Greengiant506
Admiral
Stay safe folks, my hearts out to those affected!
Vegas shooting (NSFW VIDEO AND IMAGES!)
- Thread starter Montoya
- Start date
makute
Space Marshal
Just saw it the news. My most sincere condolences to the victims and their families.
ISIS has claimed authority, which is obviously bullshit. Does it seems like a suicide-killing to me? You know, when suicides don't want to go alone?
ISIS has claimed authority, which is obviously bullshit. Does it seems like a suicide-killing to me? You know, when suicides don't want to go alone?
In my opinion, it is far more likely that this was caused by the 1920's Prohibitionists than ISIS. Everybody knows that where there is country music, there is plenty of beer on hand. When the beer runs out, the party ends.
While I presently don't know why this person chose to do this, I am quite curious as to what it was. Generally, people who do these sorts of things have some sort of reasoning behind their actions even if they don't make sense to anybody else.
I live in Las Vegas
All my family has been confirmed safe, some facebook friends unknown but luckily it seems most people I know in person wasn't at this festival.
Couple of updates:
58 maybe 59 confirmed killed 515 injured
4 died during operation to stabilize at UMC hospital.
Mixed reports of number of AR rifles Paddock had in his room, some say 10, 19, or 20.
A hammer like device was used to break the window
Paddock had surveillance equipment that he used to monitor the casino hallway outside his room, when first responding security guard came to investigate Paddock opened his door and opened fire on the guard and shot him. Don't know if guard lived or not yet. This info was per an expert guest on channel 8 news that claimed his sources told him this.
Enough people carry in Nevada (it's almost like Texas) that if this took place on the ground, many of the off duty cops and civilians and x-military could have returned fire. But because this took place from the 36th floor (IIRC), at that elevation for the concert, there was nowhere to really hide to not be in the line of fire according to experts who've been on local news. Also returning fire without a rifle would have been extremely difficult from the ground.
I don't believe in taking away gun rights in this State. I own a pistol, which I don't carry. It's too big... H&K Mark 23.
But perhaps solution could be to screen baggage at all major casinos for explosives and firearms. Anything beyond a pistol should not, in my opinion, be allowed in a casino.
All my family has been confirmed safe, some facebook friends unknown but luckily it seems most people I know in person wasn't at this festival.
Couple of updates:
58 maybe 59 confirmed killed 515 injured
4 died during operation to stabilize at UMC hospital.
Mixed reports of number of AR rifles Paddock had in his room, some say 10, 19, or 20.
A hammer like device was used to break the window
Paddock had surveillance equipment that he used to monitor the casino hallway outside his room, when first responding security guard came to investigate Paddock opened his door and opened fire on the guard and shot him. Don't know if guard lived or not yet. This info was per an expert guest on channel 8 news that claimed his sources told him this.
Enough people carry in Nevada (it's almost like Texas) that if this took place on the ground, many of the off duty cops and civilians and x-military could have returned fire. But because this took place from the 36th floor (IIRC), at that elevation for the concert, there was nowhere to really hide to not be in the line of fire according to experts who've been on local news. Also returning fire without a rifle would have been extremely difficult from the ground.
I don't believe in taking away gun rights in this State. I own a pistol, which I don't carry. It's too big... H&K Mark 23.
But perhaps solution could be to screen baggage at all major casinos for explosives and firearms. Anything beyond a pistol should not, in my opinion, be allowed in a casino.
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I live in Las Vegas and know people affected by the shooting. Please keep their families in your prayers and yes please donate blood no matter where you live. The blood banks out here are turning people away because they cannot handle the volume of people donating blood. The LVMPD has started a Go Fund Me page for victims families if you would prefer to help monetarily.
What can one say at a time like this? Everything I write seems to not be enough. My heart is breaking for the friends and families who've lost someone dear to then, a loved one. Please stay safe my friends. And give your loved ones and extra hug tonight. Because you can. And because the world needs a we bit more love and a lot less senseless hate.
I live in Texas & my girlfriend lives in North Las Vegas. I've been in & through many of the casinos & it is my opinion that the most dangerous things that should be allowed into them (other than the personal safety devices carried by those trained & authorized to do so) are wickedly talented minds skilled in the various games within people with penchants for Bloody Mary drinks. (or other favorite legal beverage) At which point, the only killings going on are the winnings or losings of financial assets.
This is why they need to make more strict laws in the states concerning guns. When someone can just walk into a gun shop and buy weapons of this magnitude legally stuff like this is bound to happen. I don't disagree people shouldn't be allowed to have guns but guns like that no way. Guns like that belong on gun ranges under 2 person integrity. I'm so glad in japan no one can own a gun that makes situations like this nearly impossible to be done with just 1 sole person.
At the very least.. if he bought 20 something AR rifles (last I hear on the news he had two tripods setup to shoot from on each side of the suite)... that should have sent up red flags in a database somewhere. I know a couple people who own ARs in LV.. but they don't own more than a couple and they stay locked up in heavy duty safes.
They wouldn't even have to ban having multiple rifles and multiple magazines. If they're screened, then they can ask them some questions and call the police. I could see a Federal Firearm Licensed dealer travailing to one of the big gun shows in Vegas hauling all his merchandise up to the room with him when it isn't at the booth so nobody steals anything. Conversely I could see the possibility of someone from out of town buying all that at one of those shows and storing it in their room with someone always there so somebody can't just hot-wire their car and steal roughly $22,000-$30,000 worth of rifles, magazines, and ammo. That's all possibility, but not any bit common since bulk orders like that would probably be shipped to a local FFL dealer for pick up, and most people don't buy quantities like that at gun shows from my experience. I've never seen what vendors at gun shows do with their merchandise after hours, but if it's not protected by armed guards on the convention floor then you bet your ass it's getting locked in a safe somewhere or protected by armed guards elsewhere. Like their armed employees in their hotel room.I live in Las Vegas
All my family has been confirmed safe, some facebook friends unknown but luckily it seems most people I know in person wasn't at this festival.
Couple of updates:
58 maybe 59 confirmed killed 515 injured
4 died during operation to stabilize at UMC hospital.
Mixed reports of number of AR rifles Paddock had in his room, some say 10, 19, or 20.
A hammer like device was used to break the window
Paddock had surveillance equipment that he used to monitor the casino hallway outside his room, when first responding security guard came to investigate Paddock opened his door and opened fire on the guard and shot him. Don't know if guard lived or not yet. This info was per an expert guest on channel 8 news that claimed his sources told him this.
Enough people carry in Nevada (it's almost like Texas) that if this took place on the ground, many of the off duty cops and civilians and x-military could have returned fire. But because this took place from the 36th floor (IIRC), at that elevation for the concert, there was nowhere to really hide to not be in the line of fire according to experts who've been on local news. Also returning fire without a rifle would have been extremely difficult from the ground.
I don't believe in taking away gun rights in this State. I own a pistol, which I don't carry. It's too big... H&K Mark 23.
But perhaps solution could be to screen baggage at all major casinos for explosives and firearms. Anything beyond a pistol should not, in my opinion, be allowed in a casino.
All that said, having a couple boxes or duffel bags full of loaded magazines would raise an eyebrow and warrant some questions since you're either wanting to be prepared to defend against multiple attackers or attack multiple/many people.
Some people might say it's being paranoid, but really it's realizing the state of things and reacting accordingly to look out for potential dangers. Like looking both ways when crossing a street.
There's something called Cooper's Color Code for Situational Awareness. It's got 4 color coded states. White, Yellow, Orange, and Red.
In Condition White you are completely unaware of any danger and not looking for any potential danger. You are in Condition White when you are asleep/unconscious, or are unfamiliar with the concept of being situationally aware. Someone walking down the street absorbed with their phone is in condition white since they're oblivious to their surroundings. They could easily get hit by a car or be an easy target to be stabbed and robbed.
Condition Yellow is when you realize that you should pay some attention to your surroundings and be situationally aware. You are relaxed and calm, but you make a habit of checking for danger and if anything is odd, out of place, or suspicious. Like looking both ways before crossing a street. Like a deer sicking it's head up and lazily looking around and pointing it's ears around every so often while it munches grass.
Condition Orange is when your common sense is tingling. You are suspicious about something. You might have heard something or seen something and you've got a bad feeling about it. You prepare for what danger you might think is about to happen, like telling the shady guy to stay back or backing off from a car that's gently weaving around it's lane.
Condition Red is when something bad happens. People that live in condition white will have no time to prepare to react to the situation and will find themselves confused and suddenly thrust into a dangerous situation.
Some people include a fifth code, Code Black. Depending on who you talk to some say Code Black is when you are in combat, and some say Code Black is when you panic or otherwise have a breakdown of physical or mental performance.
makute
Space Marshal
As most Europeans, my background with firearms is non-existent outside of movies and videogames. Not unlike most Europeans, I fully acknowledge the right to possess firearms (to an extent and under strict control). There have been hunters in my family. Poachers that needed to furtively carry a shotgun to feed his family when needed, so I see guns as tools and nothing more.
That said, do we really want a bunch of under-trained and scared people to be able to respond to a situation with deadly fire? I'm talking about civilians specifically, of course.
Tragedies like this are always so big and loud in the media. When they involve guns, they are immediately followed by people calling for more gun control. That's because it is far easier to blame the guns, than the person. The fully automatic weapons used in Las Vegas were illegal. Making more guns illegal to own would have changed nothing. To be honest, everyone is looking in the wrong direction.
Look back to 1963. John F. Kennedy started and successfully passed by congress the Community Mental Health Act. This did one major thing. It led to the shutdown of most mental institutions on a national level. Prior to this, there were over half a million people institutionalized in mental hospitals (out of less than 200 million US population at the time). Now, there are only about 1,500 housed (out of 325 million).
That means that back in 1963, 1 out of every 400 people were deemed a danger to themselves or others. Now, they are ALL on the streets. Many end up homeless or in prison. However, the vast majority just get re-released into the public. They threaten to kill someone, they get a scolding and are sent back into public. They talk about bombs, they get sent back into public. Many of them don't have criminal records. They often times seem normal 50-75% of the time. They hide among us. They hide their crazy.
I know this because I used to work for a mental health clinic. The strangest thing was watching a patient flip. Sometimes it's like a light switch. They are normal John Smith, next door neighbor one minute. Then turn into a raving lunatic the next. Their case workers knew there was danger there, but institutional regulations prevented them from taking action. They counseled, prescribed drugs, and released them back into public.
That's why I carry. I carry because the person standing next to me at the grocery store might be a serial killer. I carry because the system refuses to deal with a dangerously imbalanced person until they commit something like this. That's also why I will never back gun control. It doesn't address the problem. Gun violence occurs everywhere across the world, even in places where they are illegal to own. That's because a person that decides to become a murderer, does not care if the tool he uses to commit the one of the worst crimes possible is illegal to own.
Where I live, it takes around 15 minutes for law enforcement to arrive and deploy. Making guns illegal would only prevent people like me the chance to defend themselves and others from violence for that 15 minutes. It would not stop the violence from starting in the first place.
/$0.02
Look back to 1963. John F. Kennedy started and successfully passed by congress the Community Mental Health Act. This did one major thing. It led to the shutdown of most mental institutions on a national level. Prior to this, there were over half a million people institutionalized in mental hospitals (out of less than 200 million US population at the time). Now, there are only about 1,500 housed (out of 325 million).
That means that back in 1963, 1 out of every 400 people were deemed a danger to themselves or others. Now, they are ALL on the streets. Many end up homeless or in prison. However, the vast majority just get re-released into the public. They threaten to kill someone, they get a scolding and are sent back into public. They talk about bombs, they get sent back into public. Many of them don't have criminal records. They often times seem normal 50-75% of the time. They hide among us. They hide their crazy.
I know this because I used to work for a mental health clinic. The strangest thing was watching a patient flip. Sometimes it's like a light switch. They are normal John Smith, next door neighbor one minute. Then turn into a raving lunatic the next. Their case workers knew there was danger there, but institutional regulations prevented them from taking action. They counseled, prescribed drugs, and released them back into public.
That's why I carry. I carry because the person standing next to me at the grocery store might be a serial killer. I carry because the system refuses to deal with a dangerously imbalanced person until they commit something like this. That's also why I will never back gun control. It doesn't address the problem. Gun violence occurs everywhere across the world, even in places where they are illegal to own. That's because a person that decides to become a murderer, does not care if the tool he uses to commit the one of the worst crimes possible is illegal to own.
Where I live, it takes around 15 minutes for law enforcement to arrive and deploy. Making guns illegal would only prevent people like me the chance to defend themselves and others from violence for that 15 minutes. It would not stop the violence from starting in the first place.
/$0.02
This is a grey area for me. I am fully against anything that prevents gun ownership. However, I have to concede this point to you. I grew up around guns. I hunted. I went to the range with my dad on a regular basis. I was trained to use them safely. I even carried them professionally for a time. I am not the best shot, but I hit what I aim for in every situation I have found myself in.
I can't say the same for everyone I have taken to the range. Some couldn't hit the broad side of a barn and were positively unsafe when they first started. So with that said, I can see a potential need for a mandatory gun safety course (which many states require for a concealed weapon permit by the way). However, how many times have you heard of a self defense shooting resulting in unintentional casualties?
That's because, out of all the bad shooters I have seen, not a single one carried a concealed weapon.
I have an ambassador + guardian membership here
https://www.frontsight.com
It's in pahrump... if a fellow TESTie comes to Vegas I can take you with me as a guest to get trained how to properly use a firearm there, they do a background check before you can schedule time to get trained so you'd ofc have to pass that.... no bad guys allowed.
Also, Nevada is an open carry state, however most people want to conceal carry, to conceal carry you HAVE to take a test and get trained.
So the part of untrained people shooting back, if they do what they're supposed to do, they'll be properly trained.
One caveat is liability, civil liability risk is REALLY high, even if your self defense is justified.
So that risk needs to be weighed in the decision to carry or not.
I mean, one solution as a civilian is just avoid high risk areas/events. I no longer go to the strip for new years eve, I don't go to outdoor concerts anymore for over the last 5 years, I also avoid large crowds like the plague. I also try to stay aware of my environment and listen to my gut. It's saved my ass a few times, once from being hit by a car and another time for another situation, and another time for not getting on a plane that ended up having electrical problems and was grounded shortly after. LISTEN to your gut.. always. And stay aware of what's going on around you as best you can.
makute
Space Marshal
I apologize for derailing the thread. Our thoughts would be with the victims, but I find fascinating the polar positioning between UE and USA in regards of firearms and would like to have some answers first hand.
*Edit: For clarity, I'm talking here about gun control policies, not law enforcers.
I know a bit of USA History and Constitution, and the context of the Second Amendment. Wouldn't be a better solution to just ban guns completely and rely on the security forces for defense? It works for us.
As a father of two, I fully agree on protect our families, we have our share of scumbags at the other side of the pond too. But, is not that work for the Police? This is not the first time, and sadly will no be the last, that the System fails to prevent a bloodbath*.
*Edit: For clarity, I'm talking here about gun control policies, not law enforcers.
I know a bit of USA History and Constitution, and the context of the Second Amendment. Wouldn't be a better solution to just ban guns completely and rely on the security forces for defense? It works for us.
I've never heard of a "self defense shooting", succesful or not, but not every news about shootings get across so...
I take for granted that's a second nature for members of security forces, army, etc. Is the regular US civilian in this "alert mode" the whole time? I know how "parent mode" works. Taking care of my kids at the playground is a thing, but knowing that someone (everyone!) could carry a gun is crazy. Do you just asume everyone around is a sound, nice person? Or is it the opposite, and thus I carry a gun, just in case?
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It is difficult to get accurate statistics on how many crimes are prevented by someone carrying a firearm as it isn't like criminals call law enforcement to notify them they were going to commit a crime but changed their mind when they saw someone they suspected was armed.
However, instances in people, particularly women and elderly, having used firearms to protect themselves and family until law enforcement shows up is quite common in the USA, but the media rarely reports these unless they can spin the narrative to 'crazy old white guy massacred innocent kids... <that were tring robbing him and threatened to kill him>'.
Firearms have always been the great equalizer, used to fight the 'might makes right' crowd.
Most of the violent crime, particularly firearms related, in the USA is gang and drug related in major cities which also happen to have the strictest gun laws.
In countries with strict gun laws other means are used such as:
- knives: Such as the recent one in China killing 29 people
- bombs: Such as VBIEDs in the Middle East or the Mumbai bombing that killed 166 people
- vehicles: Such as the fairly recent terrorist attacks in Europe
It isn't the tool, it is the perpetrator(s) that need to be addressed.
However, instances in people, particularly women and elderly, having used firearms to protect themselves and family until law enforcement shows up is quite common in the USA, but the media rarely reports these unless they can spin the narrative to 'crazy old white guy massacred innocent kids... <that were tring robbing him and threatened to kill him>'.
Firearms have always been the great equalizer, used to fight the 'might makes right' crowd.
Most of the violent crime, particularly firearms related, in the USA is gang and drug related in major cities which also happen to have the strictest gun laws.
In countries with strict gun laws other means are used such as:
- knives: Such as the recent one in China killing 29 people
- bombs: Such as VBIEDs in the Middle East or the Mumbai bombing that killed 166 people
- vehicles: Such as the fairly recent terrorist attacks in Europe
It isn't the tool, it is the perpetrator(s) that need to be addressed.
DarthMatter
Space Marshal
Quickly to show my stance: I'm from a family of hunters in Sweden (7:th most guns per capita), we have strict gun-control laws and licensing-process. I see guns as a powerful tool and as all powerful tools capable of harm should only be used by people who have shown that they are capable of using them correctly. I'm pro gun control, not a gun ban.
As you say, a large part of the problem is mental-health, and that problem won't go away with more control. However, more control would make it harder for individuals who should not have guns to get them. As it is now (based on your example in the store), that guy next to you could be a serial-killer/lunatic with a gun. Stricter gun-control will not eliminate violence. But it can minimize the damage of violence. I'll try my luck and run from a man with a knife over trying to evade a bullet any day.
Also just wanted to mention that Australia went through a similar thing, restricted guns, and have not seen anything like that event (Port Arthur massacre) since. Drops in suicide was also seen after the regulations (my guess is that this comes from "in the moment" suicides being harder to do without a gun. You can be saved in a hospital from overdoses, but not from a missing back-skull). So there are more positive effects that may be hidden and even non-intentional.
Here.. this is going to be a LONG video playlist... though I think this is the preview playlist.. having a hard time finding the full videos
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzQdag29CSmYqG3SkfqYzoXN_XCff-gy9
Might be unlisted for the full videos.. I got them in emails but deleted the emails last month :/
All the (full) videos cover just about every scenario imaginable for civilians.
I'll link back if I can find the full videos...
here's some other ones from the same training facility
This above video confirms a lot of what's been talked about in this thread.
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Han Burgundy
Space Marshal
For this sort of thing, the kneejerk reactions from every side wears me the hell out. Europeans; You don't have to understand our affinity for guns. It is simply part of our culture, and one that we are very proud of. We don't go after YOU for your odd obsession with NON-ketchup related condiments, so lay off already.
You gotta get over it. When it comes to controlling guns with an all-out ban on certain models and other similar tactics, the problem simply comes down to a factor of numbers. The genie is already out of the bottle on 'assault weapons'. There are simply too many of them out there to effectively reclaim (Not to mention the vast number of owners who would rather have a shoot-out with police than be disarmed. That number is staggering, I promise you.)
People often forget that the second amendment isn't designed to save us from muggers or mass murderers at all. They aren't the point. It is designed to protect us from our own government if they decide to go full dystopia on us. In about three months, when the streets very well could be running red with the blood of rebelling Catalonians; Ask them if they had rather have been armed. I'd bet you'll hear them sounding quite American about the topic.
If the neighborhood police are allowed to have goddamn tanks, I should be allowed AT LEAST an 'assault rifle'. The overwhelming threat and capability of the US populous to launch an armed revolt is what keeps the oligarchy from over-reaching their bounds, and if that balance ever shifts; the common man is who will suffer. Never take your eye off of the big picture (Especially in a time where trust in the government is at an all-time low)
It's tragic what happened, but no law of man is infallible. If somebody wants a machine gun, they'll find one (Legal or not) in the USA. It's like finding a stray fry between the seatcracks of a fat guy's '98 honda accord. You're going to have A LOT down there to find if you bother to look. There is no magic spell to un-manufacture all of those weapons, and trying to wrench them from the populous by force would start a civil war overnight that has no defined front-lines. The United States of America would be shattered. If there is anything that humans are elegant at as a species, it's killing one another in imaginative ways. Talk to anyone who has worked at a prison.
The solution is to attack the issue directly. How do we protect large crowds of people in open spaces? Attacks on crowds are by no means an American-only issue, guns or not. There is no way to negate the threat entirely, just like there is no way to guarantee that an angry hobo won't stab me in the face on my way to my car in the morning. What I CAN do is reduce my threat by being aware and employing technology to assist in my awareness. Hind-sight is 20-20, but that is why it is such a good teacher. My immediate thought when processing this issue for myself was the possibility of arming drones with a technology called Boomerang, which is a device that will detect the direction of incoming gunfire and point it out to responders. If that drone was part of a network of other devices that could PHYSICALLY respond with force of SOME kind, then the duration of the attack could have been drastically reduced; thus saving lives. (Think of a drone carrying a canister of that safety foam from demolition man)
Didn't really expect to write a long rant, but those are my thoughts. Keep in mind, I'm just some random Yank trying to process a tragedy.
You gotta get over it. When it comes to controlling guns with an all-out ban on certain models and other similar tactics, the problem simply comes down to a factor of numbers. The genie is already out of the bottle on 'assault weapons'. There are simply too many of them out there to effectively reclaim (Not to mention the vast number of owners who would rather have a shoot-out with police than be disarmed. That number is staggering, I promise you.)
People often forget that the second amendment isn't designed to save us from muggers or mass murderers at all. They aren't the point. It is designed to protect us from our own government if they decide to go full dystopia on us. In about three months, when the streets very well could be running red with the blood of rebelling Catalonians; Ask them if they had rather have been armed. I'd bet you'll hear them sounding quite American about the topic.
If the neighborhood police are allowed to have goddamn tanks, I should be allowed AT LEAST an 'assault rifle'. The overwhelming threat and capability of the US populous to launch an armed revolt is what keeps the oligarchy from over-reaching their bounds, and if that balance ever shifts; the common man is who will suffer. Never take your eye off of the big picture (Especially in a time where trust in the government is at an all-time low)
It's tragic what happened, but no law of man is infallible. If somebody wants a machine gun, they'll find one (Legal or not) in the USA. It's like finding a stray fry between the seatcracks of a fat guy's '98 honda accord. You're going to have A LOT down there to find if you bother to look. There is no magic spell to un-manufacture all of those weapons, and trying to wrench them from the populous by force would start a civil war overnight that has no defined front-lines. The United States of America would be shattered. If there is anything that humans are elegant at as a species, it's killing one another in imaginative ways. Talk to anyone who has worked at a prison.
The solution is to attack the issue directly. How do we protect large crowds of people in open spaces? Attacks on crowds are by no means an American-only issue, guns or not. There is no way to negate the threat entirely, just like there is no way to guarantee that an angry hobo won't stab me in the face on my way to my car in the morning. What I CAN do is reduce my threat by being aware and employing technology to assist in my awareness. Hind-sight is 20-20, but that is why it is such a good teacher. My immediate thought when processing this issue for myself was the possibility of arming drones with a technology called Boomerang, which is a device that will detect the direction of incoming gunfire and point it out to responders. If that drone was part of a network of other devices that could PHYSICALLY respond with force of SOME kind, then the duration of the attack could have been drastically reduced; thus saving lives. (Think of a drone carrying a canister of that safety foam from demolition man)
Didn't really expect to write a long rant, but those are my thoughts. Keep in mind, I'm just some random Yank trying to process a tragedy.