The Ignoble Death of Indiana Jones

Shadow Reaper

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Maybe you’re not old enough to care, but many of us grew up not only on Star Wars, but Indy. We’re sad to see it debased rather than simply laid to rest in honor. For those too young to remember, everyone said the franchise had run its course and each addition would necessarily suck when the second film came out, so everyone was authentically surprised when Last Crusade proved it still had what it takes to fully enthrall. Film four kinda sucked and everyone simply nodded because they knew Spielberg had to sneak aliens in. Ah well.

But this last. . .what did we think was going to happen here?
View: https://youtu.be/asDEyW7WzOU
 

Lorddarthvik

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Maybe you’re not old enough to care, but many of us grew up not only on Star Wars, but Indy. We’re sad to see it debased rather than simply laid to rest in honor. For those too young to remember, everyone said the franchise had run its course and each addition would necessarily suck when the second film came out, so everyone was authentically surprised when Last Crusade proved it still had what it takes to fully enthrall. Film four kinda sucked and everyone simply nodded because they knew Spielberg had to sneak aliens in. Ah well.

But this last. . .what did we think was going to happen here?
View: https://youtu.be/asDEyW7WzOU
Truth.

Ya know, after what they did with the SW sequels and shows, and then all the Marvel movies after Endgame... I just couldn't even care at this point. They turned the audience into the worst possible thing, totally uninterested. Even having a huge audience of haters is better then having none, but no matter whom I talk to, everyone is like yeah, they don't gonna watch it cos what's the point. Most of my friends didn't even know this was coming out lol
As a lifelong Indy fan, I might sit through it with the wife (she is a huge HFord fan, or at least was until they killed him in SW), but most certainly won't be paying a cent for it.
 

NaffNaffBobFace

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I once thought the same of Terminator.

One was good, two was amazing and then a procession of not-so-goods came along which while not dire were not able to hold a candle to the first two.

I had given up on thinking there was ever going to be another worthy addition to the same setting and story retold over and over...

...an then came along Dark Fate.

As an example it shows there is always hope and the fork in the road doesn't always have to take the simpler less satisfying path... but it is rare and although that potential is always there it is rarely achieved even when the intention is to take the tough track.

Never give up hope... but don't be surprised if it doesn't happen. As said in the video you posted, when the publisher interferes, the results will never have any other vision than grasping around desperately trying to find a magic way to get the most money out of an investment rather than trying to just make a story. I believe Dark Fate had a clear direction because part of Camerons agreement to take the tiller was that they refused to allow interference and their story, a good one, was the result... Focus groups be damned, the one way to make sure no one gets what they want is to ask a group what they want. The reason we have Independent smash-hits is because independents are allowed to hit their audience and sometimes, just sometimes, that ends up being all of us.




That said, I have not watched it yet. I don't know. I can guess where their intention may have been but I won't know if they hit the target or if something went wrong or if it's just misinterpretation from the review base... Then again I have not seen New Dune yet so that shows you how much I get out. The reviewers are unlikely to have called it wrong, but then look at The Big Labowski...

I will say: If people enjoy something and it doesn't do actual harm anyone I'm happy for the young'uns who didn't have the upbringing we did to lap up they dodads and whizz bangs. Some things, like fashionable underpants, just aren't made for us oldies any more, because no one making fashionable underpants thinks we'll be showing them to anyone and I for one am not spending $25 on grundies.
 
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Daak Gelrin

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Just like Star Wars ended with RoTJ for me, Indiana Jones ended with the Last Crusade.

Modern Hollywood/Disney does not have enough talent to write a good story.
They rely on nostalgia to bring viewers to the crap product, and use the product as some sort of soap box to tell everyone how bad they are.
Existing franchises are hostages being executed for shock value it seems.

If it's new it's crap, and it's not even steaming.
 

Ltmifune

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To me it feels like most movies and TV shows coming out in the last 4-5 years have been a sour experience. The new Ray Star Wars depressing, everything after the MCU's Endgame sad and awful, the avatar, Indy, my list can go on and on. It's getting hard to be excited for any new movie because of the standard generic troupe of this film has to include the checklist of marginalized people or ideologies, explain to the viewer how "these" people are all bad b/c of XYZ that has nothing to do with the movie. The new Guardians is a prime example of how I feel about media today, the first two films, I pre-bought my tickets, and was an hour early to get the good seats. This new installment I am hesitant to see it because I am afraid it will ruin how I feel about the franchise.

I find myself returning to the classics because a lot of the new stuff is lacking in entertainment.

Also, if you haven't see it The Unbearable Weight of Massive Talent with Nicholas Cage it is a wholesome and entertaining movie. OHHHhhh Nick Cage has some how made his way back into my heart and I am addicted to the movies he is putting out. Some of them are terrible... Terrible. . . TERRIBLE!!! movies but they are also extremely entertaining.
 

Shadow Reaper

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I thought the first two seasons of Mando were good, and I still have high hopes for Asoka. The stuff Dave Filoni and Jon Favreau have done seem to me consistently good, and the stuff Kathleen Kennedy has done seems consistently bad. Despite I would in a pinch blame all the crap at Disney on a generation or two of drones writing through insane values, I do think we should be more specific. Kathleen Kennedy is to blame for the abortion that has happened at Star Wars, the MC Universe, etc., starting and being epitomized by the humiliation of Luke Skywalker. The exception seemed to be Mando season 3 until word broke that Dave and Jon were forced to rewrite it last minute to accommodate Kennedy's crap there as well (They were forced to remove Gina Carano's character from a huge place in season 3 at the last minute, because Kennedy fired Carano from all Star Wars for purely bigoted ideological reasons. Now, Cara Dune is back and Rangers may be back too.) So I am still holding out for decent stories to come from Disney.

I personally think the Asoka Tano story is one of the best to come from Disney. I have no problem with strong female leads and so long as I'm not being force fed immoral woke crap I'm cool with Disney adapting to some extent. I even understand that they want to try to pass the Indy franchise success on to a new person, and I can accept that they want a female lead. (They did try first with Shai LeBeouf and if that actor had not made some truly insane remarks, they might have managed in some very small degree to pass that franchise on. Had they skipped the aliens, and LeBeouf kept his trap shut, a second movie with Harrison Ford passing the batton to LeBeouf might have worked, and we'd have that to complain about instead of this.)

I think though, the attempt to replace the subject of the franchise will fail, not because postmodernism and the woke mind virus are both in rapid retreat (which they are--Bud Light, Target, the Dodgers), but because Indy is not 007. Indy is Harrison Ford and there is no man nor woman who can take that actor's place. Fact is, the story for Romancing the Stone was in many ways as good as Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Arc, and the acting was as good, and the WOW factor was there, and all manner of other measures would tell you these were equally great stories and ideas, and perhaps even films, but only Indy had the Magic Factor--Harrison Ford. Some things you can't replace. Even today I invite you to go rewatch Romancing the Stone and see how excellent it was, yet no franchise. That's the fault of Ford factor.

View: https://youtu.be/6ONmsyF5D0k


I am staying in support of Filoni and Favreau until they dig their own grave. I think Disney still has a chance to do good Star Wars.



*BTW, you too can Force Leap into startships. Take the Enhance force feature in Star Wars Force and Destiny.
View: https://youtu.be/LpXNOz-hbgA
 
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Brictoria

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An interesting theory in the video is that Disney (Or at least Bob Iger) is happy for the new Indiana jones movie to be bad, as it would help him to clear out Disney employees who are holding back the company.
 
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Shadow Reaper

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There's a lot here. I would just quibble with the idea that Iger may want Indy V to fail. I find that exceedingly unlikely.

Kennedy has been involved with gender ideology, radical feminist intersectionality and basic woke ideology for many years. I think Iger thought this is the way Western Civilization could eventually head, and he wanted to ride the crest of the wave. Instead, what poles increasingly indicate is that woke ideology though very LOUD, has only been accepted by a small fraction of people inside Western Civilization, and virtually no one outside it. In fact, it seldom survives age 25 even in those who adopt it very early. Reports of this have been making it through to CEOs for years, and eventually they will read the tea leaves. Iger sees the reactions to Bud Light, Target, and the Dodgers as indicative of where culture is headed, and it is not headed where Kennedy wanted Iger to believe.

So yeah, Kennedy out, Favreau and Filoni in. Certainly its coming. Disney is pouring its life blood out onto the ground and they have to stop the bleeding.

BTW, it's not just Kennedy and the woke stuff. People hate the MC Universe stuff and the animated to live action conversions are failing. Stuff like Lion King, Aladdin and Little Mermaid didn't need makeovers and they have not been the assured smash at the box office Disney had presumed. Word is they're considering going back to the decades old method of delivering one animated fairy tale type story every other year (often involving speaking animals) and live action stories the years between. That worked for decades, and replacing Robin Williams with Will Smith obviously did not.

As to the Star Wars hotel, it required an appeal outside the US because it is $6k/night. It was never marketed nor intended toward the general Disney audience. Woke ideology cut off overseas support, so if Disney reverses course on its commitments to perversion, they may yet reclaim the petro-dollars, etc., they needed for that venture to succeed.

What were they thinking, that rich Arab oil barons would bring their families to the land of perpetual perversion in order to enjoy the hotel? Did Disney really have no idea what Islamic peoples think of woke ideology?
 
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Brictoria

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The "failure" of the Indiana Jones movie was in relation to it not hitting the $900 million "break even" mark - I recall (but couldn't track down) a recent Doomcock video where it was mentioned that if the movie didn't reach that amount, then KK was going to be personally blamed for the failure of the movie, rather than it being a "these things happen" event and written off.

In this case, having it "fail" is likely to make it easier (and less costly) to have KK removed.
 

Shadow Reaper

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I totally agree KK can and should be blamed if Indy V flops, but I don’t think the CEO needs an excuse to fire KK past all the failures she’s had the last ten years. I think on management’s part, firing her is contingent upon whether they’re ready to let go all she represents, including the current mind virus and the difficulties they have with the state of FL. If Iger thinks the virus fad will flourish, he’ll keep Kennedy. If he thinks the winds have changed, then any excuse is excuse enough.

BTW, in the vid he notes KK was selected by George Lucas himself, which is true. He does not however note their falling out years ago, which has led to her working independently from George for the entire trilogy. By contrast, Filoni and Favreau work with George almost daily. KK hasn’t gotten along with George since before she decided to dishonor and deconstruct Luke Skywalker. She’s no friend of George.
 

Shadow Reaper

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I have never heard anything about relations between Spielberg and Kennedy but I imagine them similarly strained. Best I can tell Steven is still a first generation feminist. I don’t see any sign in his work of hating on “The Patriarchy”. This really is the salient distinction. Mary Daly was publishing in the late eighties and early nineties that women need to tap into rage and hatred in order to motivate change. This is the entire difference between what was always a call to equality (first gen feminism, Gloria Steinem and the National Organization of Women), and the call to war with The Patriarchy.

I have vivid memories of being warned by several professors of the philosophy department at Portland State in the early 90’s, to not attend any feminist philosophy classes, because the men had been disinvited. They literally chased the profs who were in support from the room with their seething rage. That is what feminist ideology had become three decades ago. The only change I’ve seen since is the delineated focus on “The Patriarchy “, a phrase that had not yet come into common use.

Point in fact though, it’s all sith stuff. When you teach people to hate, you’re no better than the Nazis and capable of any horror, like the deconstruction of Luke Skywalker, and Indiana Jones.
 
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Shadow Reaper

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There is in a sense, no way to make this right. No matter how you tell the audience that Indy is over, they'll be upset. Given however they know as they do that this is absolutely the last film in the franchise, the closing scene really should be all about saying goodbye to our hero. Making it about saying hello to KK’s chosen replacement seems to me shockingly myopic. I think KK is having delusions of grandeur. She is hanging herself. If we’d have been ready to accept any replacement, Michael Douglas would have a franchise as Jack Trustworthy Colton.
View: https://youtu.be/XefSnxyTqds
 
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