The Community That Never Was

[Statix]

Interesting. But given EVERY single response here was from an American, I would definitely like to hear from the other side of the pond.

The law is European and the quotes I made are from European sites. It doesn't matter what side of the pond the person relaying the information to you is on, it's European law.

Is this indeed the case or was there absolutely no other recourse.

It's law, there is no recourse. I don't know how that could be made any clearer.

Moreover at the rate SC is raking it in couldn't they simply pay the VAT tax? You know, for the community.

So, Europeans are upset they have to pay VAT now like they do elsewhere... but it'd be totally cool if CIG ate the VAT and Europeans got the stuff cheaper than people in CA and TX... as well as the rest of the US where legally they are supposed to be paying tax? That's a little hypocritical don't you think?

 

[Statix]

Tax breaks. And of course there is nothing wrong with that. Every 'business' that runs a community does it.

It's not for tax breaks, they have to pay tax on EU purchases... ffs. They also have to pay taxes on CA and TX purchases. All other areas in the US are supposed to pay their own taxes.

 

[AntiSqueaker]

Can anybody actually confirm if CIG reduced prices for EU backers to "counter" VAT? I don't remember them saying anything about that.

 

[Kratok]

Can anybody actually confirm if CIG reduced prices for EU backers to "counter" VAT? I don't remember them saying anything about that.

Ehh can't find it offhand. searching anything VAT in google ends in too many results. It was discussed in reddit as I mentioned though.

http://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/2ue87j/psa_backers_outside_of_the_eurozone_get_cheaper/

 

[Overlord]

Not sure. It's possible they raised them after some non Europeans were talking about paying in euros to get cheaper ships. It was all over reddit. But at the end of the day they had the sale for over a week so that people could get ships. They were supposed to only have wave 2 ships but were kind enough to sell the carrack and the reclaimer again. It sucks for new players but older players have no excuse

So prices are higher I am inter

The law is European and the quotes I made are from European sites. It doesn't matter what side of the pond the person relaying the information to you is on, it's European law.

There is a big difference between pasting a quote and navigating the subtleties of law - if it were simply a matter copy and past there wouldn't be lawyers.

It's law, there is no recourse. I don't know how that could be made any clearer.

VAT laws only apply to European countries. This means if a US company is not established in Europe then it does not fall under the jurisdiction of VAT!

So, Europeans are upset they have to pay VAT now like they do elsewhere... but it'd be totally cool if CIG ate the VAT and Europeans got the stuff cheaper than people in CA and TX... as well as the rest of the US where legally they are supposed to be paying tax? That's a little hypocritical don't you think?

I think you got me there. There is a contradiction if indeed all states in America are subject to sales tax on digital goods and Europeans are not. Damn you Statix. lol. But it is clear that SC never needed to abide by this European law but as you rightly noted, it is hypocritical > that is if Americans are dutifully claiming their digital goods.

 

[Statix]

But it is clear that SC never needed to abide by this

Until the law changed on January 1st 2015.

 

[Overlord]

Can anybody actually confirm if CIG reduced prices for EU backers to "counter" VAT? I don't remember them saying anything about that.

I'm confused about that as well. Wouldn't SC have to charge less for everyone and not just Europeans? W

Ehh can't find it offhand. searching anything VAT in google ends in too many results. It was discussed in reddit as I mentioned though.

http://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/2ue87j/psa_backers_outside_of_the_eurozone_get_cheaper/

Good reading. And it's great that we can give our opinions on Reddit and here. That's the basis of community!

 

[Overlord]

Until the law changed on January 1st 2015.

You are incorrect. It is a European law and the United states does not have to abide by European law unless it is based in Europe - which it is not.

 

[Statix]

You are incorrect. It is a European law and the United states does not have to abide by European law unless it is based in Europe - which it is not.

And here I thought their UK and German offices were in Europe. My bad.

 

[Overlord]

It's not for tax breaks, they have to pay tax on EU purchases... ffs. They also have to pay taxes on CA and TX purchases. All other areas in the US are supposed to pay their own taxes.

If SC is eating the VAT then it is paying the taxes. Geting others to pay the taxes IS tax relief... ffs.

 

[Statix]

If SC is eating the VAT then it is paying the taxes. Geting others to pay the taxes IS tax relief... ffs.

Hide your Brits, hide your Germans, hide your French. CIG's rapin' all the Europeans out herr.

 

[Kratok]

If SC is eating the VAT then it is paying the taxes. Geting others to pay the taxes IS tax relief... ffs.

"These will be in the store through February 1st, at which point we are legally required to begin charging VAT on purchases in Europe." CIG has to start adding VAT to the sale of the ships.

They're not going to eat the tax, that's just ludicrous. It's a tax that was created by the European countries in order to generate more revenue for the country. Also, remember that we are crowd funding this game, and it is our dollars that are going into the development. I for one do not want my funds going towards paying for taxes to governments that I do not even belong to, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. They had the last ditch sale before they have to charge the VAT, that should be good enough.

 

[Overlord]

And here I thought their UK and German offices were in Europe. My bad.

You are blurring the edges. First you say companies must pay VAT but now you are agreeing that it is owing to offices in England and Germany. And last I checked, CIG has not opened offices in Germany yet you're claiming something that does not exist. Also laws are different in England as opposed to other European countries. In fact England, although a member, staunchly maintains its own laws and isn't even a member of the Shengen Area agreement. They also maintain their currency as opposed to the Euro so I would be interested to know if the exact same laws apply regarding VAT; this is why I would love to hear input from our good Brits. Personally I really don't think laws are as simple as you think they are; sometimes there are alternatives and/or legal loopholes - just ask any lawyer. So would an office in England by feasible without joining VAT? Or is it that SC really wanted to set up shop in Germany thus giving it no other legal recourse? Personally if Germany was the sole reason for VAT I would have to say it was a bad call. But at least we can agree on both European and Americans paying taxes equally - that is a no brainer.

 

[Kratok]

You are blurring the edges. First you say companies must pay VAT but now you are agreeing that it is owing to offices in England and Germany. And last I checked, CIG has not opened offices in Germany yet you're claiming something that does not exist. Also laws are different in England as opposed to other European countries. In fact England, although a member, staunchly maintains its own laws and isn't even a member of the Shengen Area agreement. They also maintain their currency as opposed to the Euro so I would be interested to know if the exact same laws apply regarding VAT; this is why I would love to hear input from our good Brits. Personally I really don't think laws are as simple as you think they are; sometimes there are alternatives and/or legal loopholes - just ask any lawyer. So would an office in England by feasible without joining VAT? Or is it that SC really wanted to set up shop in Germany thus giving it no other legal recourse? Personally if Germany was the sole reason for VAT I would have to say it was a bad call. But at least we can agree on both European and Americans paying taxes equally - that is a no brainer.

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/how_vat_works/index_en.htm

That will explain VAT clearly enough. You don't need to pay taxes in on pixel spaceships in other parts of the world. You do if your country is part of the European countries that have agreed on charging VAT. No CIG is not going to pay for their countries taxes. Wall mart is not going to pay the GST on your xbox.

 

[Overlord]

"These will be in the store through February 1st, at which point we are legally required to begin charging VAT on purchases in Europe." CIG has to start adding VAT to the sale of the ships.

They're not going to eat the tax, that's just ludicrous. It's a tax that was created by the European countries in order to generate more revenue for the country. Also, remember that we are crowd funding this game, and it is our dollars that are going into the development. I for one do not want my funds going towards paying for taxes to governments that I do not even belong to, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. They had the last ditch sale before they have to charge the VAT, that should be good enough.

I think it really is, as Statix rightly pointed out, a matter of being fair. If US citizens are paying for their digital goods then why shouldn't everyone else? But even this argument is flawed; isn't the country or state that charges the tax responsible for the situation? Why should other people feel slighted if they are bilked by their own governments and offended when other countries don't follow suit? If say Hungry didn't have to pay taxes I wouldn't feel bitter - I'd be happy for them! At any rate, VAT charges are for those residing outside the US and you do not pay them.

 

[Kratok]

I think it really is, as Statix rightly pointed out, a matter of being fair. If US citizens are paying for their digital goods then why shouldn't everyone else?

They're not, you don't pay taxes on digital spaceships. It's considering funding a game, therefore you don't pay for it. VAT doesn't work that way.

The reason for the charge comes from their UK base that they opened up.

"Star Citizen developer Cloud Imperium Games has elected to open a European publishing arm based in the UK.
In some ways this is good news, because it will allow for local customer support, but it does also mean that purchases made by European customers will be subject to local laws – and taxes. Yes, the VAT is coming."

Chris also spent a good portion of last month in Germany, also working on opening a team there.

But even this argument is flawed; isn't the country or state that charges the tax responsible for the situation? Why should other people feel slighted if they are bilked by their own governments and offended when other countries don't follow suit? If say Hungry didn't have to pay taxes I wouldn't feel bitter - I'd be happy for them!

Not entirely following what you were saying, so I don't want to misquote you.

At any rate, VAT charges are for those residing outside the US and you do not pay them.

Ah that's the interesting part. No being Canadian I don't pay the taxes on the funds I put into the game. But by the same token CIG gets all my money when I do, since its crowd funded and the game hasn't technically launched yet CIG pretty much can use all the money for the game.

Now lets pretend VAT was in from the beginning and all the backers were European. SC has no longer generated 72 million but has instead only generated 58 million as it has eaten the 20% VAT so the consumers wouldn't have to pay it. Doesn't sound as fun right?

Does it suck that the Europeans have to pay VAT? Fuck yeah it does, it means that they'll be less inclined to further fund SC. Do I think that CIG should eat the tax? No, but that's my opinion based on the arguments I laid out.

 

[Overlord]

"These will be in the store through February 1st, at which point we are legally required to begin charging VAT on purchases in Europe." CIG has to start adding VAT to the sale of the ships.

They're not going to eat the tax, that's just ludicrous. It's a tax that was created by the European countries in order to generate more revenue for the country. Also, remember that we are crowd funding this game, and it is our dollars that are going into the development. I for one do not want my funds going towards paying for taxes to governments that I do not even belong to, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. They had the last ditch sale before they have to charge the VAT, that should be good enough.

I am not so sure. As I have stated, US companies are not subject to European laws unless they are based in the EU. And after hearing some comments in Mumble I have to wonder whether having offices in England actually fell under European VAT jurisdiction. If this was cleared up by a reputable source then that would definitely put an end to this exchange. But it was in interesting exchange nonetheless. To be honest a little refreshing from beer jokes > gets a little old after a while.

 

[Kratok]

I am not so sure. As I have stated, US companies are not subject to European laws unless they are based in the EU. And after hearing some comments in Mumble I have to wonder whether having offices in England actually fell under European VAT jurisdiction. If this was cleared up by a reputable source then that would definitely put an end to this exchange. But it was in interesting exchange nonetheless. To be honest a little refreshing from beer jokes > gets a little old after a while.

http://www.vg247.com/2015/01/20/star-citizen-fans-buy-in-now-before-vat-applies/

This is one of the articles that comments on it. While the UK is independent on a plethora of regulations, it is in fact part of the VAT agreement.

 

[Dygon]

315p before VAT was added: 60 euro
315p after VAT was added: 62 euro

knowing that the VAT percentage is 21%, SC is definitely picking up a lot of the VAT charges. This entire discussion is very simple. VAT is mandatory for any company with a branch in Europe, which SC has done. SC however is however compensating for that added VAT, so now EU customers are still paying the same as American customers. SC might be making less money from it, but that shouldn't matter to you, the end user. The fact is, everybody is paying he same.

 

[Overlord]

They're not, you don't pay taxes on digital spaceships. It's considering funding a game, therefore you don't pay for it. VAT doesn't work that way.

The reason for the charge comes from their UK base that they opened up.

"Star Citizen developer Cloud Imperium Games has elected to open a European publishing arm based in the UK.
In some ways this is good news, because it will allow for local customer support, but it does also mean that purchases made by European customers will be subject to local laws – and taxes. Yes, the VAT is coming."

Chris also spent a good portion of last month in Germany, also working on opening a team there.



Not entirely following what you were saying, so I don't want to misquote you.

No problem, I was referring to a previous argument by a fellow TESTie.



Ah that's the interesting part. No being Canadian I don't pay the taxes on the funds I put into the game. But by the same token CIG gets all my money when I do, since its crowd funded and the game hasn't technically launched yet CIG pretty much can use all the money for the game.

Now lets pretend VAT was in from the beginning and all the backers were European. SC has no longer generated 72 million but has instead only generated 58 million as it has eaten the 20% VAT so the consumers wouldn't have to pay it. Doesn't sound as fun right?

Does it suck that the Europeans have to pay VAT? Fuck yeah it does, it means that they'll be less inclined to further fund SC. Do I think that CIG should eat the tax? No, but that's my opinion based on the arguments I laid out.

Interesting - the timing and all regarding UK and future German office. Laws changed? Perhaps as far as England's existing offices; definitely because of future plans for Germany. This is the crux of the argument. Again, US companies are not subject to VAT if they are not based in Europe. My question is does Britain fall under the same VAT laws as the rest of Europe? They do have different laws despite being a part of the European Union. In fact there has been a lot of legal tug of war between Britain and the EU. Would love to find this out regarding VAT.

As for the 58 million instead of 72? Not bad considering the original goal was $4 million, don't you think? Perhaps we are all getting a little greedy. We have gotten so use to seeing the numbers shooting up we have begun to take it for granted. At least that's how I see it.