The youtuber here has decided that Star Citizen will lose its casual player base to Starfield.
While i don't think the point of SC taking ages is invalid (bedsheets causing it is just as invalid as dashboard bobbleheads causing it though, remember those days?), I dont think an observer can look at CIG and Bethseda and compare timescales directly?So there is a point in that Bethesda is releasing a game that is similar to the one CIG is working on while lacking the same graphic fidelity was able to accomplish it in a significantly shorter time period.
@Bambooza The argument that bedsheet folding physics holds up the development is as silly as it sounds. As Montoya explained, they are building cloth sim tech. What he didn't tell you is how effin hard that is to do in a game engine in real time. No one gives two shits about the bedheets ripple and fold, but you will be glad they did it when your capes will flow and wrap around your character in the wind as perfectly as you have never seen before, without clipping through half your torso like it does now (as it does in every other game ever made that has cloth "simmed" and not baked. And when I say simmed, I mean it's faked with rigged bones. I couldn't tell you a single title that actually does real time Cloth Sim instead of just an elaborate bone system for capes. It's just not practical, yet.) BTW if anyone's interested in the current best real-time soft body/cloth physics in a game, just look at BeamNG Drive. Technically the exact same thing, just applied to metal sheets.
When the bedsheet physics are done, we should all petition CR to give us Org Flags! How cool that would be, to have your own or your org's flag up at your homestead, or even tied to the nose of your ship!
Not sure WoW is a great example when focused on graphics, Blizzard games have always had subpar graphics but their game features and mechanics are where they mostly shine. But it does touch on a subject of in a game what is more important? The visual style or the gameplay elements? And I think in this case the answer is pretty clear while graphics can attract lots of attention and hype but cannot stand on their own it's the gameplay elements that are fundamentally far more valuable. Games like WoW with its poor graphics and games like Minecraft and Factorio despite their poor graphics are rock solid in their gameplay enjoyment.Anyways, I wouldn't worry about them getting so behind that we end up with a Duke Nukem Forever problem. Lemme put it this way: look at WoW. It looked like absolute trash when it released, and still does to this day despite it's updates (I think it looks even worse with every "modernizing pass").
Not sure what graphical feature you are talking about here.Nobody does this, and it shows. Same thing for the bullets from the barrell guns. Not many do it this way in multiplayer, and especially don't do both of these at the same time.
This might be the whole truth. That CIG does not have a future after SC and no clear way to continue to generate revenue once the game gets released and so they continue to milk the cash cow for as long as they can.Why do we keep getting assetts that are half-done, like ships, modules (they need to be modified to be repairable) and such?
The income from the sale of those items outweighs the expenditure of updating them later.
As for holding out on game mechanics, I dunno. Doesn't make much sense to hold em back unless they want to keep stretching the funding. Call it a scam, call it just part of doing business, both are correct.
The tldr is that CR knew he needed to stretch this out, so he did.
Montoya, I think you make some good points, but you also missed a few things as well.
1) even though I am a huge supporter of SC, I feel that the extended delay in development is starting to result in some serious Tech debt. CIG has added a lot of new content to ships over the past few years. While this is great in terms of fidelity, it also means they have to go back and revise the ships…again…to bring them up to the current level of development, we also know that CIG has yet more changes they want to do, so even if they manage to go through them all in the next two years, there will be yet another round waiting. Pat of this is because instead of developing a handful of ships as tech development platforms and then concepts for the rest, then running them all though the pipeline once all the pieces are in place, they developed a huge number of ships and now they need to keep revising them to current standards.
2) engine age. Even though they are still adding on to the engine and revising it, the base game engine is still 2, if not 3 generations old. This means that newer games will be easier to develop with better looks, running the risk of leaving star citizen to look dated when it releases.
3) this is just the first shot, other games are out there in development, CR himself said if it took 10 years to release, they would run the risk of losing their advantages in tech. It’s been 10 years. I suspect other games could come in the future and leave SC in the dust. no, starfield has not done that.
4) SQ42 runs the risk that if their story is not as compelling as Starfield‘s single player game, they might not generate the sales they were hoping for. While I don’t think they need the funding from SQ42 to complete SC like they initially thought, a failure could lead to doubt about its future.
5) Bethesda made some jabs at SC and their 100 systems. While I agree that they are not the same game Or even type of game, I think there will continue to be comparisons made now, and in the future between SF and SQ42/SC.
I hope both games succeed.
I think you missed my point. It wasn't based upon them spending development resources on bedsheets in of itself but that they had development time not otherwise engaged in doing new features and so spent it on bedsheets (it could also just have been an onboarding exercise for new hire and not development cycles blocked by other things and so they picked something that could be flushed out while waiting). But bed sheet tech is nothing new they already had cloth tech years ago back in 2018 (1) and so bed sheets is not a demonstration of a new feature but simply applying an established feature to more fidelity that most likely will have a small impact in the overall experience for most players. So the question really is why is time and money spent on small payoffs that are not showcasing a tech demonstration of a new tech feature and instead spent on items that have a small payoff when there are far more impactful gameplay elements that need to be completed?
Not sure WoW is a great example when focused on graphics, Blizzard games have always had subpar graphics but their game features and mechanics are where they mostly shine. But it does touch on a subject of in a game what is more important? The visual style or the gameplay elements? And I think in this case the answer is pretty clear while graphics can attract lots of attention and hype but cannot stand on their own it's the gameplay elements that are fundamentally far more valuable. Games like WoW with its poor graphics and games like Minecraft and Factorio despite their poor graphics are rock solid in their gameplay enjoyment.
Not sure what graphical feature you are talking about here.
This might be the whole truth. That CIG does not have a future after SC and no clear way to continue to generate revenue once the game gets released and so they continue to milk the cash cow for as long as they can.
Well said. The only thing that would still be challenging to implement would be the planetary tech but I am not sure it would take more than a year to build the tool to be used by Unreal. The other far more valuable thing to CIG is all the art assets and mocap and that would take a lot of time to recreate.
2.: engine age, lol... Starfield's engine is as old as those who will play it! It's the exact same engine as Oblivion (Morrowind to be exact but it was a huge leap between the two). You wouldn't call it looking like a 20 y.o. game now would you? Upgrading an engine, especially if you rewrote most of it to be custom just like with SC, can be beneficial in the long run cos you are already familiar with how it works (and how it doesn't).
Gens don't mean shit, it's a marketing term used since consoles need something to sell them.
That's the thing, volumetric clouds do exist in UE 5. (https://docs.unrealengine.com/4.27/en-US/BuildingWorlds/LightingAndShadows/VolumetricClouds/)Take a "next gen engine" like Unreal 5 and try to implement the planetary lighitng system with volumetric clouds... It will take as long as it took SC to make their own, cos it does not exist as premade tech, and won't exist probably for 10-20 more "gens" as it's too niche and not really useful for anything the investors like to see getting made. It's just not a thing, having full traversable persistent planets with real time rotations and shadows and whatnot. You could code it in to Unreal engine or probably even Starfiled, but they took the easy way out with no "real" planets, just loading screens and landing zones prog-genned... Will it be good enough to "beat" SC at it's own game? No. Most definitely not. You will never feel the same grandiose scale and thus it will feel lacking. After it turns out the endless planets are just "empty" like in NoMansLie, I doubt any studio will be given money to try and beat SC. Maybe after SC goes into beta and hits the 1 billion mark... Aynways, engine-age is not a thing yet with SC. They developed their own tools, and they have twisted the engine apart so much that it's unrecognizable by now. It's not a 2-3 gen old engine, it is it's own thing and will be upgraded as far as they can.
Also, next gen = yeah great, especially when you can't play it unless your upgrade your PC and OS as well... This is an MMO, it's supposed to be a bit outdated so way more ppl can play it!
Same I am looking forward to Starfield and I am looking forward to a fully flushed out SC. And I am sure in time more games will leave SC in the dust as we are seeing even more immersive worlds being crafted and graphic engines allowing for even more to be done.3.: I hope other games come and leave SC in the dust! It would be sooo cool! I doubt it will happen in my lifetime though, with how the game industry works (pumping out the same shit year over year purely to please investors and fresh 12yearolds)
4.: SQ42 is a Story driven Linear space-sim / shooter with No rpg elements (unless CR changed it significantly). Starfield is an open world RPG with an optional main story line (probably, just like every bethesda rpg so far). I don't see the player base overlapping much. Also, timing. SQ42 won't release anywhere near Starfield. Moreoever, I think that the ppl who got into the space combat in Starfield and found themselves wanting more, might be interested to try SQ42 if it does well enough years later when it finally comes out.
5.: there will be comparisons, even though they have nothing to do with each other. Meh, can't be helped I guess. Stupids gonna keep on stupiding...
I do hope Starfield doesn't suck, I'm looking forward to it as well.
You keep saying that UE5 has this and that and is more capable, and I keep saying it still would take a comparable amount of work to make it work for a game like SC,cos just because something has a generic feature built in, doesn't mean it will work for your specific needs out of the box.That's the thing, volumetric clouds do exist in UE 5. (https://docs.unrealengine.com/4.27/en-US/BuildingWorlds/LightingAndShadows/VolumetricClouds/)
Same I am looking forward to Starfield and I am looking forward to a fully flushed out SC. And I am sure in time more games will leave SC in the dust as we are seeing even more immersive worlds being crafted and graphic engines allowing for even more to be done.
Thinking about it there must be a big difference between implementing out-the-box volumetric clouds you only ever see from the ground, and implementing volumetric clouds you fly through, fall through, shoot light emitting energy weapons through, explode in etc etc etc.You keep saying that UE5 has this and that and is more capable, and I keep saying it still would take a comparable amount of work to make it work for a game like SC,cos just because something has a generic feature built in, doesn't mean it will work for your specific needs out of the box.
I am sorry for coming across as being overly nitpicky. I'm simply attempting to show that CIG is spending a great deal of effort on enhancing an engine that they got a license to that really is holding them back from their vision. In the original vision, the engine would have been fine as it really had far more in common with Starfield in scope than what SC has become. And that's the thing I think is holding them back in many ways is the amount of work and time they are having to invest in repurposing the engine where most game studios only have development staff to make small modifications to the engine to enable a killer feature while most of the team is artists and designers. While I am not sure what it would take to make a comparable game in UE from the art and design standpoint as my background is in programming but from an engine standpoint it would not take long to implement the missing features and most of that would be spent on the planet tech.You keep saying that UE5 has this and that and is more capable, and I keep saying it still would take a comparable amount of work to make it work for a game like SC,cos just because something has a generic feature built in, doesn't mean it will work for your specific needs out of the box.
I think it will be a while before we see another SC attempt. I am sure we will see lots more games like Starfield given there is an appetite for it but most studios like to play it safe and what CIG has done is very risky.To be honest I don't really care who and how will do it, but I'm perfectly fine with someone making a game, on UE5 if they so choose, that wipes the floor with what SC will become. The sooner the better, I'm kinda bored of everything being broken all the time. I didn't put in thousands dollars, I don't feel like I'm being robbed of anything if something comes along that is better in every way. Also as @Montoya likes to point out rightly so, you can like and enjoy more than one game that has a similar premise!
But to be real for a sec, I don't think this will happen in the next 10 years.