The future of CIG's funding...

Han Burgundy

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I think what we watched last weekend wasn't really aimed at us. It was aimed at Chris Roberts' REAL customers; Game developers. Think about it. You can't expect to sell space ships forever, so how are they going to keep the development of Star Citizen alive? StarEngine. It is what this whole project has been about since the CryTek lawsuit. I believe they fought for full ownership of the engine so that they would be able to sell it to developers around the world. StarEngine will become the next UnrealEngine and Star Citizen will become the testbed to show off all of their new tech. That means that new technology will continue to develop and be implemented into the PU for years and years to come if they do it right. I really hope I'm right, because that would set us up in the verse for decades. (How long did WOW exist for again?)
 

NaffNaffBobFace

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All the innovation will be prime licensable material, even Minecraft can't offer full global worlds without suffering and stuttering after a few thousand chunks load in and it's the nearest comparison with no-to-low loading screens and global maps (the trip to The End has a brief loading screen).

Only a crowdfunder could have pushed the tech forward so far, imagine pitching all these physics and advances to publishers and asking for $500 million to make it. Non-starter: I believe Roberts tried it although not to the extent the crowdfunder has allowed.
 

Lorddarthvik

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I think what we watched last weekend wasn't really aimed at us. It was aimed at Chris Roberts' REAL customers; Game developers. Think about it. You can't expect to sell space ships forever, so how are they going to keep the development of Star Citizen alive? StarEngine. It is what this whole project has been about since the CryTek lawsuit. I believe they fought for full ownership of the engine so that they would be able to sell it to developers around the world. StarEngine will become the next UnrealEngine and Star Citizen will become the testbed to show off all of their new tech. That means that new technology will continue to develop and be implemented into the PU for years and years to come if they do it right. I really hope I'm right, because that would set us up in the verse for decades. (How long did WOW exist for again?)
Yep, I presumed this has been the plan from the moment they had to basically rebuild their own engine from the ground up when Cryengines limitations were reached. So the StarEngine demo did make a lot more sense as an ad for the engine itself than a showpiece for us backers.

WoW is still going pretty strong actually. It's been what, over 15 years now I think? They keep milking that cow because the base is there to build upon, and the following is still there to use and abuse. The latest expansion was actually quiet good imo, I enjoyed it and if I had the time I'd still be paying the monthly fee.
I hope that the years and years of trial by fire they put us through made the community into the same kind of strong relentless following, so they will have the chance to expand upon SC for many years to come, even after it launches in 2031.
 

Talonsbane

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I think what we watched last weekend wasn't really aimed at us. It was aimed at Chris Roberts' REAL customers; Game developers. Think about it. You can't expect to sell space ships forever, so how are they going to keep the development of Star Citizen alive? StarEngine. It is what this whole project has been about since the CryTek lawsuit. I believe they fought for full ownership of the engine so that they would be able to sell it to developers around the world. StarEngine will become the next UnrealEngine and Star Citizen will become the testbed to show off all of their new tech. That means that new technology will continue to develop and be implemented into the PU for years and years to come if they do it right. I really hope I'm right, because that would set us up in the verse for decades. (How long did WOW exist for again?)
I was saying this Sat night after I finished watching day 1 of this years CitizenCon event. For the record, WoW is still running & has been for about 20 years (launched November 23, 2004) as an MMORPG.
 

Thalstan

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It all comes down to the terms of the contract. Maybe they can sell their plugin components, maybe it can’t be sold. That said, much of what they are offering is already possible elsewhere. It might be very true, but if the contract with Amazon is similar to CT, then even if the innovations don’t belong to Amazon, they might not be marketable by CIG either, or at least without a huge cut you to Amazon
 

Bambooza

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All the innovation will be prime licensable material, even Minecraft can't offer full global worlds without suffering and stuttering after a few thousand chunks load in and it's the nearest comparison with no-to-low loading screens and global maps (the trip to The End has a brief loading screen).

Only a crowdfunder could have pushed the tech forward so far, imagine pitching all these physics and advances to publishers and asking for $500 million to make it. Non-starter: I believe Roberts tried it although not to the extent the crowdfunder has allowed.

Ya um Unreal 5 has accomplished this already along with not requiring lods which significantly reduces the popping. I have to wonder if there is not some performance improvement in keeping the higher detail image map in video memory instead of having to load in new image maps and swap them out
 
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Talonsbane

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It all comes down to the terms of the contract. Maybe they can sell their plugin components, maybe it can’t be sold. That said, much of what they are offering is already possible elsewhere. It might be very true, but if the contract with Amazon is similar to CT, then even if the innovations don’t belong to Amazon, they might not be marketable by CIG either, or at least without a huge cut you to Amazon
Unless their 1st customer is to Amazon Gaming for them to do with for their other games in development. A long time profitable relationship with a global power house in sales would provide some appreciated stability, based on the terms of the contract.
 

NaffNaffBobFace

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Ya um Unreal 5 has accomplished this already along with not requiring lods which significantly reduces the popping. I have to wonder if there is not some performance improvement in keeping the higher detail image map in video memory instead of having to load in new image maps and swap them out
Unreal has been able to do real scale star-system sized maps with multiple planet and moon sized maps where you can see it you can reach it, no loading screens and vehicle interiors which you can move around in while the craft is in transit and even jump between while two craft are in motion?

Shit, why didn't they go with Unreal in 2012?
 
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BUTUZ

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Unless they go back on their promise to stop selling ships, of course the future is licensing. I've always said this but no one really seemed to care. Every single part of star engine is orders of magnitude better than the best everyone else can do.

You've got literally every other game in the world taking 5 years to create like 5 x 64km square maps for their next v6 of whatever battle game in a field it is - why not just go to CIG and license one procedurally generated planet for v7 of the game? That's 5 years of work cut down to one month plus a big credit card payment.

People say about unreal engine this and that etc and yeh it's great but you've still gotta take unreal engine and make a whole game from scratch with it which is again gonna take 5years. With star engine I am sure you will be able to license each the actual creation tool behind it - struggling to make good character creation in your futuristic bladerunner style third person shooter? Take 1 Star hair licence 1 star makeup license and 1 x inclusive non offensive star body license and hey presto you got your game finished in like a month.

The 500 mil we've given them is gonna pale into insignificance over the next 5 years I recon!
 

Bambooza

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Unreal has been able to do real scale star-system sized maps with multiple planet and moon sized maps where you can see it you can reach it, no loading screens and vehicle interiors which you can move around in while the craft is in transit and even jump between while two craft are in motion?

Shit, why didn't they go with Unreal in 2012?
That's the thing in 2012 the cry engine was a beautiful graphic engine and it wasn't until 2014 that unreal 4 came out with not only an amazing graphics engine but all the tools and source code to allow anyone to use it to make their game.

With unreal5 released in 2022 do we see its capabilities outpace a lot of the fidelity of what cig has done with the star engine ( formally lumberyard formally cry engine)

This is the cost of rolling your own engine like the dated looks and billion loading screens of starfield.

In 2012 the cry engine was a valid choice for the game concept and release schedual. But with the scope creep and time delay its become more a sunken cost fallacy and while I am not sure switching out of the engine now would be worth it the game engine is still not as good as other offering from Unreal and until recently unity ( unity has really angered their community with changes to the price model).

If you want to learn more

Asynchronous asset loading. Ie object container streaming

Nanite mesh automation. Removes lods and the graphic poping in theory.

Procedural content generation
. CIG uses this to create the planets and populate the biomes.

I am not saying cig has not done incredible things with the cry engine I'm just saying the amount of work they have put into it is not putting the engine ahead of anyone and they are not keeping up with the current leader and the cutting edge will continue to pull away as the years drag on. Mostly this is due to the size and skills of the development staff that unreal current employs dedicated towards making their engine and the tools to use it.
 

Lorddarthvik

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That's the thing in 2012 the cry engine was a beautiful graphic engine and it wasn't until 2014 that unreal 4 came out with not only an amazing graphics engine but all the tools and source code to allow anyone to use it to make their game.

With unreal5 released in 2022 do we see its capabilities outpace a lot of the fidelity of what cig has done with the star engine ( formally lumberyard formally cry engine)

This is the cost of rolling your own engine like the dated looks and billion loading screens of starfield.

In 2012 the cry engine was a valid choice for the game concept and release schedual. But with the scope creep and time delay its become more a sunken cost fallacy and while I am not sure switching out of the engine now would be worth it the game engine is still not as good as other offering from Unreal and until recently unity ( unity has really angered their community with changes to the price model).

If you want to learn more

Asynchronous asset loading. Ie object container streaming

Nanite mesh automation. Removes lods and the graphic poping in theory.
Procedural content generation. CIG uses this to create the planets and populate the biomes.

I am not saying cig has not done incredible things with the cry engine I'm just saying the amount of work they have put into it is not putting the engine ahead of anyone and they are not keeping up with the current leader and the cutting edge will continue to pull away as the years drag on. Mostly this is due to the size and skills of the development staff that unreal current employs dedicated towards making their engine and the tools to use it.
Ya know ppl have been raving about UE5 for ages.. probably because none of em never tried to actually do something with it.

I think the selling point in favor of StarEngine is that they are trying to provide a fully working world simulation with the tools to harness it's potential, right out of the box, with MMO level networking and automated optimization built in. UE5 is barebones when it comes to anything else than your most basic last-gen level-based FPS, and even that is sometimes lacking out of the box. From experience, our dev dude spent a week just trying to make an automated character editor switch out eyelashes on a character when glasses were equipped (og lashes were long and clipping through). So yes you still gotta put in the work with UE5 just like with any other engine. To me it looks like CiG is trying to make something where you have an easier time getting everything working as you imagined it would work.
On the visuals front, CIG has a ways to go still, but if they manage to get raytracing and especially that GI solution stable and cheap enough to run in more complex environments, it's already a great selling point. Almost all games I've played so far with their tacked-on raytracing have reflection and/or shadows traced, but no true light bounce with color bleed like CiG does. UE5 can do it, kinda, but I haven't seen anything take real advantage of it yet. Then there's all the volumetric effects, while almost everyone is still stuck on cheap looking screen space solutions, like UE5. Also the physics stuff like the destruction tech, the hair sim, cloth sim... all built in and supposedly working great out of the box. It's an enticing sales pitch for sure.
Now the downside of their all-encompassin turn-key solution is that it might be less flexible than a more barebones solution, but until we get to see someone else trying to create a game on this engine, we won't know.
Oh and nanite with no lods? Yeah hahahaha. No. It fucks up just like any other automated lod system. Yes we tested this, no it's not that easy as jsut chucking ina complex model and letting UE handle it all. Is it better on popping in issues? Yeah, it helps, but looking at our pre-rendered visuals, it ain't perfect either.
I've seen games with perfectly good loding before on other engines, it's not unique, but it sure makes things easier and faster to work on.
On the other hand, CiG has elevators that can kill you. I have never had that in any other game engine! hahaha
And let's not forget that they are using their own solutions of audio, face tracking and so on. Loads of neat features if you aim for let's say, making an MMO.
Now would I choose SE over something else for a game like ForzaMotorsport 19 or Worms 11 or Jump King 3? no, there's probably better options out there for such cases.

Most importantly, if they went with UE5, we might be further along in development, but would they have an engine to sell?
I doubt it, cos they would be relying way more on the built in engine features, thus being unable to call it their own and sell it as such, and I don't think Epic would be willing to sell it to them.


@Thalstan
They fully bought out cryengine (and the rest is their own code as far as I know), this was established around or after the lawsuits, they have no obligations towards anyone else when it comes to licencing. They can sell licences however they like.

I think CiG have the potential to sell this as a whole package. This has been one of their goals from the start, it was never a secret, they even talked about it in a few words here and there.
 

Aramsolari

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Ya know ppl have been raving about UE5 for ages.. probably because none of em never tried to actually do something with it.

I think the selling point in favor of StarEngine is that they are trying to provide a fully working world simulation with the tools to harness it's potential, right out of the box, with MMO level networking and automated optimization built in. UE5 is barebones when it comes to anything else than your most basic last-gen level-based FPS, and even that is sometimes lacking out of the box. From experience, our dev dude spent a week just trying to make an automated character editor switch out eyelashes on a character when glasses were equipped (og lashes were long and clipping through). So yes you still gotta put in the work with UE5 just like with any other engine. To me it looks like CiG is trying to make something where you have an easier time getting everything working as you imagined it would work.
On the visuals front, CIG has a ways to go still, but if they manage to get raytracing and especially that GI solution stable and cheap enough to run in more complex environments, it's already a great selling point. Almost all games I've played so far with their tacked-on raytracing have reflection and/or shadows traced, but no true light bounce with color bleed like CiG does. UE5 can do it, kinda, but I haven't seen anything take real advantage of it yet. Then there's all the volumetric effects, while almost everyone is still stuck on cheap looking screen space solutions, like UE5. Also the physics stuff like the destruction tech, the hair sim, cloth sim... all built in and supposedly working great out of the box. It's an enticing sales pitch for sure.
Now the downside of their all-encompassin turn-key solution is that it might be less flexible than a more barebones solution, but until we get to see someone else trying to create a game on this engine, we won't know.
Oh and nanite with no lods? Yeah hahahaha. No. It fucks up just like any other automated lod system. Yes we tested this, no it's not that easy as jsut chucking ina complex model and letting UE handle it all. Is it better on popping in issues? Yeah, it helps, but looking at our pre-rendered visuals, it ain't perfect either.
I've seen games with perfectly good loding before on other engines, it's not unique, but it sure makes things easier and faster to work on.
On the other hand, CiG has elevators that can kill you. I have never had that in any other game engine! hahaha
And let's not forget that they are using their own solutions of audio, face tracking and so on. Loads of neat features if you aim for let's say, making an MMO.
Now would I choose SE over something else for a game like ForzaMotorsport 19 or Worms 11 or Jump King 3? no, there's probably better options out there for such cases.

Most importantly, if they went with UE5, we might be further along in development, but would they have an engine to sell?
I doubt it, cos they would be relying way more on the built in engine features, thus being unable to call it their own and sell it as such, and I don't think Epic would be willing to sell it to them.


@Thalstan
They fully bought out cryengine (and the rest is their own code as far as I know), this was established around or after the lawsuits, they have no obligations towards anyone else when it comes to licencing. They can sell licences however they like.

I think CiG have the potential to sell this as a whole package. This has been one of their goals from the start, it was never a secret, they even talked about it in a few words here and there.
I don't technogooblely goose but that sounds legit. :glorious:
 

NaffNaffBobFace

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That's the thing in 2012 the cry engine was a beautiful graphic engine and it wasn't until 2014 that unreal 4 came out with not only an amazing graphics engine but all the tools and source code to allow anyone to use it to make their game.

With unreal5 released in 2022 do we see its capabilities outpace a lot of the fidelity of what cig has done with the star engine ( formally lumberyard formally cry engine)

This is the cost of rolling your own engine like the dated looks and billion loading screens of starfield.

In 2012 the cry engine was a valid choice for the game concept and release schedual. But with the scope creep and time delay its become more a sunken cost fallacy and while I am not sure switching out of the engine now would be worth it the game engine is still not as good as other offering from Unreal and until recently unity ( unity has really angered their community with changes to the price model).

If you want to learn more

Asynchronous asset loading. Ie object container streaming

Nanite mesh automation. Removes lods and the graphic poping in theory.
Procedural content generation. CIG uses this to create the planets and populate the biomes.

I am not saying cig has not done incredible things with the cry engine I'm just saying the amount of work they have put into it is not putting the engine ahead of anyone and they are not keeping up with the current leader and the cutting edge will continue to pull away as the years drag on. Mostly this is due to the size and skills of the development staff that unreal current employs dedicated towards making their engine and the tools to use it.
So just what happened with Unity recently? All I know if they tried to screw the nuts off legacy licence holders with a download fee or something?
 
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Bambooza

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So just what happened with Unity recently? All I know if they tried to screw the nuts off legacy licence holders with a download fee or something?
It was not download fee but a runtime fee meaning every install studio houses would need to pay for not just every copy sold. Unity has since walked most of the fee charge back but the fallout is still rippling through the community.

Ya know ppl have been raving about UE5 for ages.. probably because none of em never tried to actually do something with it.



I think CiG have the potential to sell this as a whole package. This has been one of their goals from the start, it was never a secret, they even talked about it in a few words here and there.
My experience with Unreal was after getting frustrated with the limited capabilities offered in the scripting Unity provided. My happy place is in the lines of code and while I do not have as much time anymore to tinker with providing blue prints, I will conceded on the designer and artistic experience in engine as it's far from my skill set.

As for the technical aspect some of their accomplishments are very situational specific like procedurally generated planets while others like server meshing while more beneficial to a few more studios most are not looking to create a one vers mmo as it's generally more profitable and easy for single player or small map multi-player like what we see in cod/battlefield/fortnight.

I imagine as vr continues to grow there will be a resurgence in mmo like games but the price point of the console and glasses has to come down.
 

RoosterRage

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That's the thing in 2012 the cry engine was a beautiful graphic engine and it wasn't until 2014 that unreal 4 came out with not only an amazing graphics engine but all the tools and source code to allow anyone to use it to make their game.

With unreal5 released in 2022 do we see its capabilities outpace a lot of the fidelity of what cig has done with the star engine ( formally lumberyard formally cry engine)

This is the cost of rolling your own engine like the dated looks and billion loading screens of starfield.

In 2012 the cry engine was a valid choice for the game concept and release schedual. But with the scope creep and time delay its become more a sunken cost fallacy and while I am not sure switching out of the engine now would be worth it the game engine is still not as good as other offering from Unreal and until recently unity ( unity has really angered their community with changes to the price model).

If you want to learn more

Asynchronous asset loading. Ie object container streaming

Nanite mesh automation. Removes lods and the graphic poping in theory.
Procedural content generation. CIG uses this to create the planets and populate the biomes.

I am not saying cig has not done incredible things with the cry engine I'm just saying the amount of work they have put into it is not putting the engine ahead of anyone and they are not keeping up with the current leader and the cutting edge will continue to pull away as the years drag on. Mostly this is due to the size and skills of the development staff that unreal current employs dedicated towards making their engine and the tools to use it.
Thing is CR addressed this very topic and he was very clear that no matter what engine they chose they would have to heavily modify it as there are none using 64-bit precision which is required along with other required features unreal is lacking. He said just because an engine has one or two good features doesn't make it viable for every game being made.
 

Lorddarthvik

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It was not download fee but a runtime fee meaning every install studio houses would need to pay for not just every copy sold. Unity has since walked most of the fee charge back but the fallout is still rippling through the community.



My experience with Unreal was after getting frustrated with the limited capabilities offered in the scripting Unity provided. My happy place is in the lines of code and while I do not have as much time anymore to tinker with providing blue prints, I will conceded on the designer and artistic experience in engine as it's far from my skill set.

As for the technical aspect some of their accomplishments are very situational specific like procedurally generated planets while others like server meshing while more beneficial to a few more studios most are not looking to create a one vers mmo as it's generally more profitable and easy for single player or small map multi-player like what we see in cod/battlefield/fortnight.

I imagine as vr continues to grow there will be a resurgence in mmo like games but the price point of the console and glasses has to come down.
Yep their solution is rather specific in it's appeal. Maybe down the line they will create more simple/focused toolsets to make it easier for the kind of generic games like shooters, but I have a feeling CR's dream is that this engine with all it can do, and with SC as it's playable showcase, will shift the industry away from the current trend of garbage yearly titles like CoD and BF. Which in turn will create a wider market for the engine. I don't see a reason for this change to happen really with all the usual cashcows still making billions in sales, but time will tell.
 

Bambooza

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Yep their solution is rather specific in it's appeal. Maybe down the line they will create more simple/focused toolsets to make it easier for the kind of generic games like shooters, but I have a feeling CR's dream is that this engine with all it can do, and with SC as it's playable showcase, will shift the industry away from the current trend of garbage yearly titles like CoD and BF. Which in turn will create a wider market for the engine. I don't see a reason for this change to happen really with all the usual cashcows still making billions in sales, but time will tell.

I'd be happy to just see them continue to add content and systems to the public as well as new episodes to sq42. Even if the engine is only ever used by cig its honestly meets their needs currently even if it's upkeep will be costly.

While player driven content will be huge for the longevity of the game it still needs gameplay loops and story element frameworks to keep players engaged as it's not a quick match.
 
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