Ship for dangerous traderoutes

FZD

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I guess for normal cargo or standard cargo runs where you can buy insurance yes I get this but what about mining some super rare material or salvaging something you cant replace or that insurance does not apply to, say there are pirates or a pirate fleet just waiting for someone to mine or salvage something they cant do themselves and waiting for someone to do it this is where escorts will prove invaluable they will think twice attacking a large ship with escorts as opposed to no escorts and I would assume they have a contingent for someone trying to run.

Again a lot of unknowns but with that comes a lot of possible scenario's I cant imagine the only hauling/cargo runs available will be insured ones otherwise the risk is so small like you said it would make the game down right boring, there has to be risk vs reward and to me this is where those possibilities exist there has to be something so valuable that people are willing to kill or die for it, otherwise people will just ram their ship with cargo into the attacker and say oh well its insured lol.
Or could be that pirates who see a ship without escorts will assume it's empty. I mean, what sort of a dummy would go around without escorts? Capturing an empty ship is not worth the effort. Now if the ship has escorts, you know they're transporting something valuable enough to warrant escorts. That's the target you want to attack.

As I recall, the insurances are divided into several categories based on how dangerous the sector is. You could insure, at an increasing cost, everything but the most lethal sector, and I probably wouldn't go for the max danger without a full convoy. I'd ideally want a ship that can hold off most attacks for long enough to jump away, operating on a route that is not safe enough for majority of traders, but no suicide either. Finding the kinda balance. Oh, and the insurance doesn't net you profit, ofc. It just keeps the losses minimal. (And the whole insurance gameplay still remains to be implemented, meaning it'll probably change. A lot.)
 
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SoloFlyer

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I guess for normal cargo or standard cargo runs where you can buy insurance yes I get this but what about mining some super rare material or salvaging something you cant replace or that insurance does not apply to, say there are pirates or a pirate fleet just waiting for someone to mine or salvage something they cant do themselves and waiting for someone to do it this is where escorts will prove invaluable they will think twice attacking a large ship with escorts as opposed to no escorts and I would assume they have a contingent for someone trying to run.

Again a lot of unknowns but with that comes a lot of possible scenario's I cant imagine the only hauling/cargo runs available will be insured ones otherwise the risk is so small like you said it would make the game down right boring, there has to be risk vs reward and to me this is where those possibilities exist there has to be something so valuable that people are willing to kill or die for it, otherwise people will just ram their ship with cargo into the attacker and say oh well its insured lol.
Perhaps this has been discussed before and I've missed it, but I'm having trouble seeing how would you guys go about hiring an escort for something like a mining run? If insurance won't apply because you're actually going out and getting the material "out there", plus you don't know what kind of haul you're going to end up with vs time spent collecting it, how would you come up with a formula for paying your escorts and making sure you're still turning a profit? Wouldn't it only make sense to hire an escort for something like salvaging or mining when you are going to a known quantity somewhere and you can better estimate what you're going to come back with?
 
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wmk

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/.../ Then the real business happens. The Vanguard's combined nose guns do 17,880 distortion dps, so if they're all hitting, the shields come down in 3.2 seconds and the computer almost immediately afterward. During that last stage of flight the Vanguard will need to slide through a turn and start to circle to match velocities, and again it is going to be hard to hit. However, if the biggest turret on the SF locks on it with its pair of Revenants, and every one of those shots hit for a full 5 seconds, they could do as much as 6,720 damage to the Hoplite. Lets be generous and suppose all those shots hit the same shield. If it's flying stock shields (not recommended) that shield will go from 21,000 to 15,100. The SF's biggest guns barely make a dent. If half that damage flies through the shields (Rev's are ballistic) it will take about 3k damage. The hull of the Hoplite is 31.8k. It can shrug off <10% damage.
/.../
Hi Shadow!
Sanzennin listed SF Gemini on his list, not the base civilian variant. Gemini doesn't have any ballistic guns in its loadout since SC Alpha 3.5 -- it's equipped with 4 x gimbaled M6A Laser Cannons with over 4200km range, and 2 x CF-557 Galdereen Repeaters with even longer range of 4700km. Besides, the size of both weapons suppose to be increased before the game release, unless CIG changes their mind.

So, even at this *early* stage, Gemini can hit you hard before you manage to approach it * and use any of the default Vanguard guns, especially distortion cannons with their relatively short range. And don't forget about Gemini's 9 x Size 3 Arrester III missiles, which can be replaced for example with Thunderbolt III (IR). Also, after recent update, Gemini has Size 3 Stronghold with 89934 hp (1927.588 hp/s regen). It's no longer easy to kill, and at the same time, it hits hard. I'm currently using it as a bounty hunting ship, killing pirate AI Buccaneers in only few seconds ; )

* -- unless it's floating happily in deep space with the crew eating dinner in mess hall, or is parked on a planet surface outside safe zone
 
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FZD

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Perhaps this has been discussed before and I've missed it, but I'm having trouble seeing how would you guys go about hiring an escort for something like a mining run? If insurance won't apply because you're actually going out and getting the material "out there", plus you don't know what kind of haul you're going to end up with vs time spent collecting it, how would you come up with a formula for paying your escorts and making sure you're still turning a profit? Wouldn't it only make sense to hire an escort for something like salvaging or mining when you are going to a known quantity somewhere and you can better estimate what you're going to come back with?
Last time I tried discussing anything about coming up with formulas for hired crew, escorts, etc. it turned ugly ;__;

Anyhow, the way I'd do it is escorts get a cut of the profits once you return from the trip. I think the most fair system would include consideration for how big of a risk everybody is taking, how beneficial their contribution to the excursion is likely to be, etc. and then turning those into shares of Mining Operation Incorporated, and then when everything is sold and counted for pay out dividends for the shares.

Like say you go on an excursion with 2 prospectors, two mustangs and a constellation, could be prospectors would get 3 shares each, mustangs 2 each and constellation captain 3, and the turret gunners 1 each. Once the conny is full, the prospectors are full, go around selling it and net 500k. Each share is 33.3k, prospectors get 100k each, mustangs 66k, conny captain 100k and turret gunners 33k. Would I sit in turret taking no risk, eating sandwich and watching TV for couple of hours while everybody else does all the work, 'just in case I'm needed', and still get 33k for my trouble? Yes, I would. So yeah, I think that's fair.

One alternative is equal shares regardless of contribution. Idk, in that kinda system, I would definitely want to be the turret gunner, but I'm only bit concerned that we'd have 7 people lining up for turret gunner positions and nobody doing the work.

And I think there are some other systems as well, like just agree that no matter what happens, escorts will get X and turret gunners Y, but the one organizing it all might then end up losing money rather than turning profit.

On the cargo hauling side, it could also be a system where everyone inputs an amount of money into the system, for buying cargo, and then gets a share of the profits proportional to their initial contribution. So say you want to risk 50k, escort captain throws in 100k and the turret gunner 200k. You buy stuff worth 350k and set out, everything goes nicely and you end up with 500k. You get 71k, escort captain gets 142k and the turret gunner gets 285k.
 
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Thalstan

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If you are doing solo hauling without escorts, I would top out at the Freelancer MAX and Connie Taurus. 120-150 ish SCU of cargo, tons of forward firepower, the ability to run if needed, and good ships if you know how to fight them. These are probably the biggest solo ships out there.

Even ships like the Cat you will want escorts for any bigger loads of goods. Yes, 70k of scrap, you may not want an escort, but a load of ore costing 500k or more? yeah, you are going to want escorts and gunners on dangerous routes. Even on a safe route, you might want an escort or two to run interference.
 

Thalstan

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On the cargo hauling side, it could also be a system where everyone inputs an amount of money into the system, for buying cargo, and then gets a share of the profits proportional to their initial contribution. So say you want to risk 50k, escort captain throws in 100k and the turret gunner 200k. You buy stuff worth 350k and set out, everything goes nicely and you end up with 500k. You get 71k, escort captain gets 142k and the turret gunner gets 285k.
For escort/protection duty of mining/gathering ships where no one is really risking anything they put UEC into, shares work, and I think miners, overwatch, and explorers (those that are just looking for the best rocks while the miners keep busy mining) each getting a share. I think haulers and escort for the haulers would also get a share once you can drop off your saddlebags.

For hauling guard duty, I suspect that once transactions get better in the verse, it will be done via ship and share system. Owner of the hauler gets a certain amount off the top, escorts get a certain amount off the top, the rest of the profits are split according to what people put in.

A group of 4 people go in on a cargo run. The Cat owner, and 3 owners of Vanguards. Each ship owner gets 3k from the profits (no profit, no pay). The rest of the profits are split according to percentage of the cargo they chipped in for. So if each puts in 100k, they split the profits equally after the 12k is deducted for the ship owners. If the vanguard owners all chip in 133k and the ship captain puts in none, then after the 12k ship fees are paid out, the vanguard owners split the rest of the profit equally and the owner of the Cat gets nothing beyond the ship fee. Gunners who attend might also get a certain amount off the top, or they might be paid from the ship fee. (if off ship fee, different ships might charge differently, so probably just a straight payment) If they buy into the cargo, they get their percentage of the profit as well.

The big profit/risk is from buying and selling the cargo. Splitting it into shares is the best way to share the wealth. If the Cat player just wants to hire escorts, expect to pay more...probably 10k for each ship, each leg or more. EDIT: This would also go for fighter owners who want to pay a caterpillar captain to haul their cargo. It would be a good way for a broke ship owner to earn some quick coin. In my example, I would probably charge someone 30-40k aUEC to haul a load of goods in my cat from one side of the Stanton system to another, depending on what was being hauled. If it was just scrap, I might only charge 10k for the haul and solo haul with them as escort or as gunners. For something more expensive, I would want more so I could hire gunners, or then supply the gunners and escort and I would take the 10k fee.
 
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Vavrik

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Last time I tried discussing anything about coming up with formulas for hired crew, escorts, etc. it turned ugly ;__;
Good ideas by the way, I just want to point out that there are a few others who are thinking about this same thing. Me included, and obviously I was a couple minutes late.
 
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Mastersan

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Well, it's an interesting question. Dangerous trade routes. I guess to compare the ships you may want to approach this from a different angle than just by looking at numbers on paper/spreadsheet.

I would ignore the escorts for now, as the aim is to compare the ships. With escorts you can hire an armada and the ship abilities may be ignored.

Also, I would assume that we are talking about a random encounter, i.e. a "pirate" or a group of pirates have not planned to target you specifically, since I believe if it is a targeted and planned attack, the kind of ship won't matter.

Now, trying to look at this from a pirate perspective. As a pirate, I don't want to destroy the ship, since I have spent money in preparation and will likely need to do some repairs and pay the crew, so just enjoying your ship exploding isn't going to make me richer. If my purpose is to destroy a cargo ship, then I'm probably an enemy military and I'm disrupting trade communications, in which case your kind of ship won't matter, since civilian vs military fights are somewhat predictable. If I'm a pirate, I either want you to pay me to pass freely, or I want the ship and cargo, which I can profit from.

To be able to intimidate you I need to look impressive, so that you don't want to fight and rather would want to pay for pass. Likewise, if I have to fight, I need to have an overwhelming force. What do we currently see when we are pulled out of quantum: a couple of Cutlass Black ships, a Connie Andromeda, 2-3 Buccaneers and sometimes a Caterpillar. I would add a Mantis or something what can kick you out of quantum and prevent you from going into quantum again. Mantis and Cat likely won't engage, so your ship is likely to be confronted by 2-3 Buccaneers, 2 Cutties and a Connie.

The ships like Buccaneer and Cutlass don't need to get a ton of damage before being disabled, but you need to be able to hit them, and if you can't hit, it doesn't matter how good and powerful your weapons are. It's similar how you don't bring the Scourge Railgun into Evict Illicit Occupants mission, even though on paper the railgun has a ton of damage. Even a pistol, which on paper has almost no damage, would perform better in this scenario. Also, missiles may be very handy, since even 1 missile can disable a Buccaneer, but many repeater shots may just miss.

The large ships won't be able to outrun smaller and more nimble pirate ships, so there will likely be no escape and there will be a 2-staged fight: ship fight and boarding fight. Therefore, your goal is to take down as many ships as possible before boarding, or even better - prevent boarding stage from occurring. You could try taking down a Mantis to be able to quantum out, but I doubt you will succeed, as the interdiction ship will be hiding.

What would I do if I'm a pirate and I'm engaging you. First, I will try to disable your ship, take down shields and engines. When engaging I will try to attack you from the least protected side.

I believe it also makes sense to look at the nature of the ships, given the lack of information, to try and guess how these ships would perform. All ships have same size components (Large), but different number of them.

So, how these ships are stacking up now:

Starfarer Gemini: A civilian tanker ship, adapted by the military.
A lot of forward facing guns, turrets at the rear and bottom, almost unprotected sides. Engines are exposed and easy to target, as they are placed outside of the hull. Not very maneuverable, so unlikely will be able to do anything once Cutties and Buccaneers get into the unprotected area. The ship's weaponry is likely to work well against a larger target, like a Connie but not against small and nimble targets. The number of turrets may do a quick job of taking down pirates. However, likely that many turrets will create a significant power drain, and with distortion cannons being fired, this kind of firepower may be a disadvantage, as all of them will go down due to lack of power.
The ship has 1 power plant and 1 shield generator, which may be a stretch to keep running, given the number of guns to keep firing and incoming distortion damage. 2 coolers should provide enough cooling for short intense skirmish, but probably won't be able to handle a prolonged fight, given the power drain.

Is this ship easy to board? It has several entry points, making it difficult to control them all. Also, the ship has a layout making it somewhat more difficult to defend, as there are not too many positions where you could flank the boarding party.

Likely the best scenario for the ship is to skirmish and attack first, utilising the impressive firepower, then the remaining pirate forces will unlikely to be able to take you down. If the fight goes into a deadlock, you probably won't be able to last and eventually go down.


Hercules M2: A civilian version of military gunship, repurposed for cargo hauling.
The ships has less firepower, but the turrets are covering front, back and the ship's belly, however, sides also appear not protected. moreover, the engines are placed deeper inside the ship's hull, therefore making it more difficult to disable, still possible however, as parts of engines are exposed. Overall, it seems a pirate has the same difficulty as when dealing with the Starfarer when finding an unprotected area on the ship, but if the engines could hold up for longer, before being disabled, you may have more time to take down pirate ships. A smaller number of turrets may be not a bad thing under a distortion cannon fire, as they may not have a large power drain and be able to keep firing.
The ship has 1 power plant, but 2 shield generators, so it should last longer against the distortion damage. Also, with less guns and less power draw, an overclocked power plant and shield generators may be able to hold a bit longer to give the turrets more time to take pirates down. 1 cooler may be adequate for the components, but under overclocked scenario may not last long, given 2 shield generators.

The boarding defense effectiveness is TBC, as the ship is not in game. Even if it is on par with the Starfarer, if more pirate ships are disabled, it will be easier to defend the ship from the boarding, as there will be less pirates boarding.

The likely scenario for this ship is to try and outlast the enemies, as it's unlikely going to be able to take down many pirates quickly, like the Starfarer. But with the good coverage, and 2 shield generators this may be possible. The ship looks a bit vulnerable though.


Merchantman: A civilian ship designed for cargo haul, long-term stay and merchandising activities.
Can't say much about the turrets and coverage, yet to be seen I guess. The engines are placed in the hull but still somewhat exposed, so vulnerable, probably except the central engine, which sits in the hull. The hip should be able to keep it's engines for a bit longer than Starfarer. Also, can't say much about boarding as the ship is not in game. Also, given there isn't much to say about it's turrets, can't say anything about the likelihood of taking down pirate ships before the boarding begins.
The ship, however, has 2 power plants, 2 shield generators and 2 coolers, all overclocked should result in a pretty difficult nut to crack, so this will come down to how effectively the Merchantman can shoot down the enemies.

The likely scenario for this ship is to do as much damage with the forward facing weaponry, and then outlast the enemies, which should be quite possible given the redundancy. The concern is only 2 turrets, so this ship may be good against larger ships, but for smaller targets it relies on Defender fighters.


Carrack: A military reconnaissance ship, decommissioned and repurposed for civilian exploration.
The ship has 4 large turrets covering top, bottom, front and rear. Also, it has a snub fighter, maybe a light fighter to beef it up. The engines are encased in the ship's hull and not exposed, so likely will be able to run the longest before disabled. With all sides covered with turrets and engines protected, this ship likely has more chances to stay the longest before being disabled, therefore having more chances to take more pirates down. Also, if a light fighter may be fit in, then it could be something like a Hawk, which can use an EMP to disable the pirates, so that the Carrack can take them down.
The ship has 2 shield generators, so should be able to last (also remember the Anvil's trademark tough as nails armor). 2 coolers should provide enough cooling for all the turrets on a continuous basis. The only concern is the single power plant, so power management is going to be required.

It is also difficult to say anything about the ship's layout, but it seems the design supports the boarding defense looking at places and structures you could sue to take cover.

The scenario for this ship would depend on a fighter available. It may be an intense skirmish and then an exercise to outlast the enemies. Otherwise you may try to take down and damage as many pirates as you can, before deploying a fighter.


In summary:
  • Carrack looks the most self sufficient (and a Connie is a mini-Carrack): has a complete protection coverage with good firepower, tough armor and good shielding, also can play a wild card, a fighter. After all, this is a military ship is designed to fly into uncharted space with no escort.

  • Starfarer Gemini looks like a great skirmisher, with impressive firepower, which needs to be utilised quickly, before enemies can surround you. The armor and shielding don't look as great, and engines are exposed, so try to end fights quickly using all the guns you have. This makes sense, since the ship is designed to be a part of convoy, if attacked, fight back until the convoy ships close in to engage the enemies.

  • Hercules M2 looks like a balanced ship with good shielding and armor and a bit less firepower then the others. It has a good firing arch coverage and protection, the encounter may however be lengthy, and skilled gunners may be required to compensate the lack of firepower. The ship is also designed to be a part of convoy, so is likely designed to hold long enough for the convoy to come for help.

  • Merchantman is likely to be a very tough nut to crack, but crackable. It may sound counter-intuitive, but the ship may be the most vulnerable of all in a fight against small nimble targets. It will last long, but big guns are for larger ships and there are only 2 turrets, so the ship is likely to fall eventually. The ship is designed to fly with escort, so it loses effectiveness when left one on one with enemy forces.


There are other things to consider, like stealth and route planning. It's best to avoid any fights. Being a recon ship, the Carrack should probably be able to detect the enemies earlier, as well as it could find an entirely alternative route via a jump point that no one knows about.
 

Crymsan

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Its a shame you want to go stealth or speed but if they have auto interdiction then probably just the ability to blast through. It would be nice if you had very low chance of interdiction by going stealthy or fast just not sure it will work out that way. Sadly if its players I doubt it will ever be a fair fight whatever you bring, I.e. if they attack you with an even chance of you winning they are uhm not going to last long in the profession.

We don't know how electronics will work yet, i.e. can the carrack see far enough ahead to avoid being jumped (at least most of the time)?

They have changed the merchantman to need fighter escorts I.e. it is vulnerable to small ships, hopefully the shields will last a while though.

Mechanically we do not know whether this sort of run would need a team or whether it is possible for single ships (whatever the crew requirements) to complete. Whilst this org is big flight times are real so having a ship you can solo if you have an hour to log on makes sense. (other wise you will spend the hour meeting up (well if the universe ever expands that is).)
 
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Shadow Reaper

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Though if you found a stationary starfarer in space, that wouldn't be me. . .
I think we've confused several issues. We were speaking of the SF, not the StarG. I would not attack a StarG with a single Hoplite. Maybe with a Sentinal. The StarG has an S8 turret and S3 missiles. However, it has greatly reduced cargo, and I doubt you could use it as a hauler for other than fuel and earn a living.

When attacking from just fore of beam, the forward facing guns cannot come to bear. They fire forward. "Beam" is directly to the side. Attacking from just forward of beam on a ship that wallows like a garbage scow, is going to have the ship cross your path in a few seconds, and during the time that it is directly in front of you, all of your velocity is relative (sin 90* is 1). So you are closing on the tanker at 1 km/s. This is all going to be over before the tanker driver has time to brown his shorts. The entire assault should be under 10 seconds, and from the time that the first missiles originally hit, to the time that the computer goes down, is probably less than 6 seconds.

These are the consequences of flying a barn, that opponents cannot miss, that has but one shield. It is important to note that the SF and StarG can go 1 km/s, but they can't change direction and maintain that speed. If they're headed X and turn to Y, they start with no Y component, so are essentially at 0 m/s, and it takes forever to get those tankers up to speed. When I say "forever", I mean about several times as long as this entire engagement will last. This is a key component to why the SF, StarG and yes, even the Prowler, are not combat craft in the strickest sense. They afford almost no maneuverability. The designers gave them high top speeds, but they take a long time to get there. Because of the tanker's terrible turning, you are best off to stay on a steady course hoping your turrets will help, but if the attacker is flying defensive, odds are good the turrets won't land a single shot. For a general notion by the numbers, the SF takes 4.5 seconds just to turn its nose 90*, and it has no velocity in the new direction. It is drifting sideways. In 4.5 seconds this encounter is all but over.

If you want to take a ship like this to wild space, that is up to you, but just saying; it won't last long. Think about the consequences of a ship that opponents cannot miss, and that often cannot hit it's opponents.

Use escorts! Were I flying an SF I would add Tana's as finances allowed until I had about 8 of them. That means 16XS2 missiles/volley. No one wants to walk into that. The Tana can combine to fly all the guns from the single pilot's position (no copilot needed), and the Tana can launch 2XS2 per volley. If you have enough of them, players will leave you alone.
 
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Bambooza

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I think CIG will be smart enough to have trade lanes in established space that are safe enough for an average cargo run to get away with only a scrape or two. Pirates are going to have a much tougher time in "hisec" space like Earth or Terra on the straightaways between the major planets and jump points due to more police and Naval presence and (presumably) more neutral/anti-piracy ships that might lend a hand if they run across a Freelancer or whatever getting ganked.


EVE has a pretty good system where the higher security systems have faster NPC cop response time, and more dangerous systems have slower responses until eventually they stop coming at all.

However there will (again, likely) be a risk/reward factor- going off the beaten path and cutting through that asteroid field or nebula may save a ton of time and fuel costs, but it should increase the likelihood of something going wrong.

Even as someone interested in piracy I really want there to be a "carebear zone" where players can just run cargo and do other things without worrying about being jumped every time they leave the armistice zone. That way only the players who acknowledge the higher risks and feel comfortable with them strike out for the frontier space and full on lawless space.

One thing to take into consideration is unlike EVE disabling the com sat in an area will knock out communications and thus disrupt the response time of security forces.
 
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FZD

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I think we've confused several issues. We were speaking of the SF, not the StarG. I would not attack a StarG with a single Hoplite. Maybe with a Sentinal. The StarG has an S8 turret and S3 missiles. However, it has greatly reduced cargo, and I doubt you could use it as a hauler for other than fuel and earn a living.
I've been talking about Starfarer Gemini the whole time, but I see the confusion now. :)

When attacking from just fore of beam, the forward facing guns cannot come to bear. They fire forward. "Beam" is directly to the side.
I thought beam was the central piece of wood running the length of the ship? Well, I'm probably mistaken.

Attacking from just forward of beam on a ship that wallows like a garbage scow, is going to have the ship cross your path in a few seconds, and during the time that it is directly in front of you, all of your velocity is relative (sin 90* is 1). So you are closing on the tanker at 1 km/s. This is all going to be over before the tanker driver has time to brown his shorts. The entire assault should be under 10 seconds, and from the time that the first missiles originally hit, to the time that the computer goes down, is probably less than 6 seconds.
I see the position you mean now, but I don't see how you'd keep up. If the tanker is moving 1050 m/s (I notice I used the old 890 m/s in previous post, sorry), you'd need to turn your ship to follow just when you're at optimal range. Assuming you were already facing the right direction, you'd need 6.2 seconds to stop falling behind. If you were already moving 200 m/s in the right direction, you'd need 5.5 seconds. However, if you're shooting at the ship, you're not facing the right direction before it's already past you, and while Hoplite rotates relatively fast, it's not instantaneous. If you're at 90 degree angle, it'd take around a second. And while you can strafe in the right direction while turning, you won't be using the best thrusters on the ship and most of the thrust is lost to turning the ship anyways, and then some is lost to tangent. So all in all, you're either shooting at the ship as it's approaching your position, or you'll be manoeuvring to chase it.

These are the consequences of flying a barn, that opponents cannot miss, that has but one shield. It is important to note that the SF and StarG can go 1 km/s, but they can't change direction and maintain that speed. If they're headed X and turn to Y, they start with no Y component, so are essentially at 0 m/s, and it takes forever to get those tankers up to speed.
Well, 14.5 seconds from 0 to 1050 m/s, compared to 6.2 seconds for hoplite. Or... does that include afterburner? I've been kinda assuming it's the "max". Err, if it doesn't include the afterburner then the numbers are 10.2 seconds for Starfarer (btw, I'm talking about the Gemini still, I'm sorry if I'm confusing, I can't help it, seems like) and 4.4 seconds for hoplite. (Afterburner multiplier is 2, assuming this means twice the acceleration)

In anycase, you would shift from doing damage to the forward shield, to the side shield to the rear shield, then fall out of range for a bit and start doing damage to the rear shield again... wouldn't that make it kinda pointless to start firing before the starfarer has passed you? You can't get enough damage through the front in the twoish seconds it takes for it to pass, so you might as well start accelerating to match the speed so you wouldn't fall out of range when it passes you.

Use escorts! Were I flying an SF I would add Tana's as finances allowed until I had about 8 of them. That means 16XS2 missiles/volley. No one wants to walk into that. The Tana can combine to fly all the guns from the single pilot's position (no copilot needed), and the Tana can launch 2XS2 per volley. If you have enough of them, players will leave you alone.
I mean, if the enemy just needs to get one ship close to the starfarer for 5 seconds, I don't see the escorts being able to do much, especially with NPC pilots. And I would need to be carrying something worth as much as the starfarer itself if I were to make any profit after dividing with 10 players.

Oh, and do you think I should just put whole lot of distortion scatterguns on the gemini? Scatter guns will hit, and distortion is starting to seem kinda OP dps wise. And I don't necessarily need to destroy anything, just disable them till I can quantum. Could have 15020*4 dps on the pilots turrets, even if half of the pellets miss, it's still 30kdps. Then the top turret could carry regular lasers to finish off disabled enemies and harry any craft keeping distance. Could put 2*2*9936 dps on the rear turrets as well. I mean, if every pirate is going to use distortion weapons as well, then the short range isn't an issue.
 

Shadow Reaper

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. . .14.5 seconds from 0 to 1050 m/s, compared to 6.2 seconds for hoplite. Or... does that include afterburner?
I'm not familiar with any stats for main engine acceleration, but I think even unladen, the SF takes more on the order of a full minute to reach top speed. That's just from watching the vids. It takes 4.5 seconds to turn 90*, while the Vanguard takes about 1.1 seconds. It is unfortunate that the ships page does not include this stat and I am curious where you got your numbers from.
I mean, if the enemy just needs to get one ship close to the starfarer for 5 seconds, I don't see the escorts being able to do much, especially with NPC pilots.
As I was saying, no matter how bad the NPC AI is, the fact that 8 Tana's could launch 16 S2 missiles every few seconds is enough to dissuade any reasonable foe, and that's what you want. You want the pirates to skip you and move on to a softer target.

Oh, and do you think I should just put whole lot of distortion scatterguns on the gemini?
I would not. I would recommend ballistics. You want to put damage straight to hull if you need those guns at all, and you want the high projectile speed and longer range so you start hitting as far out as possible. But for fair and open disclosure, I ALWAYS recommend ballistics over lasers because I think the whole notion of taking down a shield before hitting the hull is a bad idea. The only down side to ballistics I can see is you need to practice proper trigger control and not shoot when you don't think you can hit.

I also think the opposite is true with fps weapons: the lower recoil, higher number of shots available and lack of personal shields (for now) suggests to me the Demeco is the best choice for fps combat. Especially once you're trying to take down targets like Vanduul that can take huge damage before going down, I think you want the Demeco. I still have not seen anything come close to how fast it puts down opponents.
 
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FZD

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I'm not familiar with any stats for main engine acceleration, but I think even unladen, the SF takes more on the order of a full minute to reach top speed. That's just from watching the vids. It takes 4.5 seconds to turn 90*, while the Vanguard takes about 1.1 seconds. It is unfortunate that the ships page does not include this stat and I am curious where you got your numbers from.
That is an excellent question. I was quite sure I used the right acceleration numbers to calculate the time it takes to reach top speed... but I guess my insomnia got in the way and I used the wrong formula, solved t from s = vt + 1/2at^2, which I needed to check the *distance* the hoplite would fall behind. That is not, however, suitable for calculating the time it takes to reach a speed, which would simply be (target_speed - current_speed) / acceleration. Guess my sleepy ass saw "s" and figured it stood for "speed", although I'd just used the formula for it's correct purpose literally 5 minutes before, and then again 5 minutes after.

Anyhow, I went ahead and tested in game to make sure, without afterburner it takes 50 seconds to reach top speed (which now once again was 890 m/s, although I'm near certain I got to 1050 m/s yesterday. Today felt somewhat slower reaching it too. Could it be I got boosted by a planet or something yesterday?) Using afterburner seems to shave off 10-20s out of it, depending on how skillfully you use it. Guess Starfarers actual acceleration (without AB) is currently around 17 m/s^2.

This is, however, great news in the scenario where the Starfarer is already traveling at top speed, as it means the hoplite would fall further behind when the starfarer passes it, as I also got way too optimistic figures for the hoplite.

As I was saying, no matter how bad the NPC AI is, the fact that 8 Tana's could launch 16 S2 missiles every few seconds is enough to dissuade any reasonable foe, and that's what you want. You want the pirates to skip you and move on to a softer target.
I don't know exactly how yet, but I'm sure those NPCs will f it up on regular basis. Could be they don't launch missiles nearly often enough, or could be they spend all their missiles when they spot the first hostile Aurora, meaning if a Hoplite approached while neutral and they used an aurora to pull all those missiles. Or could be 8 NPCs in a swarm is too much, and they'll crash into everything.

That being said, if the NPCs actually work, escorts don't bankrupt you, etc. Then yes, I will use escorts, I'm not gonna be stubborn about it if I can see it working. However, a lot of depends on how cargo insurance ends up working, how much profits is to be made on how dangerous route, and if jumping with escorts means the travel speed is averaged between the ships, if it's taken from the slowest ship, or if it's from the fastest.

I would not. I would recommend ballistics. You want to put damage straight to hull if you need those guns at all, and you want the high projectile speed and longer range so you start hitting as far out as possible. But for fair and open disclosure, I ALWAYS recommend ballistics over lasers because I think the whole notion of taking down a shield before hitting the hull is a bad idea. The only down side to ballistics I can see is you need to practice proper trigger control and not shoot when you don't think you can hit.
Hmm, well, I must experiment. Perhaps when we get a better variety of large ballistic weapons, now it's basically just lasers.
 

Phil

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Or could be that pirates who see a ship without escorts will assume it's empty. I mean, what sort of a dummy would go around without escorts? Capturing an empty ship is not worth the effort. Now if the ship has escorts, you know they're transporting something valuable enough to warrant escorts. That's the target you want to attack.

As I recall, the insurances are divided into several categories based on how dangerous the sector is. You could insure, at an increasing cost, everything but the most lethal sector, and I probably wouldn't go for the max danger without a full convoy. I'd ideally want a ship that can hold off most attacks for long enough to jump away, operating on a route that is not safe enough for majority of traders, but no suicide either. Finding the kinda balance. Oh, and the insurance doesn't net you profit, ofc. It just keeps the losses minimal. (And the whole insurance gameplay still remains to be implemented, meaning it'll probably change. A lot.)

Your last reply was based on ships loaded with cargo not empty ones, you said escorts slow you down or wouldn't be worth it because everything was insured anyways lol.

I am simply saying if this game has an insurance mechanic built in for everything then what is the point? The risk is minimal if everything can be insured. Secondly where is the mystery of the universe if everything is classified into a category? Is there nothing out there to discover? Rare materials? Rare ships? Alien tech or relics that might be invaluable? This to me is where it gets interesting, exploration vessels find things they report them to miners, salvagers etc... in their Org or sell the information to someone they go out and mine, salvage or secure whatever it is, but who is to say they are the only ones.

I mean one of the very first multiplayer videos we watched was a Retaliator being fought over by two different parties, how do you insure that? You don't, imagine that's a rare material you cant find anywhere, you cant insure that and to me that's what I am talking about, if they have a system that somehow insures those types of things then they have already screwed up lol.
 

FZD

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Your last reply was based on ships loaded with cargo not empty ones, you said escorts slow you down or wouldn't be worth it because everything was insured anyways lol.
Yes, I don't mean the ship would actually be empty, I'm just saying the pirates could perceive it as empty due to lack of escorts. The point is, you wouldn't break into the house that has no front door, you break into the house that has triple lock on the door, because THOSE people have something worth stealing.

I am simply saying if this game has an insurance mechanic built in for everything then what is the point?
I think the point would be that the traders of the convoy that got jumped by Ali Baba and the 40 hoplites wouldn't rage quit the game because they lost a billion UEC despite their numerous escorts and fancy ships. Like they'd still be losing some, profits, time, the cost of insurance, fleet operating costs, etc. But not a months and months worth of grinding.
 
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Richard Bong

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Okay, based on your wish for an armored transport that may not need an escort:

Starfarer Gemini - Military version of the Starfarer with loadouts with that in mind, fair size cargo hold and oodles of liquid transportation tanks. Once they are hooked up it could be the gas/liquid mega-tanker of choice with a cargo bay thrown in for good measure. Could. We have to wait for that to be added to the game. You'd better carry non-explosive gasses in those tanks though, as they'll be out there and exposed and very vulnerable to a stray shot or missile shrapnel. Bickity-bam, you were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off.
The Starfarer is also supposed to be capable of replacing the tanks with cargo modules.
Starfarer-Blueprint-1.jpg
 

Richard Bong

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I did do quite a bit of research on retaliator, and I kinda like the idea. But the cargo space is tiny, 2*20 SCU. I mean, if cargo worth like 10k profits per SCU gets in the game at some point, then yeah, could work.
Based on the size of the modules those numbers should be closer to the 100 CF to 130 CF range combined. Between the Andromeda and the Taurus.

The scary thing about the Retaliator, for people with bad intentions, is what modules are aboard?

It's carrying cargo, I can risk the turrets. What do you mean missile lock?

It is funny to watch a ship just go boom from a single Argos IX.
 
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