[CONCERN] with realism in video games

[supitza]

[CONCERN INTENSIFIES]

As most of you know, Kingdom Come Deliverance has launched about a week ago. It's a historically-accurate realistic RPG set in 1403 Bohemia. It was a highly anticipated release.
Again and again during development, the devs stressed how realistic everything in the game would be: the NPCs had 24h cycles, you had to eat and sleep regularly in order to not die / save the game, people would react to your actions and the things you said, your gear would affect how noisy or conspicuous you were etc.
The idea is that everything sounded a lot better on paper. Yes, it's interesting that the NPCs have 24h schedules, but who the hell ever sat and watched an NPC go about their business for more than 2 minutes? If you want to turn in a quest at a vendor's, for example, and you get there at 9:01 PM: tough luck, the shop is closed! You need to skip time until morning to turn in your damned quest. That is anti-immersive.
Eating and sleeping might be fun for people who enjoy survival games, but it goes from fun to tedious very quickly in a game where the main focus isn't staying alive [*insert whistling Bee Gees tune here*]. SC has a save system similar to KCD - you have to go to sleep in a bed to save. Now, remember how fun it was to desperately search for a bed in KCD when your vision went blurry in the middle of an important, epic quest.
Reputation, as awesome as it could've been as a game mechanic, was reduced to a basic spreadsheet. In KCD, a whole village either loved you or hated you:
Rep >= 50? We love you, Henry!
Rep <50? Fuck you, Henry!
Another of my concerns is the minigames. Imagine that SC mining or reclaiming or scanning or whatever will get a skill minigame. Now, remember lockpicking and pickpocketing in KCD. It's fun the first 3 times, meh the next 4 times and really frustrating and annoying from then on. If you're a miner or a reclaimer in SC and want to do your profession for 5 hours at a time, that minigame will soon become eye-gouging hell.

My point is: exaggerated realism in PC games is only fun on paper. What do you think? Should realism in a video game ever be more important than fun and utility?
[/rant]
[CONCERN maintains decent levels]

EDIT: I just remembered running/walking. NOBODY walks in an RPG unless they're following a really slow NPC that they have to escort or if they're shooting a hip-hop machinima. Players will always do what's most efficient. Walking when you can run isn't efficient; waiting in front of a quest giver's house isn't efficient. Sleeping every 24h isn't efficient.
It sounds nice but translates poorly to gameplay.

 

[RoughGalaxy]

I agree. and I remember it being said in a video by CIG that they want a balance between realism and fun. They don't want realistic simulation to get in the way of people enjoying the game. sure there is black out, and red out, but your brains don't get splattered all over your chair when you hit quantum. also in SC there is no "saving" logging out in a bed simply sets where you will spawn when you log in. I'm pretty sure if your game crashes or a server bugs out (beta or later) you will simply log back in where ever you were when you lost connection.

 

[Sintha]

I feel ya man. For me it's fun > realism

For me I really hope that SC keeps that in mind and minimises the tedium

 

[Sraika]

Well, as with most questions, my answer is going to be it really depends on the situation.

Reputation in video games is always a bit weird, but we'll have to see what they end up doing for SC. For KCD, it was a complete clusterfuck. I got a reputation bug early on that dropped my rep in one of the towns to -100. (It literally cannot go lower than that.) The way they had it working, you could only raise your reputation in a couple of ways (doing quests, of which there are a limited number, or throwing money at beggars, or whatnot), and even then, you could only raise your reputation a relatively small amount. This basically forced me to shell out somewhere between 70 to 500 (!!) gold (depending on their social status) every time i wanted to talk to an npc, even if they were essential to the main quest. Now, this was due to a bug, but if i'd gone on a crazy murder spree or whatever, that'd be it. I'd be unable to finish the game without doing crazy workarounds/exploits or just going 'fuck it' and killing literally everyone.
A better way to do it, and how i hope they do it in Star Citizen, is have it be largely based on the clothes you're wearing and the ship you came in on, and have that be of equal value to your actions (well, to a reasonable extent, at least). KCD had something similar with the charisma system they used - which i rather liked - but if they meshed it together with overall reputation, i'd have enjoyed it a lot more. And, it would even be nominally more realistic.

The way clothes/armour worked, i actually don't have any serious complaints about. So, uh, well done, Warhorse. :grin:

Food and sleep are things i like having in video games, even if it's just a gimmick to make it more 'immersive'. The trick with these, and hygiene and whatever else you're putting in the game that is regularly required, is to make them really unobtrusive. In KCD, food was very well done. Sure, you needed to eat regularly, but it wasn't hard to stick a couple non-perishables (dried meat/fruit) in your inventory and just eat from the cooking pots they had every 20 meters. Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but you never really had to worry about not eating enough. Sleep, on the other hand, was irritating, because i tended to avoid it unless i needed to kill time, and there usually weren't beds anywhere near where i wanted to wait. This led to being tired at incredibly inconvenient times. They could have easily fixed this by allowing you to sleep on the ground (and added some sort of penalty for doing so), but instead, they had the wait function, where you stand there like a moron for several hours at a time, presumably staring off into space or something. Cleanliness was well done, although it was irritating that you couldn't get fully clean without paying 30 bucks and waiting several hours, it was understandable given the tech level.
What they need to do for Star Citizen, is make it so that it doesn't ever get in the way. Like, half of the ships have beds, and they're putting in the 'truck stops', but even then, you should be able to play the game - even with progressively more serious debuffs - by sleeping for an hour every three days. It mustn't get in the way of fun. Same with food and hygiene, though i have absolutely zero idea how that'll work in SC if they do put it in, since they're not even completely sure they actually will yet. It's great to have them, and it's really good for RP, which i'm a fan of, but if you're spending more time worrying about your next meal/nap/shower/whatever than actually playing the game, then they need to really dial it back.

NPCs in Star Citizen is going to be hugely different from the way KCD, and indeed, most other games do it. Or, at least, it bloody well better be, given how much they've talked up the subsumption system. In all seriousness, though, i like the way they're going with the ai thing. Hell, i could probly write another of these crazy long essay posts on it :grin:. So, instead of typing another several paragraphs on that, i'll just bash KCD for a bit :smile:.
The way the NPCs worked in KCD, they did a set action depending on what time of day it was, and which NPC they were. Now, most of the NPCs were your generic npc type (guard, farmer, townsperson, and what-have-you), and even the named ones probably followed a template. Basically, they'd go to a specific place at a specific time of day, and do a specific action. That's fairly standard for these types of games. The issue with what KCD had, imo, is that the vast majority of em didn't have much on their schedules. Sure, it's cool that they've got realistic days planned out, but it's not very cool if all they do is get up, eat, work, eat/socialize, work, tavern, bed. Every day. Forever. Some of them did other things, like go to church, or socialize a bit more, or go hunting, but mostly it's the same thing over and over. Hell, there were these generic 'wayfarers', and literally all they did was walk around the map. Like, they never stopped anywhere, they just kept going and going and going, like medieval fucking energizer bunnies. (yes, i followed one around for 20 mins. I was bored, sue me.)
As far as the shops (and, indeed, everything else) only opening at 9 am and closing at [whenever], it was indeed quite annoying on occasion, but, as i tend to do at least one raging kleptomaniac playthrough of every rpg you can steal things in, it's understandably necessary. If the shops never close, how the heck am i gonna sneak in and take everything, y'know? :laugh:
In SC, they haven't outright confirmed this, but it looks like they'll have 2 (or more) NPCs for most shops, so that when one's shift ends, another starts. It doesn't really make sense for them to close the shops at night, since the vast majority of em will be in space, and it's always dark out in space, eh? For the NPC templates, well, the way subsumption works is... ah, this post is long enough already. Look, it's a lot more complex than most other games, and will be largely based on the skills/traits the npc in question has, and their faction/profession/gender/food/sleep/hygiene/morale/ so many other things it's crazy, so it'll be a lot cooler than KCD. There's a lot of videos on it, but if you're interested, the one they did on the idris recently had a ton of cool ai things.

Minigames, well, i'd hope they don't go down that route. They have said that they're going to try to avoid those things, (and, in fact, specifically mentioned lockpicking as an example of what not to do), but the way that the guy who made how mining will work in 3.1 described it, it sure as hell sounded like a minigame to me. Even with repairing, which they've given us a decently in-depth description of, sounds a bit minigame-y as well. At the same time, it does look a damn sight more interesting than lockpicking, which is very overdone. You've seen one lockpicking interface, you've seen practically all of em.

As for running/walking, it's important to add a way to walk slowly, otherwise stealth is going to be bloody difficult if you're stomping around at full speed, or pretending to be an NPC, or whatever. As long as running is the default state, though, it's not really a big deal. Be prepared for everyone to sprint everywhere though.

All of that said (all of that said - sorry for essay post lol), i quite like realism. It's fun, it's good for RP, which i enjoy, and generally it adds to the game. The problem is when it stops adding, and starts taking away. For example, survival games. If you don't eat/drink/sleep, they start giving you debuffs, and, eventually, death. Sometimes they give you buffs when you've completely filled them, but mostly it's about taking away. And that's fine. There, it's the point of the game. That is the extent of their gameplay - surviving. Star Citizen is not a survival game. Instead of punishing you for forgetting to go to sleep or whatever, they should reward if you act realistic, like make you 5-10% more effective at [insert thing here] if you remember to feed yourself, or give you a charisma bonus for showering regularly. Now, are they going to do that? To be honest, probably not. It's not exactly something that's been done often - or indeed, at all - so they're more than likely going to stick with what works. Then again, they've surprised me before, so we'll see. I should probably post this on spectrum somewhere so i can at least say i mentioned it to them, but i more than likely wont. Even if they do put it in in a stupid way, though, as long as it's not bloody obnoxious, i'm still going to like the game better than i would without it.

Right, I think that's enough words for one day.

TL;DR = Realism is great, and i really like it, but if they're bashing you over the head with it and stuffing the 'immersiveness' down your throat, then they've gone too far.

 

[supitza]

The way the NPCs worked in KCD, they did a set action depending on what time of day it was, and which NPC they were. Now, most of the NPCs were your generic npc type (guard, farmer, townsperson, and what-have-you), and even the named ones probably followed a template. Basically, they'd go to a specific place at a specific time of day, and do a specific action. That's fairly standard for these types of games. The issue with what KCD had, imo, is that the vast majority of em didn't have much on their schedules. Sure, it's cool that they've got realistic days planned out, but it's not very cool if all they do is get up, eat, work, eat/socialize, work, tavern, bed. Every day. Forever. Some of them did other things, like go to church, or socialize a bit more, or go hunting, but mostly it's the same thing over and over. Hell, there were these generic 'wayfarers', and literally all they did was walk around the map. Like, they never stopped anywhere, they just kept going and going and going, like medieval fucking energizer bunnies. (yes, i followed one around for 20 mins. I was bored, sue me.)
As far as the shops (and, indeed, everything else) only opening at 9 am and closing at [whenever], it was indeed quite annoying on occasion, but, as i tend to do at least one raging kleptomaniac playthrough of every rpg you can steal things in, it's understandably necessary. If the shops never close, how the heck am i gonna sneak in and take everything, y'know? :laugh:
In SC, they haven't outright confirmed this, but it looks like they'll have 2 (or more) NPCs for most shops, so that when one's shift ends, another starts. It doesn't really make sense for them to close the shops at night, since the vast majority of em will be in space, and it's always dark out in space, eh? For the NPC templates, well, the way subsumption works is... ah, this post is long enough already. Look, it's a lot more complex than most other games, and will be largely based on the skills/traits the npc in question has, and their faction/profession/gender/food/sleep/hygiene/morale/ so many other things it's crazy, so it'll be a lot cooler than KCD. There's a lot of videos on it, but if you're interested, the one they did on the idris recently had a ton of cool ai things.

Yes, SC will have subsumption. Let's just hope that an important NPC that you need to interact with won't suddenly feel an urge to take a shower while you're looking for him to turn in a quest. If shops end up having several shifts so that they're never empty, that would be great.
What if an NPC waiting for a quest to be turned in would prioritize meeting the player and make that the top of their schedule?
The idea is that waiting around for stuff isn't fun when you're playing a video game.

Instead of punishing you for forgetting to go to sleep or whatever, they should reward if you act realistic, like make you 5-10% more effective at [insert thing here] if you remember to feed yourself, or give you a charisma bonus for showering regularly. Now, are they going to do that? To be honest, probably not. It's not exactly something that's been done often - or indeed, at all - so they're more than likely going to stick with what works. Then again, they've surprised me before, so we'll see. I should probably post this on spectrum somewhere so i can at least say i mentioned it to them, but i more than likely wont. Even if they do put it in in a stupid way, though, as long as it's not bloody obnoxious, i'm still going to like the game better than i would without it.

Yes, but... :slight_smile:
Even if they don't directly punish you for not washing, for example, and they instead give you a 10% buff to some attribute, absolutely EVERYBODY will shower regularly. Players tend to min-max while playing RPGs, so they will most likely shower regularly to keep their buff up while simultaneously bashing the game mechanic that forces them to do so.
Even if it's tedious, you'll do it for the buff, so it will feel like it's mandatory.

 

[Radegast74]

Wow, great topic and great observations. I agree...while "realism" sounds great, too much realism, or focusing on the wrong types of stuff can kill the immersion and/or make the game not fun. Who wants to play a game if it ain't fun? "Not fun" is why I check out from real life for a couple of hours and play games!

I think it is all about balance...you can introduce some "sucky" (but real) aspects to a game, but, it has to be balanced out by the rewards.

I am interested in Deliverance because you aren't some superhuman, overpowered character...you are a realistic person. But that has to be balanced by other aspects, like, it would be nice to jog around so I could get more done during my play sessions...and, yes, having an intelligent reputation system would be a good idea, something where it isn't all or nothing based on <50 or >=50 rep points.

Like @Sraika mentioned, I have high hopes for the AI / subsumption system in SC. I am concerned about the breathing/pulse rate thing, but I have found it to be well implemented in 3.0, at least. One aspect I like about Star Citizen is that it makes "space" into another factor you have to take into consideration. It isn't just NPC's or PvP you have to think about, you also have to consider staying alive in space. (This was one of the things that made The Expanse, so great, at least Season 1. Space was this hostile environment that everybody had to be mindful of at all time, it really added to the tension of the series! in a good way...)

 

[Montoya]

[CONCERN INTENSIFIES]

Why are you in a different country every week?

 

[Stevetank]

The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion had 24h NPC cycles. I'm used to shops being closed for the night. It's more of a common feature than an advanced one.

As for mini games, I find gun combat a mini game as well. It's just a game where you click on people's heads. The value of a mini game will vary by person. If you find the mining mini game boring, then maybe mining isn't right for you. Maybe the racing mini game is better? It's a matter of taste.

 

[supitza]

Why are you in a different country every week?

I use a VPN. :blush:

 

[RoughGalaxy]

TL; didn't quote :smile:

I think it'll be easy for SC to not worry about sleep, as people have to log off some time and maybe they will just make it so you are "sleeping" when you are logged out (you can literally /sleep and lay anywhere). Good old fashioned make believe. As for washing. Many ships that have a bathroom, also have a shower. but I don't see it as being a major thing. CIG did mention people will react different to you if you reek, but I think they also mentioned that they didn't want it to be a huge time sink.

They can't force sleeping, as that A: wouldn't be fun, and B: wouldn't work because it's an MMO and you can't fast forward time.

As for eating... I don't recall them ever saying that it would be required, maybe down a nutrient pack, or make eating a casual social thing, but not necessary.

Edit: forgot to talk about running. Running causes us to pass out, however! We CAN jog everywhere and it's pretty convenient. consider as well, that we will have ground vehicles for long trips, so most of our moving around will be indoors and in bases etc where we may have to deal with hostiles, and sprinting everywhere doesn't make a lot of sense when you may eat space buckshot when you come around a corner

 

[supitza]

They can't force sleeping, as that A: wouldn't be fun, and B: wouldn't work because it's an MMO and you can't fast forward time.

This is a good point!

 

[hardroc77]

[CONCERN INTENSIFIES]

As most of you know, Kingdom Come Deliverance has launched about a week ago. It's a historically-accurate realistic RPG set in 1403 Bohemia. It was a highly anticipated release.
Again and again during development, the devs stressed how realistic everything in the game would be: the NPCs had 24h cycles, you had to eat and sleep regularly in order to not die / save the game, people would react to your actions and the things you said, your gear would affect how noisy or conspicuous you were etc.
The idea is that everything sounded a lot better on paper. Yes, it's interesting that the NPCs have 24h schedules, but who the hell ever sat and watched an NPC go about their business for more than 2 minutes? If you want to turn in a quest at a vendor's, for example, and you get there at 9:01 PM: tough luck, the shop is closed! You need to skip time until morning to turn in your damned quest. That is anti-immersive.
Eating and sleeping might be fun for people who enjoy survival games, but it goes from fun to tedious very quickly in a game where the main focus isn't staying alive [*insert whistling Bee Gees tune here*]. SC has a save system similar to KCD - you have to go to sleep in a bed to save. Now, remember how fun it was to desperately search for a bed in KCD when your vision went blurry in the middle of an important, epic quest.
Reputation, as awesome as it could've been as a game mechanic, was reduced to a basic spreadsheet. In KCD, a whole village either loved you or hated you:
Rep >= 50? We love you, Henry!
Rep <50? Fuck you, Henry!
Another of my concerns is the minigames. Imagine that SC mining or reclaiming or scanning or whatever will get a skill minigame. Now, remember lockpicking and pickpocketing in KCD. It's fun the first 3 times, meh the next 4 times and really frustrating and annoying from then on. If you're a miner or a reclaimer in SC and want to do your profession for 5 hours at a time, that minigame will soon become eye-gouging hell.

My point is: exaggerated realism in PC games is only fun on paper. What do you think? Should realism in a video game ever be more important than fun and utility?
[/rant]
[CONCERN maintains decent levels]

EDIT: I just remembered running/walking. NOBODY walks in an RPG unless they're following a really slow NPC that they have to escort or if they're shooting a hip-hop machinima. Players will always do what's most efficient. Walking when you can run isn't efficient; waiting in front of a quest giver's house isn't efficient. Sleeping every 24h isn't efficient.
It sounds nice but translates poorly to gameplay.

Uugg! This sounds like too much work for me. And not much fun at that. Thanks for the synopsis, I'll think I'll pass on this one. Maybe put the $ towards getting a ship outta hock.

 

[hardroc77]

I use a VPN. :blush:

Vpn? I'm investigating a few. Would ya mind telling me (us) which you use and opinion on it?

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

Last I checked I backed a game.

If I wanted to witness exhaustion, hunger and thirst I'd go upstairs and look in the mirror :(

 

[Printimus]

I walk in SC. Adds to the FIDELITY and REALISM of the game. Plus its fun to roleplay.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

I walk in SC. Adds to the FIDELITY and REALISM of the game. Plus its fun to roleplay.

I do the reverse: I throw myself through the window of Olisar down to the ship-call pads every time because it's fun and hasn't stopped being fun. Been doing it since 2.5.

The moment that's no longer viable i'll find a way to make it viable, like wearing Lo-Grav underpants or just living on a low gravity asteroid.

 

[supitza]

Vpn? I'm investigating a few. Would ya mind telling me (us) which you use and opinion on it?

I have very limited knowledge about VPNs, but I use TunnelBear. It's really easy to use and their marketing team did this:

When I was deciding which one to buy, I remember my top 3 were TunnelBear, ExpressVPN and NordVPN. The other two were better for pro users (also a bit more expensive), but the bear mascot was too hard to pass on.

 

[Radegast74]

I have very limited knowledge about VPNs, but I use TunnelBear. It's really easy to use and their marketing team did this:

When I was deciding which one to buy, I remember my top 3 were TunnelBear, ExpressVPN and NordVPN. The other two were better for pro users (also a bit more expensive), but the bear mascot was too hard to pass on.

Holy crap, with a design like that, who needs to shop around? Sign me up for TunnelBear!

Plus, look:

Grizzly regards from Toronto, Canada! Noice!

 

[DirectorGunner]

but who the hell ever sat and watched an NPC go about their business for more than 2 minutes?

Depends on how attractive the NPC is ... senpai.... :D

finding balance in realism is important concerning video games, luckily SC will have that balance.

 

[Sraika]

Yes, SC will have subsumption. Let's just hope that an important NPC that you need to interact with won't suddenly feel an urge to take a shower while you're looking for him to turn in a quest. If shops end up having several shifts so that they're never empty, that would be great.
What if an NPC waiting for a quest to be turned in would prioritize meeting the player and make that the top of their schedule?
The idea is that waiting around for stuff isn't fun when you're playing a video game.


Yes, but... :slight_smile:
Even if they don't directly punish you for not washing, for example, and they instead give you a 10% buff to some attribute, absolutely EVERYBODY will shower regularly. Players tend to min-max while playing RPGs, so they will most likely shower regularly to keep their buff up while simultaneously bashing the game mechanic that forces them to do so.
Even if it's tedious, you'll do it for the buff, so it will feel like it's mandatory.

We'll have to see how they do quest NPCs, since some quests will be turned in from your mobiglass/from a location that's always open (eg the cargo desk at port oli) For quests that need named NPCs, i'm not sure how they'll do it, so i couldn't say. Still, it's not a huge deal unless there's no easy way to wait for em, which there very well might not be. Since SC is an MMO, they cant just speed up the world for a few hours. Even if they end up having the important NPCs just sit in a bar for all eternity, i wouldn't mind that much.

For the needs thing, that's exactly the effect you want. It's no big deal if you don't, but most people are going to do it anyways. It's not really changing the system, it's just framing it differently. If you tell people they get something if they shower regularly, they'll feel better about doing it than if you tell people you'll take stuff away if they don't. Carrot and stick approach, yeah? :grin: