Thanks for that, I waited a long time to see a good game arises. SC see to be my game!!! I invested allot in it so it better be good!!!
Dreams vs. Reality
- Thread starter ratfeast
- Start date
Han Burgundy
Space Marshal
When it comes to an early access title, the main thing required to keep the faith alive for the fanbase is communication from the Dev and VISIBLE progress. We have been dealing with a lot of folks having second thoughts because this year hasn't really been SUPER jam-packed with visible tech being rolled out. That being said, they have been doing a LOT of work under the hood and I believe that the release of 3.0 will do a lot to silence people's fears. The gamescom presentation alone did that for many, but some will reserve their relief for when they actually get to play with it themselves. Seeing is believing, and in 3.0; We about to see some shit.
Yeah, 3.0 is key, I'm not trying to freak anyone out, just myself. Thanks for the support guys!
I have actually spent quite a bit of time considering these points myself. Ultimately, I have come to two main conclusions. The first is that I have spent far more on other hobbies that no longer get used. For instance, I was a rock climber for a few years. That was more expensive than this. I got into woodworking for a while. The tools now sit idly in storage and they were also more expensive.
Video games are now my main hobby. So why should I regret spending a healthy chunk of money on that? I think that stems from the difference between owning physical goods vs. owning pixels. One feels like true ownership. You can walk over to it, touch it, work with it, and use it in the real world. The other is just pixels. You never get to touch it, but rather only look at it. Does that make it less valuable though? When it comes down to it, there is no issue with resale value. I could probably sell my account right now for a decent profit. Possibly even more after the 3.0 demo. I don't get less enjoyment from these pixels. I have had quite a lot of fun flying them around for hours. So why should I feel any different spending money on virtual hobbies than on real ones?
The second conclusion is about the state of the game. It is easy to get discouraged about the length of the development cycle. It is very easy to worry that this game will be one of the most expensive disasters in video game history. However, that (to me at least) is mainly due to looking forward at the finish line. We are all solidly focused on what this game is supposed to become. We see the promises and wonder if it is even possible.
What I settled on, is the current state of the game. I can name off dozens and dozens of games that I have purchased that have delivered less content on full commercial release. The last Call of Duty game I played was 9 hours to finish the single player mode, and then about a week in the lobby online game. I had rolled over a prestige level and I was done with it. Firewatch, 3 hours of gameplay with an ending that made me want to punch a kitten in the face. Brink, I am Alive, The Division, Duke Nukem Forever, and many more just never lived up to the cost of buying them. ...and don't even get me started on No Man's Sky. MMO's are no different lately. They have no content, tons of bugs, and use terms like "sandbox" as an excuse for not delivering a solid product. They let bugs sit there for years, while their cash shop is updated weekly.
If you look at Star Citizen though, just as it is, there is actually more content right now than some of those games. I have certainly had more fun playing the Alpha of this game than the commercial release of those. But then you look at things like the 3.0 demo, you see where the game is going. Most games would have released this, the current game. Maybe waiting for Star Marine in 2.6 before going full release. But this isn't those games. It has huge dreams. It is running full speed for a game that may very well redefine the standard by which all other games are judged.
I know I may sound like a fanboy. However, it has less to do with what Star Citizen promises and more to do with what the current game developers are continually trying to shove down our throats. This is the first fan funded game of this size. If it is successful, it wont just give us a great game that we will all play for years. It will also prove to the other developers that we are willing to pay for what we want. In a world full of content and quality devoid, money grabbing mmo's, we are proving that we want this. No more ftp scams. No more pay to win BS. We want this game. Now take our money and make it for us.
This is why I have zero issues buying internet spaceships...
Edit: Sorry for the wall of text. Kinda got into it for a minute there.
Video games are now my main hobby. So why should I regret spending a healthy chunk of money on that? I think that stems from the difference between owning physical goods vs. owning pixels. One feels like true ownership. You can walk over to it, touch it, work with it, and use it in the real world. The other is just pixels. You never get to touch it, but rather only look at it. Does that make it less valuable though? When it comes down to it, there is no issue with resale value. I could probably sell my account right now for a decent profit. Possibly even more after the 3.0 demo. I don't get less enjoyment from these pixels. I have had quite a lot of fun flying them around for hours. So why should I feel any different spending money on virtual hobbies than on real ones?
The second conclusion is about the state of the game. It is easy to get discouraged about the length of the development cycle. It is very easy to worry that this game will be one of the most expensive disasters in video game history. However, that (to me at least) is mainly due to looking forward at the finish line. We are all solidly focused on what this game is supposed to become. We see the promises and wonder if it is even possible.
What I settled on, is the current state of the game. I can name off dozens and dozens of games that I have purchased that have delivered less content on full commercial release. The last Call of Duty game I played was 9 hours to finish the single player mode, and then about a week in the lobby online game. I had rolled over a prestige level and I was done with it. Firewatch, 3 hours of gameplay with an ending that made me want to punch a kitten in the face. Brink, I am Alive, The Division, Duke Nukem Forever, and many more just never lived up to the cost of buying them. ...and don't even get me started on No Man's Sky. MMO's are no different lately. They have no content, tons of bugs, and use terms like "sandbox" as an excuse for not delivering a solid product. They let bugs sit there for years, while their cash shop is updated weekly.
If you look at Star Citizen though, just as it is, there is actually more content right now than some of those games. I have certainly had more fun playing the Alpha of this game than the commercial release of those. But then you look at things like the 3.0 demo, you see where the game is going. Most games would have released this, the current game. Maybe waiting for Star Marine in 2.6 before going full release. But this isn't those games. It has huge dreams. It is running full speed for a game that may very well redefine the standard by which all other games are judged.
I know I may sound like a fanboy. However, it has less to do with what Star Citizen promises and more to do with what the current game developers are continually trying to shove down our throats. This is the first fan funded game of this size. If it is successful, it wont just give us a great game that we will all play for years. It will also prove to the other developers that we are willing to pay for what we want. In a world full of content and quality devoid, money grabbing mmo's, we are proving that we want this. No more ftp scams. No more pay to win BS. We want this game. Now take our money and make it for us.
This is why I have zero issues buying internet spaceships...
Edit: Sorry for the wall of text. Kinda got into it for a minute there.
Still worth reading, your "wall of text", thanks for that.
So why do we complain about spending lots of money into a digital invest/hobby...?
Thats also one of my main points, pls. refer to my posts before. People accept it when you are spending thousands of bucks in a hobby which you physically own. I suggest, when I would sum up the money which I "invested" into my garden, I would faint within a second :D My father was a hunter and spent several thousands of DM (former German currency) into this hobby. Former childhood friends played LARP - hundreds and thousands of DM over the years. Friend of mine is a hobby photograph. Guess was his technical equipment (has) cost? And so on.
So why do we complain about spending lots of money into a digital invest/hobby...?
I hadn't thought about it like that, thanks for your wall of words. You too Sam.
This is more than just a game to me. This is something I had been dreaming about ever since I played the beta of Ultima Online. I imagined how cool would it be to have a space sim with a multi crewed ships. The game never came. When I saw this I was skeptical and for the most part had quit playing games. I lurked on the RSI site for about 6 months before I bought a package. Then a couple months later I joined TEST and have never looked back. Hell just the community here is worth every penny I have spent on this game.
I look at this as being more about the adventure and the dream than the actual destination. Hell who knows 6 months after go live I may get bored and stop playing. But I will have had a few years of fun getting there with a good group of people.
I look at this as being more about the adventure and the dream than the actual destination. Hell who knows 6 months after go live I may get bored and stop playing. But I will have had a few years of fun getting there with a good group of people.
Ok, im going to start typing, lets see where I end up.
GENERAL RANT
When I started following SC in mid 14, and backed in late 14. I was completely blown away by the idea of it, the scope and scale were amazing and everything Ive been wanting in a game for years. Thats why I got into it, thats why i've spent several hundered on this game already and will probably spend more. Because I think its going to be a great game and I want to support the development. And because i want more bigger better ships XD
I also spent the money on SC because Im getting sick, tired, fed up and frankly fucking furious about how bad games have been recently, all the recent CoDs for example, AAA games just seem to be getting worse and worse, with less and less effort going in, because people will buy them anyway. So the games get made cheap, sold expensive, and are terrible while the studios get rich. SC doesnt seem to be like that, they are using the money to make the game bigger and better. I pay 100nzd for CoD and maybe play 30 hours of it, and then buy X3TC for $20 and spend hundereds and hundereds of hours playing it.
Most games are made to a date, so development stops at a certain point and the game gets released, probably smaller and less well made than the devs were hoping. SC has gone completely the other way... "this is the game we want, we will work on it until it's ready" Which is cool if it gets a better game, but I do think there is a problem with this... the game will keep getting further and further pushed back and more and more features get added, and more and more development and R&D is done. Eventually peple just want to play the game and get sick of waiting, I go through cycles with SC, following every little piece of news and playing it every day, then getting bored and frustrated and leaving it alone for a few months.
THIS VIDEO
This video is pretty terrible, he goes through some real facts, his stuff on illfonic/star marine is probably accurate, and he is probably right about how CIG handled DSmart and escapist. He is also right about the website IMHO, its fucked, we al know it, and yes there is no reason to show the packages you cant buy. But The rest of the stuff he is just ranting about SC, it comes from a very negative slant and you can tell, he makes no effort to examine the other point of view... I really dont like when people make a video "explaining the controversy" and then just explain one side... Be objective about it, otherwise youre just a twat.
STAR CITIZEN
I want to play this game as CR describes it, And I think if anyone can make it its Chris. However I think the problem is, how long will he take to make it, the longer it takes the more often and louder the voices are going to be about feature creep and scam. Now, i know that the "feature creep" in SC is because they are now able to do so much more than they ever dreamed. And in regards to "scam" yea... no people can fuck off with that, if it was a scam sure as hell CIG would not have opened multiple studios around the world, paying hundereds of people, posting updates multiple times a week and discussing what they are doing on the forums every single day.
My fear is this, they are trying to do too much, There is some doubt as to making cry engine do all of this, but especially if you think what dozens of star systems with hundereds... thousands of AI characters is going to take, think of all the voice acting and animating and asset creation needed. My fear is it will either take too long, and/or the game as they describe it is simply not possible, and when it is released it wont live up to peoples expectations and people will lynch them over it.
I also think peoples hopes for this game may be too high... be careful what you hope for everyone.
MY SUGGESTIONS FOR CIG
First, fix the website, it badly badly needs fixing, its too confusing for new players, and the idea of $15000 fleet packages scares people off. So redo the website with a good solid FAQ and easy descriptions of what it is youre getting.
Second, get a proper tutorial in the game, its too difficult for new players, they have no idea what the fuck is going on or what they are doing... there needs to be an up to date working tutorial at each patch
GENERAL RANT
When I started following SC in mid 14, and backed in late 14. I was completely blown away by the idea of it, the scope and scale were amazing and everything Ive been wanting in a game for years. Thats why I got into it, thats why i've spent several hundered on this game already and will probably spend more. Because I think its going to be a great game and I want to support the development. And because i want more bigger better ships XD
I also spent the money on SC because Im getting sick, tired, fed up and frankly fucking furious about how bad games have been recently, all the recent CoDs for example, AAA games just seem to be getting worse and worse, with less and less effort going in, because people will buy them anyway. So the games get made cheap, sold expensive, and are terrible while the studios get rich. SC doesnt seem to be like that, they are using the money to make the game bigger and better. I pay 100nzd for CoD and maybe play 30 hours of it, and then buy X3TC for $20 and spend hundereds and hundereds of hours playing it.
Most games are made to a date, so development stops at a certain point and the game gets released, probably smaller and less well made than the devs were hoping. SC has gone completely the other way... "this is the game we want, we will work on it until it's ready" Which is cool if it gets a better game, but I do think there is a problem with this... the game will keep getting further and further pushed back and more and more features get added, and more and more development and R&D is done. Eventually peple just want to play the game and get sick of waiting, I go through cycles with SC, following every little piece of news and playing it every day, then getting bored and frustrated and leaving it alone for a few months.
THIS VIDEO
This video is pretty terrible, he goes through some real facts, his stuff on illfonic/star marine is probably accurate, and he is probably right about how CIG handled DSmart and escapist. He is also right about the website IMHO, its fucked, we al know it, and yes there is no reason to show the packages you cant buy. But The rest of the stuff he is just ranting about SC, it comes from a very negative slant and you can tell, he makes no effort to examine the other point of view... I really dont like when people make a video "explaining the controversy" and then just explain one side... Be objective about it, otherwise youre just a twat.
STAR CITIZEN
I want to play this game as CR describes it, And I think if anyone can make it its Chris. However I think the problem is, how long will he take to make it, the longer it takes the more often and louder the voices are going to be about feature creep and scam. Now, i know that the "feature creep" in SC is because they are now able to do so much more than they ever dreamed. And in regards to "scam" yea... no people can fuck off with that, if it was a scam sure as hell CIG would not have opened multiple studios around the world, paying hundereds of people, posting updates multiple times a week and discussing what they are doing on the forums every single day.
My fear is this, they are trying to do too much, There is some doubt as to making cry engine do all of this, but especially if you think what dozens of star systems with hundereds... thousands of AI characters is going to take, think of all the voice acting and animating and asset creation needed. My fear is it will either take too long, and/or the game as they describe it is simply not possible, and when it is released it wont live up to peoples expectations and people will lynch them over it.
I also think peoples hopes for this game may be too high... be careful what you hope for everyone.
MY SUGGESTIONS FOR CIG
First, fix the website, it badly badly needs fixing, its too confusing for new players, and the idea of $15000 fleet packages scares people off. So redo the website with a good solid FAQ and easy descriptions of what it is youre getting.
Second, get a proper tutorial in the game, its too difficult for new players, they have no idea what the fuck is going on or what they are doing... there needs to be an up to date working tutorial at each patch
Are you guys crazy?? Don't you have better things to do than writing these wall of texts?!
Jeez, gonna read that later. Need a coffee first :D
Jeez, gonna read that later. Need a coffee first :D
Ditto. Here is to buying many more internet spaceships!
I agree that this has been worth every penny, and for the same reasons. This is the game many of us have been waiting on for quite some time!
No fear on my side at all. I'm working in the IT branch since the year 2000 (coming from textiles - thats a cross step, isn't it? :D), and the way CIG goes - well, thats the way IT development works. First you have to write your specifications, which is a lot of work even in the first step. Then you begin to walk your first steps, recognizing some issues within your specifications, re-thinking and re-writing it. After that you can begin to walk the "big steps", the 100% pure development. If its a huge project, which this is for sure, you have a quality approval team so that you are able to develop in agile mode.
I suggest, that the specification phase took at least(!) a year at all, followed by two years of development. From the beginning, Chris always wanted a 100% persistent Universe/experience, which includes dogfighting, pvp-CoD-like-action as well as this whole flying around in space thing. Normally, there is no way to finance such a huge project because every part is a game - and a project - for itself. CIG has done a pretty clever thing to handle these part of the future game exactly as it is, as game "packages" which can be developed on its own, completely independent from each other package. At the end, he "only" has to define the system integration interfaces. The further "game packages" are the solar systems which they are building since a year, which is clearly stated and presented within the corresponding vids.
So, in the end I think we will all be surprised when CIG suddenly presents a flight-ready persistent universe, because they simply put together their packages.
Is there potential of disappointment? Yes, there is - and even that was stated in the vids! The production designer recently said that the procedural planets itself are a huge challenge insofar they should not look "boring" - they are working on that. But ArcCorp, a whole planet as a city? Non do that. There will definitely be places which are kind of wallpapers.
So, haters gonna hate - just let them. From a professional point of view, this project "Star Citizen" by CIG is driven by high efficiency and the progress they make is a) transparent and b) fast(!). Yes, it is fast. Even mentioned that they are rewriting/customizing >=50% of the based Cryengine, which they are doing in parallel. The only problem is the high visibility of us fans, who are watching and "observing" every single step of CIG. I would like to see one other project which is able to make such progress under these circumstances. CIG masters all of these challenges, well, masterful.
Thus: keep calm. Everything is better than expected.
Cookie?
Last edited:
Yup i forgot to say in my post, one of the things im acutely aware of in the development of SC is that the base level code is going to take fucking forever. Getting the procedures and base code in place will take freaking ages, but make cranking out content relatively easy... We have already seen that with the ship pipeline, think how long it was taking ships to be hangar ready then flight ready before they had the pipeline sorted, vs how long its taking afterwards...
In the same way getting the base level code to make the whole universe function is going to be very difficult and challenging and time consuming. All the complexities (local physics grids, positioning for a massive universe, item ports, to name but 3) but once all these are sorted, you can start building upwards
I have been waiting for this since Wing Commander 1.
I can already see that it will exceed my own personal expectations.
Remember, it is just a video game or is it a Universe? It's getting there.
I don't believe it will stop getting better. It suits me.
I'm not leaving and the naysayers can't make me. ;)
I can already see that it will exceed my own personal expectations.
Remember, it is just a video game or is it a Universe? It's getting there.
I don't believe it will stop getting better. It suits me.
I'm not leaving and the naysayers can't make me. ;)
Even if this game doesn't live up to all expectations, I will be happy to continue to support it and wait. It will be a rolling project for years following release and will just keep growing. I'm not too worried about the what-ifs, what I've seen so far in the game looks amazing already.
I would remind you all of the principles of escalation of commitment and cognitive dissonance, both seem to be in play here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escalation_of_commitment
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying we need to be alert. I obviously hit a nerve, and what you need to ask yourself is why you're defending a video game so much. It's one thing to be in love with an idea and another to be a fanatical defender of the same. I thought the maker of the video MandaloreGaming was being quite even-handed in his comments. So why did each of you feel the need to "write a wall of text." I personally feel the pull of escalation of commitment, but at least I am aware of it. I'm also aware that this level of fanaticism is not good for you or the game. I don't mean to insult you, my brothers and sisters. I just want to be sure we are thinking things through when you spend money you can't afford or you find yourself lying to your wife about it! All and all, it's just a game, no matter how grand.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escalation_of_commitment
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying we need to be alert. I obviously hit a nerve, and what you need to ask yourself is why you're defending a video game so much. It's one thing to be in love with an idea and another to be a fanatical defender of the same. I thought the maker of the video MandaloreGaming was being quite even-handed in his comments. So why did each of you feel the need to "write a wall of text." I personally feel the pull of escalation of commitment, but at least I am aware of it. I'm also aware that this level of fanaticism is not good for you or the game. I don't mean to insult you, my brothers and sisters. I just want to be sure we are thinking things through when you spend money you can't afford or you find yourself lying to your wife about it! All and all, it's just a game, no matter how grand.
Last edited:
the cool thing about it is that I have seen games released with less than 3.0 appears to have in it. SC is going to get really interesting from 3.0 on
Han Burgundy
Space Marshal
One of the main issues in 2.5 right now is easily griefing. They do it because they are bored. When we can spread out and we get more PVE action going on, that issue should quiet down quite a bit. We will never be bored wondering if there is anything else to try out. Planets are HUGE