HeadClot
Grand Admiral
The 3 stages of finding out your basement has flooded again with sewage.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=214rZ1SWewg
So remember that time . . .
- Thread starter Blind Owl
- Start date
TheWoad
ADI Spai
A few questions:
1. You say " excess groundwater may be backing up the sewage line". Unlikely, but a possibility. Have any of your neighbors had this problem?
2. How much of that pipe can you expose without compromising (see: damaging) the foundation or retaining wall. If you can, then please do. That's ABS so the crack will be hard to see. Use a non LED flashlight to help you find it. Also closely inspect all the joints where the pipe is glued into the fitting. It could be that the plumber who installed it didn't do it right and missed part of the joint. No glue = no seal. It happens more than you think.
3. Have you had a plumbing inspector out to look at it? If you haven't, you might look into that.
4. how old is your house, how old is that sewage drain, how long have you lived there, other than the other time you flooded, has it given you any problems? Back grade is a possibility and a source of endless headache.
Depending on your findings, you could be replacing just that section of pipe (easy enough, and relatively cheap), or you could be replacing the entire line. Or I'm full of shit (see what I did there?) and don't know what I'm talking about. Good luck!
EDIT:
I just read that you have a septic system. I assumed you were tied in to city sewage because I'm from the Pacific Northwest so to me Canada is Vancouver. The groundwater backing up the septic system is a very real possibility. Happened to my family on a few occasions over the years.
Do you have a high water table or are you just facing some minor flooding in your area?
Do you have a 11-14 year old son who keeps flushing socks?
Is your poo really really really hard and acting like a tennis ball in a garden hose? Try oatmeal.
1. You say " excess groundwater may be backing up the sewage line". Unlikely, but a possibility. Have any of your neighbors had this problem?
2. How much of that pipe can you expose without compromising (see: damaging) the foundation or retaining wall. If you can, then please do. That's ABS so the crack will be hard to see. Use a non LED flashlight to help you find it. Also closely inspect all the joints where the pipe is glued into the fitting. It could be that the plumber who installed it didn't do it right and missed part of the joint. No glue = no seal. It happens more than you think.
3. Have you had a plumbing inspector out to look at it? If you haven't, you might look into that.
4. how old is your house, how old is that sewage drain, how long have you lived there, other than the other time you flooded, has it given you any problems? Back grade is a possibility and a source of endless headache.
Depending on your findings, you could be replacing just that section of pipe (easy enough, and relatively cheap), or you could be replacing the entire line. Or I'm full of shit (see what I did there?) and don't know what I'm talking about. Good luck!
EDIT:
I just read that you have a septic system. I assumed you were tied in to city sewage because I'm from the Pacific Northwest so to me Canada is Vancouver. The groundwater backing up the septic system is a very real possibility. Happened to my family on a few occasions over the years.
Do you have a high water table or are you just facing some minor flooding in your area?
Do you have a 11-14 year old son who keeps flushing socks?
Is your poo really really really hard and acting like a tennis ball in a garden hose? Try oatmeal.
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DorianSkyphire
Space Marshal
jesus christ man.. I'm so sorry. I hope there is nothing wrong with the foundation and it just has a weak bladder ;)
Haha, all good. Until I left Vancouver back in 2000, I thought all of Canada was Van too. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
The ground water is about the only possibility we have left at this time.
Done and done. The pipe is exposed inside the house, and nothing there. The pipe was exposed both when it originally flooded back in April and again in October when the foundation was sealed. Nothing.
That leaves the 8 to 12" that are running through the cinder-block wall. Looks like we're going in, haha.
This will be happening this week.
1955. Although the drain pipe inside is PVC, ergo not original. I do believe the septic system has been replaced as well, although I don't know when.
Both. High water table as we are built on limestone just off the St Lawrence river. And minor flooding when those rains hit. If it was just water, it wouldn't be so bad. But the fact its septic . . .ugh.
Nope, haha.
Sometimes. Hence Metapoopcil.
TheWoad
ADI Spai
Hmm this is just me spitballing here... groundwater backs up drain, drastic temperature change, thermal stress, pipe triest oexpand INSIDE cinder block, cinder block won't allow it, pipe cracks INSIDE cinder block. I do agree with the ground water theory though, that sounds like a perfect recipe. Last round of flooding happened in April and... I bet it was raining a lot then too.
OK let's say you fix this problem and no more flooding. You haven't stopped the septic overfill. So that's another thing you may look in to.
Keep us posted!
OMG! I meant burrowing owl. This is the last time I reply while cooking fajitas!
I think you're being fucked with, haha.
Yes. You're on the same track I am with your thought processes.
And yes, in April, 100+ mm of rain in a couple days. In May, when it happened again, 180 mm rain in 5 days. This time, 30+ mm of rain in a few hours, combined with a rapid warm up, contributed to melt the 2 feet of snow, plus the ground was frozen . . .so yeah, soup sandwich.
As for the overfill, well, that's something I'll have to talk to a septic company about. I understand that ground saturation can prevent the septic from diffusing into the ground properly, but I would think that it shouldn't happen this easily. I also think a check valve on the outlet line would make sense.
Owls gotta live above ground...Blind Owl is a Drow Owl.
Godspeed in getting your place back to par.
Godspeed in getting your place back to par.
TheWoad
ADI Spai
Basically the way a septic system works is all that poopy flows into a tank, then the liquid waste water flows from that tank through are a series of perforated pipes spidering out into the ground. Periodically along these pipes are boxes called leeching chambers which collect and slowly disperse waste water. This poo water slowly disperses into the ground, returning your oatmeal to nature.
If the ground is saturated as it is now, then the waste water cannot disperse and in fact you get back flow FROM the leech field (the plot of ground where the perforated pipes are buried), into the septic tank, back up into the house. Armageddon comes when that waste water and ground saturation back all the way up through toilets and bath tubs. The check valve you mentioned is installed where the drain from the house ties in to the tank. It will prevent back flow past the tank, but will create another interesting phenomenon: a flooded leech field. Your yard will be underwater and smell like raw sewage. Not a huge deal, just don't let your kids or pets play in it. If your tank isn't properly sealed you may even see toilet paper and... other stuff floating around.
I myself grew up in a VERY wet environment, so I understand your problems. Talk to a septic contractor, there are ways to manage this situation. Problem is they all cost money.
EDIT:
You may be wondering about my credentials. I'm a Steamfitter. I do this
Plumbing is basically a brother trade, and my labor union is United Association Plumbers and Steamfitters. There's a lot of overlap.
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I was cooking fajitas last night while I replied, so I didn't question it. Food is powerful...
fuck me, i love me some fajitas....
I worked hand in hand with the steam fitters while I was in the oil field, both as a well tester and as a gas plant operator. I'm very much familiar with your trade.
Kudos to you good sir.
And thank you for your input and knowledge. Most insightful.
Food IS powerful!
Powerful smelling....
When it comes out your backside....
And flows back into your basement. Ha
Just be careful of check valves as they do a great job of preventing back flow they also create a situation where upstairs flushing leads to downstairs overflowing.
The thing that keeps getting me, is the volume. If this originally happened at 4am, it really makes me doubt that the water originated from inside the house. Add into that the time of year and the fact that nothing happened between April and now, keeps me on that track. The way it's squirting out the lower portion of a previously sealed wall, makes me think there is a TON of water on the other side.
At the very least, it makes me doubt that the volume of water could be generated by a single residence. An apartment complex maybe, but not a single family home. It doesn't look like it's very deep, but when stretched out over the whole floor, it ads up to more than you think. So with that in mind, and reading over some of the posts and answers, I have a few follow up questions.
Do you get well or city/muni water? You have a septic system, but do you get your water supply from your property or local infrastructure? If you get it from a well, that eliminates a few options. Mainly it eliminates a city supply break that is saturating the ground. They tend to put off repairs as long as possible and can be leaking into the ground for a while. This can overload your septic tank and get you all screwed up.
Have your neighbors been experiencing flooding in their crawlspace or basements? You can also ask about sump pump systems. Sometimes you can get a ton of information that way.
What's the frost line? I know where I'm at, it's nowhere close to as deep as it usually is. If the ground is frozen decently though, it can eliminate the possibility of this being caused by run-off from this oddball winter.
Call around to the septic tank companies. I previously assumed you were on the city infrastructure. There shouldn't be too many of them around so it shouldn't take too much time. Ask for any records for your address. You might get lucky and be able to track down some history. You might have bought a house with a minor (not catastrophic) problem. A septic tank company might have already diagnosed the issue.
There are a few things moving forward as well. With a 1955 home, you will have a ton of cast iron in the ground. If you don't have any replacement records, it is a safe assumption that anything you haven't seen is cast. That can be a huge issue since cast iron wears a channel out of the bottom over time. It starts looking like an upside down U instead of an O. Over time, it leaches the particulates out of the soil and eventually sits on a bed of gravel. This creates a make-shift "french drain" directly into your house (or overfilling your septic system).
There's also the sealing of your basement. The contractor that sealed your basement should be insured. I would definitely track them down and speak with them. Regardless of the situation, any further leaks should have presented themselves on an unsealed side of the house. Your contractor needs to make it right. They should be insured and bonded for that very reason. It might end up in court, but you shouldn't have to pay for it. A properly sealed basement won't leak like that.
I previously thought it might be a good idea to drop in a sump pump, but things change with a septic system. A sump pump has to pump to something and it can't just go out onto the ground. It can easily overload a septic system by itself. I would consider looking into a french drain around the house. Particularly if this turns out to be ground water related. A french drain would divert the water around the house rather than allowing it to pool.
I've been watching the thread for a couple days and thinking about it as it progressed. I figured I would add my sober $0.02.
At the very least, it makes me doubt that the volume of water could be generated by a single residence. An apartment complex maybe, but not a single family home. It doesn't look like it's very deep, but when stretched out over the whole floor, it ads up to more than you think. So with that in mind, and reading over some of the posts and answers, I have a few follow up questions.
Do you get well or city/muni water? You have a septic system, but do you get your water supply from your property or local infrastructure? If you get it from a well, that eliminates a few options. Mainly it eliminates a city supply break that is saturating the ground. They tend to put off repairs as long as possible and can be leaking into the ground for a while. This can overload your septic tank and get you all screwed up.
Have your neighbors been experiencing flooding in their crawlspace or basements? You can also ask about sump pump systems. Sometimes you can get a ton of information that way.
What's the frost line? I know where I'm at, it's nowhere close to as deep as it usually is. If the ground is frozen decently though, it can eliminate the possibility of this being caused by run-off from this oddball winter.
Call around to the septic tank companies. I previously assumed you were on the city infrastructure. There shouldn't be too many of them around so it shouldn't take too much time. Ask for any records for your address. You might get lucky and be able to track down some history. You might have bought a house with a minor (not catastrophic) problem. A septic tank company might have already diagnosed the issue.
There are a few things moving forward as well. With a 1955 home, you will have a ton of cast iron in the ground. If you don't have any replacement records, it is a safe assumption that anything you haven't seen is cast. That can be a huge issue since cast iron wears a channel out of the bottom over time. It starts looking like an upside down U instead of an O. Over time, it leaches the particulates out of the soil and eventually sits on a bed of gravel. This creates a make-shift "french drain" directly into your house (or overfilling your septic system).
There's also the sealing of your basement. The contractor that sealed your basement should be insured. I would definitely track them down and speak with them. Regardless of the situation, any further leaks should have presented themselves on an unsealed side of the house. Your contractor needs to make it right. They should be insured and bonded for that very reason. It might end up in court, but you shouldn't have to pay for it. A properly sealed basement won't leak like that.
I previously thought it might be a good idea to drop in a sump pump, but things change with a septic system. A sump pump has to pump to something and it can't just go out onto the ground. It can easily overload a septic system by itself. I would consider looking into a french drain around the house. Particularly if this turns out to be ground water related. A french drain would divert the water around the house rather than allowing it to pool.
I've been watching the thread for a couple days and thinking about it as it progressed. I figured I would add my sober $0.02.
TheWoad
ADI Spai
Very true and something I thought about after I posted. If it gets fouled up, or the tank/leech field on the downstream side of it is saturated, it may not operate properly. It's one of those damned if you do/damned if you don't situatiuons, but I PERSONALLY would redo my septic system and install a QUALITY (see: not cheap) check valve. I believe the benefits outweigh the risks here. Also he's been flooded twice in one year, so something needs to be done.
That sucks, I feel for you. We're having some pluming problems. We've got a pipe somewhere in a wall leaking slowly, so we're opening up the walls and sorting things out.
This is a very important point and a difficult one to really nail down. It's not a universal point. Some things you can buy the cheap version. Some things you should look at the middle range. But some things, you want to buy the top of the line. The septic tank backflow is definitely one of those because of the catastrophic damage that can occur if it fails.
It can be difficult to sift through the misinformation. Contractors want to sell you the product that is most profitable for them (both short and long term). On the other side, places like youtube and the DIY sites give advice with absolutely zero knowlege in the field. In some cases, it is as wrong and damaging as a DIY surgeon recommending a liver transplant for a stubbed toe. That's because most of those advice giving sources have ulterior monetary motives. This is coupled with a surprising lack of experience.
Never assume the contractor has any experience with your issue. Most will say they do, but will just poke around with solutions until the problem stops. Many will choose a quick and profitable solution that "might" solve the issue but leads to additional expenses later. They rarely have your best interests in mind. You can get 6 different contractors to come out and bid a job, only to have 6 different opinions as to what the problem is. They don't troubleshoot, they just pick a solution and try it until is solves the issue. This is usually at a life changing expense to the home owner while just being another day for them.
So long story short, be careful with cheap products and always get multiple quotes for large dollar repairs.
Radegast74
Space Marshal
This is one in a series of webpages that I always found helpful in understanding septic systems...thank god I'm on sewer now.
https://extension.psu.edu/on-lot-wastewater-systems-the-basics
I've never watched any of these videos, but maybe they can be helpful...
https://extension.psu.edu/water/wastewater-management/private-septic-systems
Bottom line is, everything is underground so it is hard to detect problems...
https://extension.psu.edu/on-lot-wastewater-systems-the-basics
I've never watched any of these videos, but maybe they can be helpful...
https://extension.psu.edu/water/wastewater-management/private-septic-systems
Bottom line is, everything is underground so it is hard to detect problems...
Yeah, and where we have a pump out system for the basement, this could be even more catastrophic, as the outline line for the house runs just beneath the floor of the upper level.
Yeah, on my thinking is on the same track: that it is originating outside the house. I dunno is I described all the factors here, so I'll lay out the situation:
-2 feet of snow on the ground, and a 2-3 weeks extreme cold snap.
-Rapid warming (-25 C to +10 C in less than 48 hours)
-30+ mm of rain as that temperature climbs
-Rain and rapid warming melt off ALL of that 2 feet of snow in a matter of hours. There were literal rivers of water flowing across my property and those around me - but nowhere near the wall in question.
My best guess is this combination overloaded of surface the leech field and backed-filled the septic tank. The septic tank then back-filled the sewage line out of the house, to a point. I believe that the section of outlet pipe that sits through the cinder-block wall is cracked. When the system runs properly, we don't notice anything because the water flows freely down the pipe into the tank, maybe trickles a little into the wall, but nothing significant. But when it back-fills, that crack starts spewing into the wall.
Every time we've flooded we've had enough rain to saturate the ground. first time was 100+ mm in 2 days. Second time was 180 mm in 5 days. This time was the rain/melting snow combo in a matter of 12 hours.
City water in, septic out.
Yes. They have experienced it. But not septic, as I believe their system have been moved to the front of their homes, therefore down-slope from their homes. I do have a sump system in the house, and it is functioning. It drains into the ditch in front of our home.
No idea the frost line this year. Or what it is regularly for that matter. We haven't even lived here a year yet.
This is a brilliant idea. I'll do just this. Maybe even the city will have some info on it.
Hmmmm, good to know. I am under the impression that the system has been replaced, but I don't know when. I feel like it was 20 plus years ago. I'll check into it. I do know that the line out of the house is all PVC now, but it may switch to cast before it connects to the tank (which is really close to the house, FYI: like 5-6 feet away).
They do guarantee their work. It's the same company that did the clean-up after the original flood in April, and the same guys that came to my house on Friday when the flooding started again. The guy was dumbfounded. They documented the entire job, and took pictures of the work as it went. We will certainly be having a chat if the plumber doesn't find a crack or leak tomorrow morning.
Yeah, we have a sump. It drains to the lower side of the house into the ditch in front. So the house is on a slope, with the septic sitting behind the house on the high side: yeah, makes no sense to me either. As for the french drain, I plan on doing just that. I just need to figure out where the septic field is, so I know where I can dig. I was going to do a 2' deep trench, lay a couple lengths of Big 'O', draining out to the ditch in front of the house. Then gravel on top of the big 'O', and 8" of topsoil on top of that. That should allow the ground water to run into the trench and flow out the Big 'O' into the ditch.
Yeah, I will certainly be looking into this now as well. A lot will be pending on what the plumber finds tomorrow. But I will start calling septic companies (and the city) to see if I can find a record of this system.
Noted. And I concur. I will most certainly get in someone I trust to figure this out.
Thank you. I shall look into this.
I want to thank you all for your input up to this point. You've certainly shed some light on things I didn't know, and made me think about things I wasn't (and maybe didn't want to, haha - denial can be powerful)
Cheers lads. Keep it coming if you think of anything more. I can't thank you enough. Knowledge is power.
It takes a touch more money, but you definitely want to wrap your perforated pipe and gravel with geotextile fabric. We always used Typar (I always thought it was spelled Type R until a couple years ago...). You basically want to make a perforated pipe and gravel burrito. It allows the water into the french drain, but not the particulates. It keeps it from clogging up. In a pinch, you can just wrap the pipe, but it doesn't do as good or last as long. The water can wash dirt into your nice gravel pretty quick and then the water will get diverted away from the drain instead of into it.
We used to dig an 8-10"w x 2'd trench all around the house (about 1-2' away from the house). We would usually use an 8" power auger to help dig and break up the dirt. Then we would drop in the typar all the way down with 1' of overlap on one side. Next would go the perforated pipe. We would use the 6" corrugated drainage pipe with the holes drilled all through it and the nylon cover (looked like lady stockings). Once that was on the bottom, we would backfill with crushed rock to about 4" from grade, flop the fabric over the top to complete the burrito, and fill the rest with top soil. It was usually me and one other guy for about an 8-10 hour day depending on the house.
I had one that took almost 3 days though. The daylight basement was sitting in a hollow they carved out of the bedrock and backfilled around. So it took me over 2 days with a jackhammer to carve that french drain, bedrock the whole way. God I'm glad I don't do that shit any more...