The Ignoble Death of Indiana Jones
- Thread starter Shadow Reaper
- Start date
That we have gotten to this conversation speaks to how successful Indiana Jones has been as a character.
And like all good things it was bound to be replaced... Not happy about that, but it is what it is.
And like all good things it was bound to be replaced... Not happy about that, but it is what it is.
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Sorry to drag this thing out of the dumpster. But today Indy5 starts in cinemas near me and so the first reviews hit my newsfeed.
My go-to publication C'T (mostly IT stuff but well, they are Nerds) had a particularly harsh reaction to Disneys ongoing trend of Hero recycling.
Rough translation especially for you Shadow Reaper. :-)
...
This is what Disney's blueprint for dealing with veteran heroes looks like: Like Luke Skywalker, who drank blue milk directly from the alien cow in what is probably the most unpopular Star Wars film of all time "The Last Jedi", Lucasfilm, under its president Kathleen Kennedy, also dismantles Indiana Jones, to put in its place a young and infallible (female) protagonist.
The result is always the same: The most popular stories since the dawn of moving pictures comes to an abrupt end at the hands of Disney - an entertainment company that manages to wither even the greatest pop culture phenomena of all time into bloodless streaming content.
...
Never thought the day may come but I thing i can actually wait for Indy5 to show up on free-TV.
My go-to publication C'T (mostly IT stuff but well, they are Nerds) had a particularly harsh reaction to Disneys ongoing trend of Hero recycling.
Rough translation especially for you Shadow Reaper. :-)
...
This is what Disney's blueprint for dealing with veteran heroes looks like: Like Luke Skywalker, who drank blue milk directly from the alien cow in what is probably the most unpopular Star Wars film of all time "The Last Jedi", Lucasfilm, under its president Kathleen Kennedy, also dismantles Indiana Jones, to put in its place a young and infallible (female) protagonist.
The result is always the same: The most popular stories since the dawn of moving pictures comes to an abrupt end at the hands of Disney - an entertainment company that manages to wither even the greatest pop culture phenomena of all time into bloodless streaming content.
...
Never thought the day may come but I thing i can actually wait for Indy5 to show up on free-TV.
It was a no-brained that Disney would try to pass the baton from Ford to a successor of some sort—elsewise they lose all the value of the franchise. They started to move it in Indy4, but fans were disinterested. I’m not offended they tried one last time.
I will be offended if the show presents the character Indy as inept, bumbling or otherwise humiliates him in order to prop up their chosen replacement. That seems KK’s method, to deconstruct whatever positive male image she finds in the way of her bigoted form of feminism. No word yet how she presented Indy in his last film, but waiting to hear. Either way I won’t be going to the theater because I really want to see KK booted from mouseland.
I will be offended if the show presents the character Indy as inept, bumbling or otherwise humiliates him in order to prop up their chosen replacement. That seems KK’s method, to deconstruct whatever positive male image she finds in the way of her bigoted form of feminism. No word yet how she presented Indy in his last film, but waiting to hear. Either way I won’t be going to the theater because I really want to see KK booted from mouseland.
The main complaint seems to be the Indy replacement character is thoroughly unlikeable—like 10X worst than Captain Marvel, especially in how she hates men.
View: https://youtu.be/pW6VCGf2iVA
Err... according to the article I translated in parts I have to say this:
You will be offended.
I quote the same article as before:
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Helena (up and coming Indy V2) makes jokes about Indy's age, and you don't know whether it's to dismantle the superhero, or to soften the obvious, the implausibility of the eighty-year-old action hero. Moments like the one when Salah shouts "Give them hell, Indy!" are not allowed to shine, but turn desolate fractions of a second later by a stupid joke at Indy's expense.
...
This seems to be following the Disney formula they apply to all my childhood heroes as of late.
Well, not ALL of them.
The Samurai Pizza Cats are save as to my knowledge.
And I dare anyone to turn THAT cartoon into a live-action series.
KK just went on record saying Indy V is the best Indy movie yet, and that it will earn at least $600M domestic and $900M international. She’s really betting her job, especially considering the thrashing it got at Cannes.
Bold statement by KK, but they need it. It's another desperate step in marketing, set up your product as a success before it's available, and more ppl might get interested in buying it.
It needs around 900mil just to break even lol
I don't think it's gonna make it, or if it does, it will be too close to call it a success. Not because it's yet another character assassination by the D, not because the usual internet pundits hate on it (probably rightly so), but because no one cares about Indy anymore.
For the older fans who had seen the three real Indy movies, Indy 4 did a number on the franchise already, then the seemingly endless stream of subpar-to-insultingly-bad SW and Marvel increased the apathy towards anything released by the Mouse. I don't think they'll care to watch this in high enough numbers, especially if they hear something negative about this one as well.
Then there's the younger gen, they have no clue what Indy even is. The real movies are too old, indy4 has a low rating and zero following so they won't know it, and this new movie is coming out of the blue for them, it's just not something they'd go for when there's still plenty other movies to choose.
Casual movie goers this weekend (at least where I live) can still choose from Spiderman, FnF X, Tranformers, The Flash, and Guardians3 just to name the really big ones. All much newer, much more recently embedded in their conscience. I know a couple of todays twentysomethings, they all going to see either The Flash or Spidey this weekend, and the thirtysomethings with kids will also go watch Spidey, for the second or third time, cos the kids enjoy it and apparently it's a good movie just like the first one!
Sadly, I don't think the outcome will effect KK in any way, just like it didn't effect her before. Over the years I've heard so many things about who is getting moved to what positions, and gains control over this and that franchise and yada yada, all proclaimed by these internet faces as some sorta meaningful change... yet years later it made zero effing difference in the outcome. Most of the movies and shows we got were just as trash.
Things are just getting worse, instead of improving. Have you seen the new Femvangers leak? The Marvel universe is as good as dead, not like it wasn't already but still, that's gonna be the nail in the coffin...
If you care about the movie but don't wanna watch it, I'd recommend giving Shadiversitis review a listen on the Knigths Watch channel. Unlike Hollywood, he still knows good from evil, and makes some good observations about this movie as well.
So, I want to say Mike is going over the top here because he hates all things KK and has terrible bias. That’s true. It is also true however, that an actress who tells the fans the day before her film’s release that they need to shut up, that is all full of bat-shit crazy. Mike’s not overstating the issue. I think the pressure from fear of failure has broken both KK and Phoebe Waller-Bridge.
I will not be going to the movie. I prefer to leave Indy and his memory to Rest In Peace. I’m disappointed Harrison Ford decided to make this movie. He could have spared us all this.
I’m watching the above review with great interest though it’s so long I’ll need to manage it in chunks. I would just mention in response though. . .he makes much of the fact that the ending is so insulting. This is a feature, not a bug.
The current wave of feminism is deliberately insulting. It’s not like feminism from the sixties that was seeking equality. Today’s feminism is based upon rage and hatred and seeks to insult as a form of retaliatory justice. Exactly this is in radical feminist philosophy from people like Mary Daly. Think about how immersed in that mindset you need to be to think you can so insult your audience and have a positive result. It’s only because KK and PWB are such vicious radical feminists they can delude themselves into believing that insulting the audience can and should lead to a positive outcome.
Bad philosophy leads to bad behavior.
View: https://youtu.be/dSMfeRb0zSY
I will not be going to the movie. I prefer to leave Indy and his memory to Rest In Peace. I’m disappointed Harrison Ford decided to make this movie. He could have spared us all this.
I’m watching the above review with great interest though it’s so long I’ll need to manage it in chunks. I would just mention in response though. . .he makes much of the fact that the ending is so insulting. This is a feature, not a bug.
The current wave of feminism is deliberately insulting. It’s not like feminism from the sixties that was seeking equality. Today’s feminism is based upon rage and hatred and seeks to insult as a form of retaliatory justice. Exactly this is in radical feminist philosophy from people like Mary Daly. Think about how immersed in that mindset you need to be to think you can so insult your audience and have a positive result. It’s only because KK and PWB are such vicious radical feminists they can delude themselves into believing that insulting the audience can and should lead to a positive outcome.
Bad philosophy leads to bad behavior.
View: https://youtu.be/dSMfeRb0zSY
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Cos insulting your audience into submission always works out, doesn't it? hahahaha
ah man, this whole thing is so boring at this point. Same old BS whenever they release a real stinker.
Just to bring more balance to the Force, I listened to André's review (from Midnights Edge) and he said that the first half, or more like third of the movie was decent, enjoyable even, kinda like a proper Indy movie, and he was still the lead character in his own movie. But then it all flipped over to PWB, a self insert of a spineless petty outright criminal of a person, and it all went to hell. So yeah, every "hater" points to the same thing, the second half is trash.
I asked the wife, the most "normie" person I know , if she wanted to watch it. No way in hell! she said, she doesn't want the memories of the originals ruined by watching an 80 year old Ford falling around for 2 hours while some random chick takes the lead. She "just doesn't care to watch that kinda crap". Her words, not mine.
Btw she actively refuses to even acknowledge the existence of the "culture war" so it doesn't ruin her enjoyment of whatever little time she can spend on movies and shows. Although she is (was) a HFord fan and loves Indy, and it would have been the first time she could go out to a real movie theater since we had our second kid, she just doesn't want to waste time and money on it!
This tells me more about this movie than any youtube vid ever could. This movie has no reason to exist.
btw, Ford had never seemed to care for his most popular characters, he wanted Solo to die in Ep4 and was relieved with Indy ending on Last Crusade. From the old interviews it always seemed to me that he was just there to do a job and leave it at the set as soon as he clocked out.
I'm sure he took this job because it's yet another very nice paycheck, and he can go back to playing golf or crash into golf courses when he feels like it without ever having to think about these "jobs" ever again.
It looks like the Babylon Bee are having some fun regarding Lucasfilm and their portrayal of Indiana Jones and Luke Skywalker in recent films...
https://babylonbee.com/news/hollywood-concerned-as-theyre-running-out-of-beloved-movie-heroes-to-turn-into-sad-pathetic-old-men
https://babylonbee.com/news/hollywood-concerned-as-theyre-running-out-of-beloved-movie-heroes-to-turn-into-sad-pathetic-old-men
I salute your wife for being a reasonable and well grounded person.
And I salute you for choosing to marry her.
(That was your choice, righ?)
My girlfriend wants to go see that movie and I don't have it in me to stop her.
Though i probably should.
This sounds like a nothingburger to me. Given reports that Iger has made KK’s job contingent upon success of Indy 5 are true, it only makes sense to give her a couple weeks off so there are no premature responses. Putting her official email on hold makes sense too, since both she and PWB have been making these caustic statements to the fans. In Iger’s place I would have done the same as well as instructed them both to refrain from tweeting, etc.
I don’t think we’ll hear anything substantive for two weeks. Indy 5 deserves that much time to succeed or fail. Hopefully Iger has spared us some cheesy melodrama with KK blaming the fans, etc.
What I don’t think people appreciate is just how much depends upon the fans. Despite what KK or PWB might think or feel, their job is not to socially engineer society. It is to entertain. Given they can’t accept this, their fears and the outcome may not surprise, and certainly KK would make more public statements were she not restrained from doing so.
I think Indy will bomb and KK will be gone. What I don’t get is the recent cancellation of Rangers of the New Republic. That is at odds with KK leaving, but I read that was Dave and Jon’s decision. Maybe that’s not so and there’s hope for Rangers?
Meanwhile, The Acolyte has been cancelled (thank God!), and Asoka is primed to heal the Mouse. Let’s wait and see. Asoka is the hero we need.
I don’t think we’ll hear anything substantive for two weeks. Indy 5 deserves that much time to succeed or fail. Hopefully Iger has spared us some cheesy melodrama with KK blaming the fans, etc.
What I don’t think people appreciate is just how much depends upon the fans. Despite what KK or PWB might think or feel, their job is not to socially engineer society. It is to entertain. Given they can’t accept this, their fears and the outcome may not surprise, and certainly KK would make more public statements were she not restrained from doing so.
I think Indy will bomb and KK will be gone. What I don’t get is the recent cancellation of Rangers of the New Republic. That is at odds with KK leaving, but I read that was Dave and Jon’s decision. Maybe that’s not so and there’s hope for Rangers?
Meanwhile, The Acolyte has been cancelled (thank God!), and Asoka is primed to heal the Mouse. Let’s wait and see. Asoka is the hero we need.
The Acolyte and Headlund firing are still only (strong) rumors, but I'd love it if it were true.
I don't hold any hopes for Asoka since Obiwan or Boba. I really really would love it to be good, but I don't think they can do Thrawn any justice. I genuinely couldn't care less about how they handle Asoka or her pals, because I haven't seen pretty much anything of em, I only care about Thrawn. He is my childhood extended lore character, not the animated series. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Asoka, it's just an age difference, I was reading SW books at the time, and I didn't have access to the animated shows until much much later. I've seen a few since then, I know they are decent, but that's about it.
KK cannot be fired. I don't believe that can happen. She can be slowly "elevated" into new made up roles that makes her lose her influence on what is actually being made, until she steps down due to "health reasons" or sumthin bs. Would love to see that happen.
Their job is to entertain us yes, and also make as much money as possible for the investors. That hasn't been happening for quiet a while now.
Indy is probably on it's way to bomb, with an opening of only 24mil worldwide. Even the latest Transformers did better than this. Dialysis of Dysentery is having a much worse, or rather much louder, negative reception compared to Crystal Skulk, which ended up making something like 760mil overall, so I don't think it will even reach those numbers. As far as I know, this was made for 300mil, with a probable budget for marketing at an extra 150mil. Now every ticket sold gets a cut taken out for the theaters, roughly 50%, so that's already 900mil just to break even.
Elemental, a Pixar animation turned into another Disney product released 2 weeks ago, has bombed too. It's at 137mil WW, with a budget of 200mil. It will break even at some point, probably, but just like Lightyear, it won't be a runaway success.
Same goes for The little barmaid just a month ago,if we don't account for marketing costs it just about hit the break even point at 250mil budget, 500mil worldwide. That is not a success either.
Obviously there are tax exemptions and "smart" accounting and shady deals that can make up for some of the losses, so that these all end up in the black somehow, but it won't be by much. I don't think investors are investing just to get "something" back, they want "all the money in the world" levels of returns.
So yes, I think there will be consequences.
To be fair, movies that are so expensive are just not doing well. Fast 10 is barely at a 2.1 x budget income, meaning very much still in the red (although as it's a 3 part movie who knows how much of the budget actually accounts for only this release), The Flash bombed huge as it has been pulled from like half the theaters after only 2 weeks and it only reached a 1.1x budget... Guardians did the best so far at a roughly 70+mil in the black, but still not that great. Transformers Rise of the beasts, a movie twisted into something that's far removed from the original Bay movies, is underperforming as well, with 3 weeks in theaters not even close to breaking even with it's numbers flatlining. It also had a budget of 200mil.
The low to meh performance of those type of movies shows that the audience is getting sick and tired of it. On the other hand, classic action movies like John Wick 4 did much better numbers, only a 100mil budget, 430mil in. Extraction 2 on Netflix is supposedly breaking records and viewers are loving it (even though I think it was much dumber than the first and lost all of it's magic). It just shows that people want to be entertained, not lectured at in the name of "escapism".
Same goes for The little barmaid just a month ago,if we don't account for marketing costs it just about hit the break even point at 250mil budget, 500mil worldwide. That is not a success either.
Obviously there are tax exemptions and "smart" accounting and shady deals that can make up for some of the losses, so that these all end up in the black somehow, but it won't be by much. I don't think investors are investing just to get "something" back, they want "all the money in the world" levels of returns.
So yes, I think there will be consequences.
To be fair, movies that are so expensive are just not doing well. Fast 10 is barely at a 2.1 x budget income, meaning very much still in the red (although as it's a 3 part movie who knows how much of the budget actually accounts for only this release), The Flash bombed huge as it has been pulled from like half the theaters after only 2 weeks and it only reached a 1.1x budget... Guardians did the best so far at a roughly 70+mil in the black, but still not that great. Transformers Rise of the beasts, a movie twisted into something that's far removed from the original Bay movies, is underperforming as well, with 3 weeks in theaters not even close to breaking even with it's numbers flatlining. It also had a budget of 200mil.
The low to meh performance of those type of movies shows that the audience is getting sick and tired of it. On the other hand, classic action movies like John Wick 4 did much better numbers, only a 100mil budget, 430mil in. Extraction 2 on Netflix is supposedly breaking records and viewers are loving it (even though I think it was much dumber than the first and lost all of it's magic). It just shows that people want to be entertained, not lectured at in the name of "escapism".
Just for fun, I did some very-uninformed but "good-enough for the pub" calculations on the back of a napkin. Indy5 opened in 4600 theaters (official), and by my numbers (worldwide average: theater room 250 seats, 10dollar per ticket, 10 screenings a day), on average, less than 35 ppl were sitting in on a screening. Again, on average, meaning you could find packed theater rooms at peak times but otherwise it was empty. Very empty. Not the "taking a day off work" kind of first screening like The Force Awakens was, that's for sure.
It seems to me that most who saw it already wanted to watch a movie in a theater on Friday, any movie, not "Indy fans" who were there to see just this movie in particular. Sad indeed.
tldr.: looks like Disney is fucked. Finally, truly fucked. So something will have to change...
Quesiton is, will they try to double-down (again), or finally admit that it makes them no money and change direction?
Let me encourage you to give Dave Filoni and Jon Favreau a chance. Their work is still what George Lucas intends. They work regularly with George and have done a great job on Star Wars Rebels (where Asoka was created) and the first two seasons on Mando. Season 3 went FUBAR because KK fired Gina Caranno as Cara Dune and Cara had had an enormous part in season 3 in order to set up Rangers. KK screwed that and the rewrite for season 3 was rushed and half hearted.
Asoka is at the heart of the Thrawn story. I think it deserves an open mind. See the post in the other thread about “Good Star Wars”.
People don’t appreciate how close we came to having the entire Star Wars cosmology deconstructed to suit Kennedy’s hubris. Acolyte planned to turn the Jedi into the villains and the Sith into champions of freedom. No fan could possibly have accepted the crazy melodrama KK had in mind. Contrast this against Dave and Jon who are both still trying to be true to George Lucas’ world and intentions. They both want to preserve the past and have no need to authenticate themselves by shitting on George’s work.
The Asoka stuff is good. . .really, really, really good. I highly recommend all of Rebels. It elevates honor, and dignity, and fidelity. It explores how hubris destroyed the Jedi and how one person rose above it all to become a true “Paragon of the Light” and provide hope for the future.
Asoka is the hero we need—something we could never have gotten from Kennedy, PWB or Headlund. The Mouse is in that awkward place where it can only be saved by a woman, and that woman needs to be missing all the toxic masculinity written into every “strong female character” over the last decade. There’s nothing toxic about Asoka. It is in fact her humility that makes her the stirring character she is. Give her a chance.
Asoka is at the heart of the Thrawn story. I think it deserves an open mind. See the post in the other thread about “Good Star Wars”.
People don’t appreciate how close we came to having the entire Star Wars cosmology deconstructed to suit Kennedy’s hubris. Acolyte planned to turn the Jedi into the villains and the Sith into champions of freedom. No fan could possibly have accepted the crazy melodrama KK had in mind. Contrast this against Dave and Jon who are both still trying to be true to George Lucas’ world and intentions. They both want to preserve the past and have no need to authenticate themselves by shitting on George’s work.
The Asoka stuff is good. . .really, really, really good. I highly recommend all of Rebels. It elevates honor, and dignity, and fidelity. It explores how hubris destroyed the Jedi and how one person rose above it all to become a true “Paragon of the Light” and provide hope for the future.
Asoka is the hero we need—something we could never have gotten from Kennedy, PWB or Headlund. The Mouse is in that awkward place where it can only be saved by a woman, and that woman needs to be missing all the toxic masculinity written into every “strong female character” over the last decade. There’s nothing toxic about Asoka. It is in fact her humility that makes her the stirring character she is. Give her a chance.
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“We knew going in, fans were going to hate this; but we both agreed and said “who cares? Let’s just do it.”
Speaking of killing off Indy’s son and divorcing him so he’s a broken man.
So yeah, if you make something saying “who cares” about the audience, you can’t complain much when the audience hears about it and stays away from the theater.
View: https://youtu.be/Kh9hRJJum5w
Speaking of killing off Indy’s son and divorcing him so he’s a broken man.
So yeah, if you make something saying “who cares” about the audience, you can’t complain much when the audience hears about it and stays away from the theater.
Wow. The numbers coming in are worse than anyone anticipated. KK and PWB must be agonizing. One projection I’ve seen off the current figures is it might make $400M and might not. That’s crazy.