Webb Space Telescope Takes Flight

[Ayeteeone]

Shocking. Stunning. The whole world of astrophysics is afire.

I recall the final exam in first year physics in high school asked the student to solve for the critical mass of the universe that would determine whether it would eventually slow enough to collapse again into a "big crunch" or continue to expand forever. The question was whether the universe's constituent parts had "escape velocity" or if gravity would slow its expansion enough that eventually it would reverse direction and collapse due to its own gravity. Yes, this is simple first year physics kids can do.

In 1993, what we found is this scenario is completely in error. The universe is not slowing in its expansion, but rather; some force is pushing its parts apart ever faster in defiance of gravity. Physicists immediately called this "dark energy" (not "dark matter, that's something different) and set the problem aside, postulating some anti-gravity type force we're not familiar with. Still, we knew then what we thought was wrong. Turns out it is more wrong than we could have imagined.

Enter JWST. Looks like EVERYTHING we have thought about the universe is completely wrong. Great time to become an astrophysicist, as they're not all so damn cocky now.

View: https://youtu.be/vAxgaTvYA7Y

I think that it's awesome to have scientists actually doing science instead of hamming it up in public like they are the holders of secret knowledge untouchable by the mere mortal.. or was that religion.. maybe politicians?? Can't really tell them apart these days.

Having said that, this video was the science equivalent of the National Enquirer; I felt like puking after watching it and now know to never go near that channel again.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

Naff, that link is a vague sales pitch to get our taxes. I expected something big by now. The LIGO for instance was not a disappointment.

I can't prove anything one way or another so all I can do is quote a wiser man than I:

"Well 'y know thats just, like, your opinion man."
Mr. Lebowski, 1998.

 

[Vavrik]

Having said that, this video was the science equivalent of the National Enquirer; I felt like puking after watching it and now know to never go near that channel again.

The owner of the channel actually says that of all his videos.
"Our channel is purely made for entertainment purposes, based on facts, rumors, and fiction."
(it's here

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2jAc3ifBNVT03iLjXSRPwQ/about

)

It's not meant to be factual, it's meant to be click bait, because that's how you get paid on YouTube.

 

[Ayeteeone]

The owner of the channel actually says that of all his videos.
"Our channel is purely made for entertainment purposes, based on facts, rumors, and fiction."
(it's here

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2jAc3ifBNVT03iLjXSRPwQ/about

)

It's not meant to be factual, it's meant to be click bait, because that's how you get paid on YouTube.

I was not wise enough to check that beforehand; it is a regret.

 

[Vavrik]

I was not wise enough to check that beforehand; it is a regret.

I almost always do nowadays. You can gain back lost knowledge, and you can learn something new that changes your mind about something you thought you knew... but you can't get back neurons that failed and died because you watched something on YouTube. Those are gone forever.

 

[Bambooza]

I almost always do nowadays. You can gain back lost knowledge, and you can learn something new that changes your mind about something you thought you knew... but you can't get back neurons that failed and died because you watched something on YouTube. Those are gone forever.

Which is why one needs to drink more and hang out on these forms so that they to no longer worry about the state of things but live simple happy lives.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

Which is why one needs to drink more and hang out on these forms so that they to no longer worry about the state of things but live simple happy lives.

Advice for life! I've been following this almost every day since 2016, and have never been better.

 

[Sky Captain]

Which is why one needs to drink more and hang out on these forms so that they to no longer worry about the state of things but live simple happy lives.

*Smashes two beers on his forehead.* *Then calculates the gravitational constant of the universe.* Now, what was the name of this telescope again?

 

[Rear_Intruder]

I was very excited for the JWST.
Ten months on from the first science from JWST, what have we seen?
Images of things we already knew about.... Yep lots of them.
Images of structures that should not exist that close in time to the big bang with no conclusive commentary on what or why.... Yep lots of that.
IMHO currently its a let down and yet they want more money to build a bigger one.
Theoretical physicists have no more idea than we do about what the universe is, or is made of. I read an article recently that said they even may got the structure of the Milky Way wrong, just two spiral arms?

 

[Bambooza]

I was very excited for the JWST.
Ten months on from the first science from JWST, what have we seen?
Images of things we already new about.... Yep lots of them.
Images of structures that should not exist that close in time to the big bang with no conclusive commentary on what or why.... Yep lots of that.
IMHO currently its a let down and yet they want more money to build a bigger one.
Theoretical physicists have no more idea than we do about what the universe is, or is made of. I read an article recently that said they even may got the structure of the Milky Way wrong, just two spiral arms?

That's the best part structures that shouldn't exist do which says out models are wrong. That we need to reevaluate our understanding and in fact wrong answers do so much more to advance our understanding then getting it right.

But I understand your frustration in how long it has been with out any updates and I can only imagine how much excitement and furious debate is happening while we wait outside hearing nothing.

 

[Radegast74]

I was very excited for the JWST.
Ten months on from the first science from JWST, what have we seen?
Images of things we already new about.... Yep lots of them.
Images of structures that should not exist that close in time to the big bang with no conclusive commentary on what or why.... Yep lots of that.
IMHO currently its a let down and yet they want more money to build a bigger one.
Theoretical physicists have no more idea than we do about what the universe is, or is made of. I read an article recently that said they even may got the structure of the Milky Way wrong, just two spiral arms?

That's odd, every weeks or so I read about some really cool new discovery...in fact, just a couple days ago there was this:

https://www.space.com/james-webb-space-telescope-comet-water

That's the best part structures that shouldn't exist do which says out models are wrong. That we need to reevaluate our understanding and in fact wrong answers do so much more to advance our understanding then getting it right.

But I understand your frustration in how long it has been with out any updates and I can only imagine how much excitement and furious debate is happening while we wait outside hearing nothing.

Exactly this ^ ... it seems that a lot of the recent discoveries by the JWST are somewhat specialized and esoteric knowledge. They are very meaningful to the highly specialized researchers, but might not seem that exciting to us average excuse me, above average TESTies.

 

[Rear_Intruder]

That's odd, every weeks or so I read about some really cool new discovery...in fact, just a couple days ago there was this:

https://www.space.com/james-webb-space-telescope-comet-water

As I said nothing breath-takingly new to see
I though it was accepted that lots of the earths water came from comets. In 1986 The probe Giotto discovered water on Haleys Comet. In 2014 water detected on Ceres (largest object in the belt)

 

[Bambooza]

As I said nothing breath-takingly new to see
I though it was accepted that lots of the earths water came from comets. In 1986 The probe Giotto discovered water on Haleys Comet. In 2014 water on detected Ceres (largest object in the belt)

It was accepted but there was little proof. It's the dangers of not listing the limits of said knowledge. In this case it was accepted because it was the consensus as the most plausible but there was little way to prove or disprove the speculation. Even now it's more speculation then certainty. While the one comet located in the belt gives support to the idea it's still unknown how rare or common water is. And if it's found that water comets are exceedingly rare, ie we can detect them when they exist but we are not detecting many the a new theory as to earth's water will need to be formulated.

I think it all boils down to most of us not aware of what is well established and where the boundaries become increasingly uncertain. Like we know if we drop an apple it will fall towards the earth. As to why it falls we generally know it's mass attracts each other. But when you dig further it's pure speculation as to why mass attracts each other and at what speed and distance does this happen.

This is prevalent in all areas of science. From carbon dating ended up needing to be recalibration based upon tree ring dating in a given region to uranium lead or potassium argon dating while both have a well calculated half life both ratios when used to date something base it on a starting ratio that is a best guess.

 

[Rear_Intruder]

So in this instance (comet water) do you agree with me Bambooza? IE no new science from the JWST that has not been done before.

I understand the point about disproving our current models, and want to hear more about that, are the scientist being defensive maybe?

 

[Bambooza]

Well sort of. Before 2014 there was no direct proof of water in the astroid belt there was speculation as to its existence. Even after it was only possible to detect water discharge from Ceres which is the largest detected object in the belt but it was unsure where its water originated or how much.

JWST was able to show water on a comet in the belt which strengthens the theory of water being abundant.

So this bit of science while not ground breaking still moves our collective knowledge forward.

The reason I said sort of is that there is indeed being defensive and territorial in so much their battle for grants and ego. So you have both the need to sparkle and dazzle the general public to continue to get government funding. No one really wants to pay for retesting and verification or those tests that fail. So you get a lot of packing and ambiguous hypothesis that become formolized by the data collected. Then you have those who had a breakout discovery who now hinder others to remain relevant and funded by their being experts and needing their peer review to be accepted and funded.

 

[Radegast74]

So here is a bit of science that was made possible by the Webb Telecscope...note, the findings haven't been peer-reviewed yet, but holy cow! This is an amazing finding:

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2023/oct/02/jumbos-jupiter-mass-binary-objects-discovery-orion-nebula-new-astronomical-category

 

[Rear_Intruder]

Wikipedia says we first discovered such things 23 years ago.

So again not a ground breaking scientific discovery. I'm still disappointed with the JWST compared to the hype and my own hope.

Rogue planet - Wikipedia
Discovery[edit]
Isolated planetary-mass objects (iPMO) were first discovered in 2000 by the UK team Lucas & Roche with UKIRT in the Orion Nebula.[11] In the same year the Spanish team Zapatero Osorio et al. discovered iPMOs with Keck spectroscopy in the σ Orionis cluster.[10] The spectroscopy of the objects in the Orion Nebula was published in 2001.[21] Both European teams are now recognized for their quasi-simultaneous discoveries.[22] In the year 1999 the Japanese team Oasa et al. discovered objects in Chamaeleon I[23] that were spectroscopically confirmed years later in 2004 by the US team Luhman et al.[24]

In October 2023, astronomers, based on observations of the Orion Nebula with the James Webb Space Telescope, reported the discovery of pairs of rogue planets, similar in mass to the planet Jupiter, and called JuMBOs (short for Jupiter Mass Binary Objects).[9]

 

[Radegast74]

Wikipedia says we first discovered such things 23 years ago.

So again not a ground breaking scientific discovery. I'm still disappointed with the JWST compared to the hype and my own hope.

Rogue planet - Wikipedia
Discovery[edit]
Isolated planetary-mass objects (iPMO) were first discovered in 2000 by the UK team Lucas & Roche with UKIRT in the Orion Nebula.[11] In the same year the Spanish team Zapatero Osorio et al. discovered iPMOs with Keck spectroscopy in the σ Orionis cluster.[10] The spectroscopy of the objects in the Orion Nebula was published in 2001.[21] Both European teams are now recognized for their quasi-simultaneous discoveries.[22] In the year 1999 the Japanese team Oasa et al. discovered objects in Chamaeleon I[23] that were spectroscopically confirmed years later in 2004 by the US team Luhman et al.[24]

In October 2023, astronomers, based on observations of the Orion Nebula with the James Webb Space Telescope, reported the discovery of pairs of rogue planets, similar in mass to the planet Jupiter, and called JuMBOs (short for Jupiter Mass Binary Objects).[9]

But, *these* JuMBOs are *not* planets!

And, they aren't "rogue" ...

From the article:

Smaller free-ranging objects have occasionally been sighted, but it was unclear whether they had formed in situ or had been ejected from a planetary disc around another star. The latest observations are more challenging to explain because, out of the hundreds of roughly Jupiter-sized objects found, dozens are in binary pairs. “How can you throw two things out [of a star’s orbit] in a chaotic interaction and get them to stick back together again?” asked McCaughrean.

Also from the article, another great quote:

“Most of us don’t have time to get wrapped up in this debate about what is a planet and what isn’t a planet,” McCaughrean said. “It’s like my cat is a chihuahua-mass pet. But it’s not a chihuahua, it’s a cat.”

 

[Rear_Intruder]

One scientist in the article says " How can you throw two things out [of a star’s orbit] in a chaotic interaction and get them to stick back together again?
another says " The binary objects could have formed within a disc and then been kicked out as a pair "

Call then what you want but I am underwhelmed.

 

[Bambooza]

One scientist in the article says " How can you throw two things out [of a star’s orbit] in a chaotic interaction and get them to stick back together again?
another says " The binary objects could have formed within a disc and then been kicked out as a pair "

Call then what you want but I am underwhelmed.

It's ok to be underwhelmed. In someway these new images are much like the jump from 1080p to 4k. I still don't see what all the hype is about and it's years later.

In someways astronomy takes a staggering long time to come forward with any sort of new information. Then again it wasn't until recently we even had any sort of picture of what Pluto looked like. And with our current technology we will not know how many plants and moons orbit Alpha Centauri. Heck we don't even know if there are plants past Pluto in our own system.

So for now we have a huge canvas to paint how ever we want and create games like star citizen and books and movies that will in time be laughable wrong