[VIDEO] CIG wins small claims court case, no refund for you!

[sovapid]

Do you have a source on that?

The link to reddit, it is at the same time as the LTI/Hercules kerfuffle. Where he is talking about the latest "marketing gimmicks" and whatever (he is the OP. His reddit user name is firefly212

He might have posted something more specific. Don't judge me, but I occasionally read the refund sub reddit too. :slight_smile:


EDIT: More specific quote:

I don't like the direction marketing has taken. Though I support the project in general, this new turn of LTI only for new money adds to an already objectionable "warbond" practice and CCU limitations that devalue old money.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/8irk21/so_i_guess_this_is_what_it_has_come_to/

EDIT 2: another quote. and specifying that these are copy / pastes from his interactions with CIG. Most likely the ticketing system.

I appreciate your effort in this matter, and know that my account, over all the years and with all the little transactions and whatnot, is probably very complicated. I hope we can reach mutually amicable and fair terms and wish you the best. With the additional information coming out in recent days about the handling of "warbond" packages, it is clear now more than at the time of my original authoring of a refund request that we're just not growing in the same direction, and that I must have understood the fleet composition flexibility statements in a very different way than CIG intended them. I like those of you that I've met on an individual level, but as a company, I feel like no matter how much I pledged, or even if I were to pledge more next week, I will perpetually be worth less than someone to CIG than someone who has 50 bucks in their pocket, unless I do too. It isn't even a question of what I've done for CIG lately, but a tacit acknowledgement that unless I can do more than whatever I've already done, I don't matter and I won't matter. When I think of Star Citizen right now, I don't get that warm feeling of hope, and that I didn't care how long it was going to take, just that it would be there eventually... now, it just makes me sad when I think about it... the marketing devalues past contributions, and some of the posts from community management teams just seem downright hostile towards other backers.

 

[Bambooza]

The long evenings you and I spent talking about sausage.

Sounds like a sausage fest.

 

[Montoya]

Sounds like a sausage fest.

There was a lot of sausage.

 

[Tealwraith]

I like to melt some butter in a fry pan then throw in some coarse chopped onion. Once I've turned the onion a few times, I put bratwurst on top, then cover with sauerkraut, put a lid on it and let it cook. Mm mm mm. Best sausage ever, especially with boiled potatoes.

If you put money in a crowdfunding project and they take it and run, you should be able to go after them for fraud. If you put money in a crowdfunding project and you decide you want it back, you're the one being fraudulent. Might be worth destroying your reputation to save your life, but it's not something I'd do lightly. When CIG has to refund, that person is making it difficult to pay people who work there to feed their families. You might want to consider that. I'd say, yes, though, it's better to shortchange Sean Tracy than have my family go without food, clothing or shelter.

 

[Wolfy]

The answer didn't surprise me.

 

[Printimus]

NO SOUP FOR YOU! KITCHEN CLOSED!

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

Thank you, Glorious Leader!

Christ, medical bills... If a political party ever tried to privatize the NHS and change it from the pre-paid service it is (National Insurance is a tax we pay up front for free service later when we need it) and make it a pay on delivery service (one is actively trying) they'd be committing political suicide because the reality of it is: You get old, your use of the medical system goes into the sky. Who are most of the voters in the UK? Old people, because they have nothing better to do and the young don't give a shit. The maintenance services the NHS has to use were privatised, and it went from £10 of light bulbs and an hours wage to a maintencence man to replace the bulbs on a ward, no more than £30 in total, to £1300 for a private company to do exactly the same job... So yeah, either take that horse you rose in on and piss off or feel free to continue to dig your own grave because there'll be no coming back from that. (No pun intended health services har har har.)

But back to the point: Refunds for disabilities in regard to changing game-play during development.

Firstly, to make it clear, I do feel sympathy for the complainant in regard to their condition. I would not wish the illness on anyone.

So... how does having MS stop you from playing an FPS more than it stops you from playing a flight combat sim that requires as much fine aim as SC currently does? It may have been a while since you went into AC but that requires as much fine aim. Unless the guy had $4000 worth of Gladius missile boats, the argument just doesn't stack up. We have many ability impaired players in the community, including deaf people. Do they push for refund or use other things like visual prompt software? Use an aim-bot for FPS - Ask CIG if they could see their way to making a special edition with an aimbot included, just for you and other sufferers of MS... we are in alpha it's the right time to be asking for things like this.

As for LTI pushing people in to refunding because it's no longer on credit purchases? As for Store Credit purchases not having the same discount as fresh cash pushing people to refund? Credit is attached to money that no longer exists.

The funds they have supplied, in some cases as far back as 2012, are long long long gone or at best are allocated to the ship they originally pledged to. In the TOS it says the funds provided are to run the game AND create the pledge item. So lets say enough people pledged on the Herald to get it made, and it was - thats where that cash went. Well done, you now have a Herald. Then a new concept ship comes along like the Endeavor, and all those herald pledgers melt their herald and a few other ships, which were also made with the old funds, and used those credits to get the ship. As the money was already spent on the ships they melted, exactly what money is there to build the Endeavor if the credit purchases on it were attached to money that no longer exists?

The melt system was intended to allow old backers the ability to chop and change their fleet into what they want it to be. What it wasn't intended to be was to be a new-ship investment pool. Once you have $500 to $1000 in pledges, you could just melt whatever you have and get almost every-single concept that ever comes out. Kinda defeats the point of a crowd funder, but the people who wanted that - who used the exploit - are likely annoyed that their iWin option of collect 'em all in buyback now and choose the 'best' when the game launches has gone. "My old money is being disrespected!" Well, your $500 that you put in between 2012 and 2014 is now worth exactly shit. It's gone. You pledged on Ship X and you got Ship X or those funds are allocated to Ship X to be built, so grow up.

Thats my take on it. But then sometimes I'm a bitter dude.

 

[Crymsan]

My sympathy with someone who requests a refund comes down to those who backed at the start based on release dates (projected) for several years ago. On that basis CIG has no delivered.

 

[Semperviren]

 

[CosmicTrader]

I watched 90% of the video......Can I get a Refund?
Medical reason. My side hurts from laughing to hard.........

 

[Agent_Mothman]

Do you have a source on that?

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/8irk21/so_i_guess_this_is_what_it_has_come_to

 

[Montoya]

But back to the point: Refunds for disabilities in regard to changing game-play during development.

I think I need to update my argument here based upon more recent information posted in this thread.

- He spent $4500 to play a single player game? Consensus is no. The ships you buy in the PU are not available in SQ42, so to claim that he wants out because of some feature in SQ42 that we knew was there for years is not the reason. Turns out the actual reason (or at least the final straw) was that the Hercules warbond sale give cash buyers a steep discount. He got pissed that cash buyers get better deals and decided he had enough.

It seems it was not simply one issue, but a combination of everything, game being delayed, slow progress, sprinkle in some declining health issues and he simply wants out.

 

[Crymsan]

Lets be honest here to, if you have LTI ships bought with cash (and you can fiddle that a bit) you can sell at least some of them on the grey market. I would defiantly have gone down that route first and if given time liquidated that way.

 

[Mich Angel]

Basically he wanted to eat the bread and keep it for later....
(wont go in to how that might work, but don't see that happen in a good way)

This is as stupid as people who think their right to freedom of speech work on internet... :joy::joy::joy:

It's the creator of a internet page (or server provider) who decide what rules apply to a internet page not the law..
If you accept them when signing on a page... well...
You don't need a IQ higher than 60 to figure out what goes..

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

I think I need to update my argument here based upon more recent information posted in this thread.

- He spent $4500 to play a single player game? Consensus is no. The ships you buy in the PU are not available in SQ42, so to claim that he wants out because of some feature in SQ42 that we knew was there for years is not the reason. Turns out the actual reason (or at least the final straw) was that the Hercules warbond sale give cash buyers a steep discount. He got pissed that cash buyers get better deals and decided he had enough.

It seems it was not simply one issue, but a combination of everything, game being delayed, slow progress, sprinkle in some declining health issues and he simply wants out.

Okay, cool.... so.... did they use all of those reasons in court or just the disability one?

 

[Montoya]

did they use all of those reasons in court or just the disability one?

In court were the reasons Derek Smart gave him to list.

CIG stealing your money, not delivering a product by a promised date, Chris Roberts is the devil etc.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

In court were the reasons Derek Smart gave him to list.

CIG stealing your money, not delivering a product by a promised date, Chris Roberts is the devil etc.

Thank you for the additional information, Glorious Leader :)

 

[BUTUZ]

I think it's about time the law defined what kickstarter actually means. You are not buying a product. You are donating $4000 towards a promise of creating something awesome in the future. No refunds, and be prepared to lose your investment if the company goes bust or whatever.

Now if the company doesn't go bust, but just changes its direction and uses all your $4000 to pay for, ultra expensive frosted glass doors in one of it's studios, then....well I guess the legal system is the only way forward?!?!

 

[Wolfy]

I think it's about time the law defined what kickstarter actually means. You are not buying a product. You are donating $4000 towards a promise of creating something awesome in the future. No refunds, and be prepared to lose your investment if the company goes bust or whatever.

Now if the company doesn't go bust, but just changes its direction and uses all your $4000 to pay for, ultra expensive frosted glass doors in one of it's studios, then....well I guess the legal system is the only way forward?!?!

Frankly most of the time it will fall under a non-tax exempt donation due to the way the ToS contract with RSI is written up. The curious thing is since a product is delivered at the end whether the UCC will override this donation or in what way that will direct customer rights when dealing with the product... I may have to see if my father (former lawyer for 23 years) wants to look at this haha.

 

[DirectorGunner]

You are donating...... lose your investment

My friend, these two words are oxymorons in context of the same subject.
To achieve what you desire, to be interpreted as donation, you can not receive ANYTHING of monetary value for your donation from who you are donating to.
The IRS may classify it as a gift or better. But you can't have it both ways. I wouldn't give to the Red Cross and expect medical supplies shipped to my home as an incentive. The incentive is, I'm saving lives. It is a non-monetary incentive for me which was not marketed as Get X for Y. That's the key, non-monetary PERSONAL incentives that are not peddled to you as getting something for something else as a trade does.

A typical kickstarter, is not the same as donating to say red cross, IF you receive anything of value in return.

A thank you letter would be okay as it probably doesn't have monetary value.
But say... an incentive laptop for spending say $20,000 as a contribution to a product development campaign?
That is commerce under the guise of "supporting something you believe in".

You could do the same thing with Walmart or Albertsons shopping. Say 10% of all sales support red cross this month. It gets more people in their stores for a good cause, but it's still commerce. That may be hard to swallow... let me try another example.
Say I develop a software, in order to fund development, I give incentives such as spend X to get 1 license, and spend Y to get 1 Pro license, etc etc. What I am doing, is actually pre-selling a product to you before it's developed. You don't know for sure if your "purchase" (let's face it, we may think it's a contribution, but in this situation, it's an actual purpose because you accepted an offer and paid for the offer) is going to be used properly to fund development.. but that is the risk of kickstarter / fundraising campaigns.

Let's break it down even further... bottom line.. if you GIVE without getting anything in return, you are a beautiful spirit as that is called a donation.

Donation: a free contribution eg Gift. Gift: something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation
An incentive, is compensation. It is called consideration in legalese. The incentive is also an offer.

So here's how we solve this....
Everyone who believes and really wants to have ONLY donated to the development of Star Citizen.
Gift me all your ship packages and ships... and you will then have truly donated to the development of this amazing game.