The Storm AA

Shadow Reaper

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Pretty insightful vid, and fun to watch. Some great video here. My take away is that once the glitches are out of both the bombers and the Storms, CIG will have given us ample reasons to prefer a Combined Arms policy, meaning: you’ll want to combine nearly every kind of arms in order for them to make up for each other’s weaknesses.

So for instance, if you’re flying Libs, Hercs or Ironsides onto the field in order to land forces, probably each should carry a mixture of vehicles that work together. How many Storms will fit in a Lib is not then the question. What is the precise mix of vehicles for each independent strike force is a much better question

We won’t be able to answer that question until we see how the Storms do against fighters, and especially the Fury. If the Fury can dodge S1 missiles while close to the ground, I think it’s gonna be hard to find Storm drivers. OTOH, if they can’t; the Storms change everything.

I’m enjoying the diversity of arms and really want to see railgun wielding Titansuits in the mix.

View: https://youtu.be/bjj2th5fxp8?si=DMc6M0Z1YzGVb9Wo
 

Ayeteeone

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I agree with you that the Combined Arms concept is the path they are on; we know that they have or have had military advisors in the studios helping them concept the gameplay and interactions.

For an MMO that wants to be around for a long time after release, the depth this would bring if done properly is very welcome. It gives legitimate game reasons for players to work together and feel like they have contributed something to the success of the group. Of course, the details matter..!

Making combined arms worthwhile means having a range of vulnerabilities for those arms to exploit, and of course separating the strengths of the various tools to do the exploiting onto different platforms. Being complex JUST to be complex is not wise, however. A ship, vehicle or tool needs to provide a clear advantage in specific situations, and ONLY for game purposes a countering weakness for the player to accept and manage. In the real world we'd prefer to not have weaknesses the opposition can leverage (looking at you F-35).

This is what drove Master Modes development; the weaknesses that light fighters have (relatively fragile, limited weapons) could not be exploited by other ships because their speed advantage made them too difficult to hit. Slowing them down allowed other tools like the AA to find a use case and opened up the playground for a whole slew of other weapon tunings that provide interesting choices again. Having said that, there is clearly quite a lot of work for Yogi's team to do! I'm betting MM is here to stay, but that leaves everything that is not specific to SQ42 in desperate need of attention.

One of those characteristics that CIG is building in is the need to have multiple players to access certain advantages. Turrets are probably the most obvious example, and a ship that suffers from this rather than benefits is the Anvil Hurricane. It's fighter sized but flies like a box truck, in deference to the turret and how much damage it can do. Another upcoming ship is the Legionnairre. It's hacking abi[ity is said to be tied to the copilot seat, and in those moments where it is being employed there should be more than enough pucker-factor to keep both crew engaged.

Of course this (as intended) provides reasons for players to group up, BUT I have serious questions how viable it will be for the game longterm to lock a huge amount of the content behind the need to interact with other people. I.E. I have a Sentinel - will I need to have someone else fly it while I'm running the EW systems? Or will they treat it like as a mode to shift into?
 
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Shadow Reaper

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Great question. In almost every instance to date, CIG has chosen to pressure players to work together. So probably when the Sentinel gets its EW suite, you’ll need to be in back to use it. The only exception I can think of is slaving the aux guns on the Cutty to the pilot. I think CIG felt they had to in order to sell that ship.
 

Shadow Reaper

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Making combined arms worthwhile means having a range of vulnerabilities for those arms to exploit, and of course separating the strengths of the various tools to do the exploiting onto different platforms. Being complex JUST to be complex is not wise, however. A ship, vehicle or tool needs to provide a clear advantage in specific situations. . .
Its frustrating right now trying to identify specific advantages since even the vehicles we have, have stats that could change. There are a few advantages though, that we can expect will endure into and past Beta.

Deckspace matters. Ships and vehicles with a smaller footprint will always have an advantage. This won’t change as stats change.

Ships have larger shields. It’s going to be difficult for CIG to make ground battles work such that the largest shield hanging over the battlefield wins the battle. Right now, fly an Idris out over a vehicle battle and its shields will win that battle. My guess is CIG will introduce something that seriously degrades shields, especially well in atmo. This might come attached to the spike missiles we’re waiting on now for over a decade.

Originally, only special heavy fighters like the Vanguard and larger could carry S3 missiles, and the Arrester III was first designed to be a spike missile, that does distortion damage. CIG has still not worked this out. They could however, on a moment’s notice release Arresters doing distortion damage, and the Storm’s ability to launch so many of them could scare frigate hover pirates off the battlefield. I’m expecting something like this.
 

Shadow Reaper

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It’s not mine. A friend was trying it in various rides. Would have been great in the Valkyrie. Do you know if it fits in the Max? The Lancers will likely get their stealth status back since Chris Robert’s himself said it is intended to be a stealth platform. Sneaking to the surface seems to me wiser than fighting to the surface.
 

Shadow Reaper

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Has anyone here seen the AA and Fury duke it out yet? I don’t think missiles and countermeasures will go through much future revision and how those two cope with each other seems to me will drive force selection pretty heavily. There’s little reason to invest in AA transport if the Fury can evade its missiles and destroy them. Furies take up less deckspace than Storms and they’re obviously much more mobile. OTOH, if the Furies can’t evade those missiles, no one is going to bring them to the fight.

If anyone does want to dabble with this, let me suggest you do not need to try to kill the Storms. They have huge hull points and it would take too long. What you need to do is heat the Storms up so they appear on the sensors of other, more formidable platforms.

The main defense of the Storm is its tiny signature. If however you blast it some with quad Singe-2 cannons, you have essentially “painted” the target for someone else to kill. Get it hot enough and a MIS can eliminate it with a single salvo from 25km. Just it’s got to be really hot. I think you can get it hot much more quickly and easily than killing it with a Fury.
 
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NaffNaffBobFace

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It’s not mine. A friend was trying it in various rides. Would have been great in the Valkyrie. Do you know if it fits in the Max? The Lancers will likely get their stealth status back since Chris Robert’s himself said it is intended to be a stealth platform. Sneaking to the surface seems to me wiser than fighting to the surface.
Have not had access to a Max to try, the Storm Platform is roughly the same width as the Nova and neither fit through the Starfarers rear hatch which I've got and is fair heckin' wide so I'd go out on a limb and confidently state not a chance for the Max.
 

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Shadow Reaper

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Nice. I still can’t see buying until we have more answers. What are the sensor ranges? If the S0 has a 0.5 multiplier, then it can’t detect a Sabre until it is at 2km, and even S1 missiles won’t lock under 1km, which means you can’t really defend against any Sabre save for a foot soldier with a railgun. Maybe that’s fine, but foot soldiers are very vulnerable.

The other solution is just go big. A Redeemer or HH hanging over the battlefield will make Storms go boom, right up until an Eclipse arrives. And if you have to cope with Eclipses, you go right back to the Sabre. And so on. . .

You know my tendency is lean into stealth, and stealth is really good against vehicle sensors.

BTW, digesting all the new weapons stats takes a lot of time, and I think they made quite a few mistakes. Panthers should not be stealthier than Quarrelers. But the new Panther stats are all full of awesome. Give reasons to skip the Singe to be sure.
 

NaffNaffBobFace

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Personally I was surprised the Storm single person Light tank was as wide as the Nova 3 crew Heavy tank but I wasn't saying no to a Light tank and it does just look soooo good I wouldn't want to change it. When the 600i rework comes in I'll have a craft that can carry the thing, too.
 

Ayeteeone

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BTW, digesting all the new weapons stats takes a lot of time, and I think they made quite a few mistakes. Panthers should not be stealthier than Quarrelers. But the new Panther stats are all full of awesome. Give reasons to skip the Singe to be sure.
Until you actually use them. Repeaters of any kind simply can't keep up with the TTK of the cannons in this patch. Like a lot of folks, I've settled into using the Omnisky's on daily driver ships for their overall balance of speed, accuracy, alpha and power efficiency. A notable exception is the Vanguard series, which has issues matching projectile velocities between the fixed hardpoints and the size 5. Bering laser cannons bring out the best efficiency+damage while being slightly handicapped with a lower velocity; but may not be the best choice for smaller targets. Indeed, with the direction that weapons have taken in this patch, the Vanguards are in a weird place.

Where repeaters and especially the Panthers SHINE is as turret weapons.
 
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NaffNaffBobFace

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Repeaters of any kind simply can't keep up with the TTK of the cannons in this patch. Like a lot of folks, I've settled into using the Omnisky's on daily driver ships for their overall balance of speed, accuracy, alpha and power efficiency.
No way! The Omnis are back in?! This proves history is cyclical, remember when those, the Sledge, Broadsword and Tarantulas were all the pick of the crop in patches of old? :glorious:
 

Ayeteeone

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@NaffNaffBobFace The Broadsword and Tarantulas are back to being very good choices. Overall TTK is much higher due to a number of factors that CIG has adjusted but Ballistic Cannon are quite good at winning fights again.

There is a very niche Strife build which is worth having some fun with as well; it's stealth stuff that you might find interesting @Shadow Reaper .

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JTfftyvdbU
 

Shadow Reaper

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Yes, I just recently found out about the strife too. I used to set up the Sentinel with S5 sniper and 4S2 normal combat. I’d like to try it the other way around but the proprietary nature of those 4 S2 nose guns in the Vanguard thwarts my intentions. No way to equip the Strife nor anything like it. Worse still, the Vanguard guns are all screwed up. There’s no difference between cannons and repeaters. Well done, CIG.

I will say, a single S5 laser repeater is enough for most combat, especially if you also have an EMP. So if when they fix the proprietary weapons they give us a Strife-like weapon, the Vanguard could become a sniper.

The Sabre is good for it! First Sabre build to be compelling in a long time.
 
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Shadow Reaper

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I’d really like a spreadsheet. There are more factors to consider than there used to be and I haven’t got my arms around them yet.

Used to be ballistics all had lower signature than lasers, but IIRC now, IR is up on ballistics so they’re not the quiet weapons they once were. I also noticed many of their magazines have gone from 1.1 seconds to 1.9, and they were never exhausted according to their rating, so I don’t know what to make of it.

One thing is for sure—TTK with the Strife is much lower than the stats predict. They must be flying through internals or something. We weren’t expecting that until armor came in. So I don’t know what to think.

Lots of ammo speeds are up too.
 

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I’d really like a spreadsheet. There are more factors to consider than there used to be and I haven’t got my arms around them yet.

Used to be ballistics all had lower signature than lasers, but IIRC now, IR is up on ballistics so they’re not the quiet weapons they once were. I also noticed many of their magazines have gone from 1.1 seconds to 1.9, and they were never exhausted according to their rating, so I don’t know what to make of it.

One thing is for sure—TTK with the Strife is much lower than the stats predict. They must be flying through internals or something. We weren’t expecting that until armor came in. So I don’t know what to think.

Lots of ammo speeds are up too.
With everything in so much Flux not sure there really is a point in a spreadsheet.

Compound with how components work engineering coming online and the evolving flight dynamics leads to ever changing meta.
 
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