The true "Universal Time"

[Bruttle]

There was a conversation going on over on the RSI forums and it really got me thinking in a different way. Since I really like things that make my brain work harder, I figured I would bring it over here too. The conversation was about time in SC. Would they have local times, or universal times?

For me, I think the whole thing is going to be just like the flight model perception issue. Once you lose the horizon, you are forced to truly think of space in 3D. As a result, as Ender said, there is no up.

A similar change in perception is time. Once you lose localization, time no longer fits in the constraints of a day/night cycle. Instead of seeing time as a function of measuring daylight, you start seeing time completely separate from the sun's position. Because, if you are traveling from planet to planet, it doesn't matter where the sun is.

We, as humans, live on a 24 hour schedule. This is only because of the speed that our earth rotates. If the earth rotated slower, our days would be longer and our biology would have adjusted to that schedule. The same applies to our concept of a year. That was developed based on the movement of our solar system. Other solar systems would realistically measure their time in completely different increments.

So not only would our human concept of hours be different, but our dates would be different as well. I would imagine the only feasible solution would be a universally agreed "galactic time" or whatever they would name it. Otherwise, it would just get really confusing. On our end though, the developer finally has an "in lore" reason why game time is different from our time. Why wouldn't they jump on that.

 

[DarthMunkee]

I haven't seen what they intend for the time in game, but I think for the most part time would be based on the local day. If you have a colony on Mars, the days there are 40 minutes longer than here so the time would be adjusted accordingly. So you could assume that time on any other planet would be handled the same way.

So what do you do with ships then? Well, the easiest solution would be for the ships to keep the time of where they are from. A ship from Mars would keep Martian time, likewise, any space station in orbit would keep the same time. So you have a ship from Mars that travels to Crusader, they would still be on Martian time. If they're there for a while they may switch to Crusader time to make business easier but that would probably be up to the ship to decide.

The only way to keep everyone on the same page though would be a galactic time like you mentioned. This would have to include dates too, like stardates from Star Trek. This would be similar to our modern day Zulu time or Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) that acts as a standard so that we can all know what time a thing is supposed to happen. So, in the end you would have to keep track of 2 different times, one that makes sense for where you are and one so that everyone else could know what the heck you mean when you say I'll be there at 14:72 CST (Crusader Standard Time)

 

[Printimus]

I'm in the Navy and thus have no concept of time or what that means.

 

[Black Sunder]

I'm in the Navy and thus have no concept of time or what that means.

Its something other people have.

 

[Printimus]

Its something other people have.

Yup, you lost me.

 

[Myre]

This was a highly upvoted thread earlier this week on Reddit regarding this topic.

Here are some relevant highly upvoted quotes

Because traveling slower than lightspeed would expose the colonists to time dilation any universal calendar would make no sense.

There is no way to travel faster than light and even if there was a way there would be no simultaneity because of Special Relativity.

So probably every system will have their own calendar and time system.

Think of how two star systems would communicate. They would beam a signal from one system to another which would travel the speed of light. Alpha Centauri, the closest star system to us, is 4.37 light-years away. So it would take 4.37 years for a signal from earth to reach Alpha Centauri and another 4.37 years to get a response.

There would be no clock that could keep consistent time across star systems.

Travelling to the star systems would cause a lot of time dilation which just means that as you travel close to the speed of light time goes slower. So if you travelled anywhere at close to the speed of light, your clock would become out of sync with the clocks back on Earth.

The best that we could have would be just using Earths time frame ie days months years and scaling it accordingly to other planets. One would have to adjust for the aforementioned time delay.

Basically it is physically impossible to have a 'Universal Time'. If atomic clocks that go just as far as to the ISS become out of sync with others back on earth, imagine how things would be on a Universal scale.

However, in a reality where Data Transfer is instant and synchronized like in Star Citizen (at least from the eyes of the players) I suppose they'd probably still be using seconds, minutes and hours in a clock with as many hours as a day. Light Time and Dark time may =/= Day and Night as humans metabolism is pretty locked to a 24 hour circadian rhythm.

 

[Cyril]

A few things.

We aren't really as locked into the 24 hours as you might think. Up until just 2 years ago the normal day on a submarine was 18 hours (6 on 12 off).
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/10/16/submarine-force-now-24hour-work-day.html

The other fun thing to think about is ship time vs local time. If you were to stay in quantum travel (0.2c) for a day you would be almost 29 minutes out of sync. https://www.fourmilab.ch/cship/timedial.html

For coordination of activity and book keeping a universal time would be required. So official UEC time would either stick with GMT for historical reasons or use a Terra time as it is the seat of government.

Due to the key importance of business systems like Stanton would probably also be on the UTC but I think it would be much more immersive is smaller systems use a time based on the local inhabited world.

 

[Bruttle]

Light Time and Dark time may =/= Day and Night as humans metabolism is pretty locked to a 24 hour circadian rhythm.

If you start messing with day/night though, the circadian rhythm starts going wonky. Living up here in Alaska, I see that all the time. Some places up here it goes dark for weeks/months at a time. Down where I'm at though, the day-night cycle is more like 18 hours dark and 6 hours light in the middle of winter.

The summers are the exact opposite and some people cannot handle it at all. It leads to something they call "seasonal affective disorder". It sounds like mumbo-jumbo, but I assure you it is a real thing. I see it all the time up here. Most people realize the issue and leave quickly, but some try to stick it out and they look just miserable.

Then there are the explorers that caved up for a few months. They started sleeping longer and longer until they were sleeping for 30 hours or so. The usual mental issues followed (depression, melancholy, etc.). The oddest part is how they thought they had spent much less time underground. The lady (they were in separate caves) thought it was 2 weeks sooner. The guy thought it was 2 months earlier that it was by the time he left his cave. Article here: http://gizmodo.com/humans-who-lived-in-caves-to-study-isolation-slept-for-1741583871

The reason that I know all of this though, is because I have a sleep disorder based on a circadian rhythm malfunction. My circadian rhythm is based on longer than 24 hours. It's called "non 24 hour sleep wake disorder" and is fairly common in blind people since they don't have the sun to set their biological clock to. Of course, it happens occasionally in non-blind people too. People like me.

So realistically, in the real world, there will be some serious issues if we actually became a space faring race. I'm sure there would be quite a few, but sleep disorders would be one of them. The resulting psychological issues would show up as well. There would be "space insomnia" and "deep space depression" issues. No telling what our final circadian rhythm would turn out to be once we became decoupled from our sun.

 

[rogesh]

If you start messing with day/night though, the circadian rhythm starts going wonky. Living up here in Alaska, I see that all the time. Some places up here it goes dark for weeks/months at a time. Down where I'm at though, the day-night cycle is more like 18 hours dark and 6 hours light in the middle of winter.

The summers are the exact opposite and some people cannot handle it at all. It leads to something they call "seasonal affective disorder". It sounds like mumbo-jumbo, but I assure you it is a real thing. I see it all the time up here. Most people realize the issue and leave quickly, but some try to stick it out and they look just miserable.

Then there are the explorers that caved up for a few months. They started sleeping longer and longer until they were sleeping for 30 hours or so. The usual mental issues followed (depression, melancholy, etc.). The oddest part is how they thought they had spent much less time underground. The lady (they were in separate caves) thought it was 2 weeks sooner. The guy thought it was 2 months earlier that it was by the time he left his cave. Article here: http://gizmodo.com/humans-who-lived-in-caves-to-study-isolation-slept-for-1741583871

The reason that I know all of this though, is because I have a sleep disorder based on a circadian rhythm malfunction. My circadian rhythm is based on longer than 24 hours. It's called "non 24 hour sleep wake disorder" and is fairly common in blind people since they don't have the sun to set their biological clock to. Of course, it happens occasionally in non-blind people too. People like me.

So realistically, in the real world, there will be some serious issues if we actually became a space faring race. I'm sure there would be quite a few, but sleep disorders would be one of them. The resulting psychological issues would show up as well. There would be "space insomnia" and "deep space depression" issues. No telling what our final circadian rhythm would turn out to be once we became decoupled from our sun.

That is realy interesting but how do you know that you are out of sinc?

And couldn't you just let's say imitate the day/night circle by the use of uv light in your ship? or with dimming the lights to indicate that it is "sleep time"? Or just set alarms xD

 

[mromutt]

There is only one true time here, beer o'clock.

 

[Capt_Baldi]

There is only one true time here, beer o'clock.

:beers::beers::beers::beers::beers::beers::beers: Amen brother! :beers::beers::beers::beers::beers::beers::beers:

 

[Bruttle]

That is realy interesting but how do you know that you are out of sinc?

And couldn't you just let's say imitate the day/night circle by the use of uv light in your ship? or with dimming the lights to indicate that it is "sleep time"? Or just set alarms xD

The whole thing started when I was 13. I thought I just had insomnia and left it at that. Later on in my early 20's I worked a seasonal job for a few years. I would work all summer and take the entire winter off. During that time, was when I found out what the real issue was. If I kept to a 28 hour schedule, I slept amazing. With no work to hold me to regular time, I was able to allow my days to be what they wanted to be. It was amazing.

For ships, that would probably be the way to make it work. You could just hold yourself to a 24 hour schedule artificially. It's interesting that you bring up UV lights too. Since that has actually been prescribed up here in Alaska to combat seasonal affective disorder. Usually, the doc will prescribe a tanning light and vitamin D (i think that's the one). This helps with the melatonin and serotonin issues that come with not seeing the sun for long periods.

 

[rogesh]

The whole thing started when I was 13. I thought I just had insomnia and left it at that. Later on in my early 20's I worked a seasonal job for a few years. I would work all summer and take the entire winter off. During that time, was when I found out what the real issue was. If I kept to a 28 hour schedule, I slept amazing. With no work to hold me to regular time, I was able to allow my days to be what they wanted to be. It was amazing.

For ships, that would probably be the way to make it work. You could just hold yourself to a 24 hour schedule artificially. It's interesting that you bring up UV lights too. Since that has actually been prescribed up here in Alaska to combat seasonal affective disorder. Usually, the doc will prescribe a tanning light and vitamin D (i think that's the one). This helps with the melatonin and serotonin issues that come with not seeing the sun for long periods.

I read an article some time ago about how to "set your inner clock" . It was there that I read that it's the sunrays that help adjusting it. can't exactly remember how they play in but it was something about the uv in it. Yes it is the d. That's what they prescribe for the winter depression here

 

[DirectorGunner]

This was a highly upvoted thread earlier this week on Reddit regarding this topic.

Here are some relevant highly upvoted quotes

Because traveling slower than lightspeed would expose the colonists to time dilation any universal calendar would make no sense.

There is no way to travel faster than light and even if there was a way there would be no simultaneity because of Special Relativity.

So probably every system will have their own calendar and time system.

Think of how two star systems would communicate. They would beam a signal from one system to another which would travel the speed of light. Alpha Centauri, the closest star system to us, is 4.37 light-years away. So it would take 4.37 years for a signal from earth to reach Alpha Centauri and another 4.37 years to get a response.

There would be no clock that could keep consistent time across star systems.

Travelling to the star systems would cause a lot of time dilation which just means that as you travel close to the speed of light time goes slower. So if you travelled anywhere at close to the speed of light, your clock would become out of sync with the clocks back on Earth.

The best that we could have would be just using Earths time frame ie days months years and scaling it accordingly to other planets. One would have to adjust for the aforementioned time delay.

However, in a reality where Data Transfer is instant and synchronized like in Star Citizen (at least from the eyes of the players) I suppose they'd probably still be using seconds, minutes and hours in a clock with as many hours as a day. Light Time and Dark time may =/= Day and Night as humans metabolism is pretty locked to a 24 hour circadian rhythm.

Just food for thought. Let's have some thinking fun.

Time measure is based on a perceived constant. rotations and orbit path of earth in relation to our sun (which isn't a true constant).

The universe (if accurate) is expanding at an (accelerated) rate of:

the expansion of the universe has been measured using redshift to derive Hubble's Constant: H0 = 67.15 ± 1.2 (km/s)/Mpc. For every million parsecs of distance from the observer, the rate of expansion increases by about 67 kilometers per second.

let's say we go with a base10 measurement for time.
A decimal second (base10) is 0.864 seconds. If I did my basic math right (67.15*0.864) that's 58.0176 Km's per decimal second.
Using redshift instruments... for neighboring galaxies, these neighboring galaxies could use this larger perceived constant as a new measurement for time. Where each incremental increase in acceleration could be considered a "year". EG it's star date 58017625431... where tomorrow will be 58017625432.

BUT... it's all relative, and there's hypothesis that state galaxies can eventually travel faster than light (and essentially die thereafter) from each other.

So.. we need to look elsewhere for a variable that evolves at a constant rate. And that would be radioactive decay (AFAIK, could possibly be relative as well). Or something discovered within the quantum mechanics field or emerging discoveries evolving the standard model of physics that would allow constant rate measurements regardless of time distortions.

So let's say we're in a time distortion like in the episode of SG1 where there replicators get trapped on their planet in the time bubble.
The readings would seem to FLY showing that their time is moving very slow in relation to the constant. (time distortion detected).
Or vis versa, the readings seem to stop increasing incrementally... time for you is moving VERY fast in relation to the constant.

This would be the ideal time measurement system for galactic travel, with meta-data with each incremental increase to document time dilation along your flight path. Which you can then use for more calculations.

 

[rogesh]

Also about the atomic clocks couldn't you just have one that sends the time via quantum entanglement? As far as I know it's instant that way and it reaches theoretically everywhere......

 

[Metsuro]

Also about the atomic clocks couldn't you just have one that sends the time via quantum entanglement? As far as I know it's instant that way and it reaches theoretically everywhere......

Ya, but then we'd have after than light communication. Which would be we'd have a universal internet/web. Which means data management would be all over the place. Which hackers and the like would be trying to get.

 

[Tiger]

Wow. Very informative. I have nothing profound to say about time but all I know that one day I will run out of time and die.
Hopefully when time runs out for me I will die as a old warrior upright and strong .

 

[rogesh]

Which would be we'd have a universal internet/web. Which means data management would be all over the place. Which hackers and the like would be trying to get.

Huh? You need two entangled atoms so I don't know how you would be able to "hack" into such a connection since there is no "transmission" that we can hijack... It just magically reacts to the other atoms change in spin (quantum physics is weird like that).
But if I'm wrong correct me. It's just dangerous half knowledge I'm using

Edit :yeah it is faster than light. Apparently it is possible like that....

 

[Metsuro]

Huh? You need two entangled atoms so I don't know how you would be able to "hack" into such a connection since there is no "transmission" that we can hijack... It just magically reacts to the other atoms change in spin (quantum physics is weird like that).
But if I'm wrong correct me. It's just dangerous half knowledge I'm using

Edit :yeah it is faster than light. Apparently it is possible like that....

If you want end point to end point it wouldn't be the internet. So to use quantom entanglement to for an internet. You'd use each pair to connect hubs. Then this hub would be a switch moving the data. You as the end consumer arn't going to get 100x of the pairs to talk to each station one at a time. You'd want a single pair to connect to the "internet" which means pirates could then go to said hub and attach at the middle points. Which is something that can be done today as well.

 

[rogesh]

If you want end point to end point it wouldn't be the internet. So to use quantom entanglement to for an internet. You'd use each pair to connect hubs. Then this hub would be a switch moving the data. You as the end consumer arn't going to get 100x of the pairs to talk to each station one at a time. You'd want a single pair to connect to the "internet" which means pirates could then go to said hub and attach at the middle points. Which is something that can be done today as well.

OK I understand that. But what does it have to do with timekeeping? I mean I was talking about instant transmission from an atomic clock to the ship so it can keep the time correctly (because of the relativity of time to speed thing). I wonder though if the same thing would happen (that the faster you travel the slower your time compared to the other slower traveling clock).