us buying these ship packages/pledges).

Others see opportunity to exploit the few who feel the need to collect and/or own these partial comic books from the first print cycle... there's reprints (CCUs) but let's assume purist collectors and super fans desire comics from the first printing. Each exploited sale doesn't benefit the artist at all (albeit cash buyback purchases still support CIG) but rather the exploiter. The super fan collector gets the 1st printing they missed at an outrageous premium... and many of them shortly later feel a bit of disdain and buyers remorse for letting their excitement and fandom cloud their judgement. As they "OVERVALUED" the collectible partial comic they purchased and the loss they incurred did not help the artist. This is indicative of exactly what happens in the stock market due to greed/fear in undervaluing or overvaluing a stock.

I DO NOT want to be a guy responsible for someone else's buyers remorse for having paid way too much for what's supposed to be a pledge reward. I do not want to be the guy that is essentially taking potential money AWAY from CIG. And I do not want to be the guy exploiting a system designed to benefit the development of an amazing game. I would say, the comparison between these pledge rewards and other digital goods as are to physical goods when trading/selling... is an apples to oranges comparison.
And therefor a fallacious stance on the issue.

This grey market profit selling exploitation, mixed with fans over excitement clouding their judgement, has created a overvaluation of these ships.
And what happens when things get overvalued?
People end up losing big, while the exploiters sit on a throne of everyone else's loses.

In the real world, outside of fundraising, yea sure.. sell away overvalued assets because people are generally pretty stupid and emotionally driven.
But when fundraising is involved.. like saving people or animals or creating something useful.. don't be that guy or gal pooping in the sandbox and taking out all the toys for themselves.
 
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Stevetank

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I personally got snobby by not liking or wanting CCUs anymore.
I must have originals only now... or bust.

Hangar walls and floors are to be filled with posters and models!

@Stevetank lol why you have so much kindness?!


Is it true Cutlass Blue and Reds never had a LTI concept sale?
I do this because I want people to fund the game. I need them to spend money so that my game experience can be better. I don't mind pitching in $3 or $5 to get them to do this, ha. The more all of us continue to find this game, the more all of us can enjoy it with more features :)
 
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