Petrolheads, SUV owners, I need your advice (car buying)

[Lorddarthvik]

This is excellent advice. Now, over here in the states, BMW and Mercedes parts and service costs an arm and a leg, but from what I understand, over in Europe, Mercs have cars that are fairly reasonable compared to over here.

With an older car like 10+ years old, a Toyota or Honda might be the best bet. Both make good, long lasting cars, and they have enough market volume to make them reasonable to service and easy to get parts for. Even if new parts are unavailable, used parts are available from legitimate sources. (local junkyards, parted out cars, etc)

I owned a Toyota that ran for close to 18 years and it was miles and a lack of driving that did it in. (seized up the rear diff after not driving it a year or so) and it had close to 250k miles on it.

Oh, and with anything that old, you are probably going to either need to do a major engine service right away, unless you have the records that prove it was already done. These can be very expensive and not something I would recommend skipping. This is especially true for changing the timing belt, and a critical item that needs to be done if it's an interference engine. You do not want to risk your engine by not doing the proper maintenance. You should also have your mechanic do a once over before you buy it. If they advertise it "as is", it may not be a good a deal as you think unless you have someone like Edd China from Wheeler Dealers to fix it for you. Remember, people get rid of cars that old for two reasons. They are tired of them, or there is something wrong with them. Mostly it's the "something wrong" part that costs more than they really want to pay, or they have been nickle and dimed to death by it, etc. I get rid of my cars when the average yearly repair costs more than the yearly new car payment.

Good luck to you.

Sound advice to anyone buying a used car, thank you!


God I miss Wheeler Dealers, especially the early-middle seasons when it was all about repairs and facelifts, and a lot less about trading and showmanship.

Over here, German luxury cars still cost an arm and a leg to repair, but you can probably keep a kidney. Also in my postsoviet country, Mercs are still a huge status symbol, and prices are matched to that. The only reason I'm looking into a BMW is that my mechanic is a certified BMW mechanic, but works for far less. Actually, I'm his only non-bmw-owner paying costumer. BMW parts still cost a lot though, as there is little to no aftermarket parts for the important pricey bits. You gotta buy OEM, or try to find one at the junkyard, but those are rare.

In my local market, all used car sales imply that it's sold "as is", so it's never really written in the ad. While browsing autotrader.com USA, it seemed to me that cars advertised "as is" were in a very poor state, and probably really broken. Prices were far lower as well, now I know why. I will avoid those, thanks for the warning!

Costs and availability for Japanese car parts are all over the place here. A used low-milage fully working toyota yaris engine costs as much as the cheapest aftermarket windshield wiper motor for a Honda CR-V, and both are really popular here. So it depends on the specific car and specific part. Just as an example, I can get all the important parts for a US import Grand Cherokee (I checked) as easily as I can for a Suzuki Swift, because both were sold in the EU (actually the Swift was made in the city right next door to me), but no one has any idea what a 2009 Subaru Tribeca is, so it would be really hard to service. At this moment, there are only 6 Tribecas on Mobile.de, which is one of the most popular car trading website in the whole EU!


I consider it standard procedure after buying a used car, to change all the fluids, and do a thorough checkup. I have accounted for this in the budget.
This includes everything in the engine bay, and under the car. Plugs, ignition, wiring, chains, belts, and so on...
Most importantly, changing the timing belt unless there is definitive proof that it was done recently and is in good condition. I've heard enough horror stories about that... Checking the suspension, linkages, driveshafts, brake system (from pads to hardlines), and ofc checking and most likely changing the transmission fluid, even if it's a "never needs changing" type of manual. Yeah, those were a thing for a while. Is that kinda bs still around, or they now tell you to change it at least every 100k miles or something?

Manual transmission fluid story time:
Back 13 years ago, when he started out, my mechanic believed that you didn't need to change the transmission fluid on my car, as it said in the manual, and is built so that you are never supposed to do it. I was adamant that we change it after I was handed the keys at 18 years old. The car had around a 100k kms (62k miles) in it. The fluid was totally black, burnt up, and had burnt bits in it. It had to be changed, and probably a good 20-30k kms sooner would have been the right time to do it. It made a huge difference in the feel and even the sound of the transmission, and since then we changed it again 50K kms later. On that day he has learnt to check the fluid in any kind of transmission, even if you are not supposed to, because there is no such thing as everlasting transmission fluid!

Question to you in the USA: how widespread, or rare, it is to find cars with odometers that were spun back to a much more "acceptable" mileage?
I'm curious, because over here, you should never buy any car by looking at how many kms (miles) it has on it. There is an insanely high rate of "clock winding", as for some strange reason, every average Joe wants a car with 120K kms maximum on it. So basically, low mileage usually marks a car to be avoided, rather than a good deal...

 

[Bruce]

I read it all (wow!) and my 2 cents are :
1) you don't need SUV indeed
2) the car that most probably satisfies all your requirements is 2011 Chrysler Town & Country

 

[Thalstan]

I read it all (wow!) and my 2 cents are :
1) you don't need SUV indeed
2) the car that most probably satisfies all your requirements is 2011 Chrysler Town & Country

I've been hesitant to suggest a minivan, but that is a good idea as well. Also a Toyota Sienna or a Honda Odyssey (both my brother and sister in law had the last one and they felt it was safe enough for their two kids to be driven around in...and they are VERY protective)

 

[Thalstan]

Sound advice to anyone buying a used car, thank you!

Question to you in the USA: how widespread, or rare, it is to find cars with odometers that were spun back to a much more "acceptable" mileage?
I'm curious, because over here, you should never buy any car by looking at how many kms (miles) it has on it. There is an insanely high rate of "clock winding", as for some strange reason, every average Joe wants a car with 120K kms maximum on it. So basically, low mileage usually marks a car to be avoided, rather than a good deal...

I really don't see it that much from private sales, but beware the sketchy used car dealers (Bob's discount auto sales)

also, 75,000 miles (120,000 km) is going to be a hard find for a 10 year old car. Average is 12k a year over here, so for 10 years, you are looking at a 120,000 mile car, or about 192,000 km. 75,000 miles will mean a much higher price for that year for a US sourced car.

finally, have you checked what your local laws are regarding US cars and their use of imperial units and safety systems? Most cars have at least dual numbers on the dials, but I am not sure if the safety systems are EU compliant. Just something to be aware of. Canadian cars are almost identical to US cars, with a few exceptions. Most have engine block heaters already in them, and they are metric to start with.


Good luck to you, but please DO NOT BUY A YUGO...(old joke over here)

 

[Lorddarthvik]

I read it all (wow!) and my 2 cents are :
1) you don't need SUV indeed
2) the car that most probably satisfies all your requirements is 2011 Chrysler Town & Country

0: thank you for reading it all, you must have a lot of free time lol
1: no, indeed I don't. I want a Car, but I can't have it, unless I find a job that pays 3 times my current wage so I doN't have to rely on the help of others.
2: umm, nope. First of all, it's a minivan!!! You know what that word means for someone who actually likes cars? just nope. never. You're trolling me right now, right? :D
It's the worst kind of vehicle developed. Period. (yes, I'd rather ride a unicycle to work every day)

From a more sensible approach, it meets exactly 1 point of the requirements, and that's weight. It has terrible crash results when it comes to the most real world test, small overlap front, and would get about 3 stars in EU standards for the rest. Somehow it got okay results in the US tests. Looking at the IIHS crash test pictures, I can't understand how, with most of the cabin collapsed on itself and half the engine filling the legspace... Oh right, it's a Minivan! It's safety standard is "unless you are literally pancaked, it's perfect" because they can't be any better...
It's basicly an ancient tin-can-on-rails build, which handles like an oil tanker at best (seen it), and is way too big for it's own good. The "luxury" provided is of laughable quality. Great if you have a 10 minute drive with 9 kids in the back every day, so you don't worry about the interrior being messed up, but that's not something we will ever need or want to do.
Someone around here recently bought one, although I can't tell which year as they all look the same. I was kinda shocked that someone went for this instead of the many better minivans on offer. It's friggin huge for these streets, and somehow it manages to look comical rather than imposing. It's probably the wobbling motion it has. And it moves slower than the tonnes of arctic ice it melts with every second of it's woeful existence... So even with an "unbiased" view (lol, me and unbiased, I know...) it is not the car we are looking for. Minivans are out as a whole. My wife won't even go near one and she doesn't even care about cars that much! I wouldn't touch it with a stick, unless the stick was 30 feet long with a claymore on its end.

I've been hesitant to suggest a minivan, but that is a good idea as well. Also a Toyota Sienna or a Honda Odyssey (both my brother and sister in law had the last one and they felt it was safe enough for their two kids to be driven around in...and they are VERY protective)

It's a good call you have been hesitant. You do know it's the worst swearword you can say to a car person, right? :D
We are not looking for a children carrier box!
Anyways, the 2016 odyssey-s crash test looks way more convincing, at least you can still recognize the shape, so I guess it's kinda safe-ish...
But still, I'd rather walk.

Thank's for the answer on my quesiton!
I'm well aware that a car of that age would have around 200-250k km or more on it. That's perfectly reasonable. I'm not one of those ppl who thinks you can get a 15 year old car with real 120k kms. It's just the standard stupid thing around here when it comes to buying used cars, so the sellers adapted, thus most cars had their odometers altered to match. I was curious if the US had a trend like this going.
I checked the laws, and they are kinda vague and useless. I'll have to change to amber turn signals, but that's pretty much it.

Don't worry, I won't buy a yugo. I'm afraid I might roll it lol

 

[Vavrik]

I have only two pieces of advice, and a question.

4WD feels good in snow, but it's deception. What you really need is front wheel drive for winter driving. If it snows where you are, take an informal survey of the number of 4WD vehicles in the ditch. You'll find there are proportionally way more than front wheel drive vehicles. There's another thing, unless they're heavy duty, or purpose built, the suspension of most 4WD vehicles is usually not very robust.

The other piece of advice I'd have is to stay away from anything with a Chrysler AT-6 transmission, they're in the your vehicle age bracket. They are a maintenance and repair nightmare.

The question is, why the aversion to diesel? I know here in the US and Canada, diesel fuel is more expensive but that is a government taxation issue. But it's not so expensive as to eliminate the benefits.

 

[Thalstan]

No, you want snow tires while driving in snow. Snow tires have a much bigger impact on handling snow that anything else. Mud and snow rates tires are not snow tires.

I grew up on the Illinois/Wisconsin state line between Chicago and Milwaukee. I know snow and driving in snow. I drove RWD vehicles all my life except for FWD cars I drove when delivering auto parts for my boss, those wagons would go into a spin on any slippery surface if you tapped the brakes. Including damp roads and sand. Only spun my V8 once, and that’s when I hit black ice on the road when it went from state maintained to township maintained one night and the town did not put any salt down yet. Any car would have spun in that situation. Be smart while driving and use snow tires when appropriate and you will be fine.

 

[Thalstan]

The question is, why the aversion to diesel? I know here in the US and Canada, diesel fuel is more expensive but that is a government taxation issue. But it's not so expensive as to eliminate the benefits.

Because for a sporty vehicle, diesel is horrible. That said, my 400 hp, 800 ft-lb diesel truck can beat a lot of performance type cars off the line. Dang that thing can haul butt.

 

[Vavrik]

No, you want snow tires while driving in snow. Snow tires have a much bigger impact on handling snow that anything else. Mud and snow rates tires are not snow tires.

You're right there, I thought that went without saying. Same as "all season" which means every season except winter. Don't forget, I'm from Eastern Ontario, Canada. I just live in houston Tx now, cuz my wife got fed up with having 14 feet of snow on the ground.

 

[Bruce]

You're trolling me right now, right? :smile:
It's the worst kind of vehicle developed. Period. (yes, I'd rather ride a unicycle to work every day)

Well I wasn't really trolling .. from handling perspective you need to ensure V6 3.0+ engine and minivans are not that bad (of course it isn't M5 still). I try to stay true to the price range ... w/o it there are many choices. Now speaking about something more or less sporty with pricetag at least in N/A ~ 11k US what about toyota venza ?
https://www.kijiji.ca/v-cars-trucks/city-of-toronto/2011-toyota-venza-se-all-wheel-drive-perfect-only-13995/1333556729?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

 

[Bruce]

I'd recommend to hunt for V6 version of course

 

[Lorddarthvik]

I have only two pieces of advice, and a question.

4WD feels good in snow, but it's deception. What you really need is front wheel drive for winter driving. If it snows where you are, take an informal survey of the number of 4WD vehicles in the ditch. You'll find there are proportionally way more than front wheel drive vehicles. There's another thing, unless they're heavy duty, or purpose built, the suspension of most 4WD vehicles is usually not very robust.

The other piece of advice I'd have is to stay away from anything with a Chrysler AT-6 transmission, they're in the your vehicle age bracket. They are a maintenance and repair nightmare.

The question is, why the aversion to diesel? I know here in the US and Canada, diesel fuel is more expensive but that is a government taxation issue. But it's not so expensive as to eliminate the benefits.

Thanks for the warning about the AT-6, that's something I had no idea about!

Usually I see FWD Peugeots and newer AWD Audi Quatros in the ditch. The first cos of very bad drivers, the second because they thought a new A6 could do rally driving, like the Audis of old. There's also the odd BMW cos ppl who can afford new bimmers can't drive for shit, and have no idea how "bad" RWD reacts in the snow. Most ppl depend on their electronics to save their asses and can't handle a slide in an RWD car. I did my fair share of drifting on bald tires in the snow in an old e30 and on winter tires in a new f30, and I can see why they crash. Bimmer Bacon Saver electronics don't work in snow, at all. SUV drivers are mostly slow and careful enough in the snow, which is the opposite of how they drive in dry conditions.
One important thing I learned about 4WD is that they will go up places where FWD can't go even with proper winter tires, but going down a hill or simply trying to come to a stop is the same for both. Unless you have proper tires with grip and you go slow enough, both will slide and crash the same.
I'm a firm believer in the sperate-summer-winter tires cult, and always had proper winter tires, and I plan to keep doing that. So no messing around with all-seasons. I've already budgeted for a fresh set of summer and winter tires on whatever car we buy.


I was looking into diesels as that's what's available locally, especially in SUVs. I was convinced to avoid em for a lot of reasons, and non of them are that they are not sporty enough, although that is true as well.
With the relatively short trips we take, it's just not worth it. The only benefit to us, which is better fuel efficiency and slightly cheaper diesel price, is negligible compared to the cost of upkeep. I've done some calculations and it's just not worth it for us with this type of use (see spoiler). Also, dieselgate and EU diesel ban hysteria...

Spoiler: diesels

-The diesel engines available here are usually small and week and aimed at nothing but fuel efficiency. Most SUVs come with a 2liter turbo diesel, even if the car weighs over 2 tonnes. It feels alright because of the torque, but the engine is struggling a lot more then it should.
There are exceptions, but normally they were marketed to save money on fuel as diesel is cheaper here. Also it was marketed as more environmentally friendly, thus was cheaper to buy, but we all know by now that that is a lie. So people who bought them expected to spend less on maintenance as well, but actually it's the opposite. N/A diesels can take a lot of abuse, but not these modern small turbo diesels. High pressure pumps and tips, dual-mass flyweels, turbos, particle filters and such, cost a lot more than typical petrol engine parts, and owners usually neglect them because they bought the car with a diesel to save money compared to a petrol. Most of the diesel cars on the market are on sale because they need an engine overhaul, and even if the owner was willing to pay for it the first time, they are not willing to pay for it by the second time, as it costs more than the car is worth.

-The typical distance a car travels in one trip is much shorter here, so engines have a lot of wear from running them cold. The cars we are looking at usually have over 120k miles on them, most of em well over a 150k, and under these circumstances, a diesel engine wears out much more then a petrol, with lots of trips where the engine only got up to temperature by the time it got to it's destination. So they smoke and leak oil, and down on compression as the cylinders are worn to hell, and clatter like crazy because the tips are worn and gunked up, the high pressure pump has lost most of it's seals, and the flywheel is bust. Fixing all these could cost well over 5000 USD just in parts alone, that is way more then the difference in the fuel consumed.

-Another reason is that the EU has gone mad about diesels after dieselgate blew up. Like proper California mad. After 25 years of pushing diesels down our throats as hard as they could, they suddenly want to ban them altogether. Now, while globally this won't happen for another 5-10 years at least, our little country is a bit different when it comes to stuff like this. Our gov. tends to overreach, whenever there is a mass hysteria like this, and might end up actually banning diesels much sooner, as they try to do something "first". It is as stupid as it sounds, and might seem unlikel with over 25% of cars being diesel, but it is a scenario I have to consider. With all the talk about banning em from the city by the end of This Year, I don't want to risk it. Also, resale value of a diesel will plunge even more in the coming years, with this anti-diesel stuff going on, so it's not a great choice.

- I just like high revving engines, diesels are the opposite

 

[Thalstan]

If you ever get the chance, drive one of the big HD (2500/3500 class) diesel pickups from the US. Those things have tons of getup and go, but then they are used for hauling and pulling heavy loads, and can yank a stump out of the ground. The fact that they are V8 turbo diesels with 800+ ft lbs of torque (1084 Newton meters), makes them a very different beast.

For longer trips, diesels are better. Better fuel economy and overall better reliability. For shorter trips though, the inability to quickly warm up causes some issues. Also, pollution is an issue as well unless you have a really good filter and a system that uses DEF.

Fun fact, diesel exhaust fluid was something you used to troll new employees in a auto parts store with. In fact, when I got my truck in 2011 and needed to get some DEF from the local NAPA in 2012, I was almost run out of the store. I managed to convince them to look it up on their computers after calling my old neighbor who owned a NAPA in my old hometown and getting the part number from him. The look on their face was priceless. They needed to order some from the warehouse, but now they stock it and it's much cheaper than the dealer.

 

[Bruce]

I have only two pieces of advice, and a question.

4WD feels good in snow, but it's deception. What you really need is front wheel drive for winter driving.

Let me politely disagree please ... I can't speak about all 4wd versions, but one from subaru and one from mitsubishi demonstrated very good winter highway driving capabilities

 

[Lorddarthvik]

Well I wasn't really trolling .. from handling perspective you need to ensure V6 3.0+ engine and minivans are not that bad (of course it isn't M5 still). I try to stay true to the price range ... w/o it there are many choices. Now speaking about something more or less sporty with pricetag at least in N/A ~ 11k US what about toyota venza ?
https://www.kijiji.ca/v-cars-trucks/city-of-toronto/2011-toyota-venza-se-all-wheel-drive-perfect-only-13995/1333556729?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

Now that is an interesting find! Never knew such a car existed, thanks!
Barely hit's the weight minimum with AWD, but it is shaped mostly like a car, has good safety ratings and pictures look much better.. hmm..
Problem I can see right away, is that it doesn't exist here. I don't think the toyota K platform is used in Europe.? Getting it registered, and repaired, could be a real issue, unless parts match some other Toyotas here. Apart from that, I can't see any obvious issues. It's a Toyota, Toyotas are supposed to be reliable and well made...
I'm not too fond of Toyotas in general (usually kinda boring) but they make good cars. I could live with the boring part because this one would be unique lol
Btw, when I say handling, I mean handling, not overall sportiness. Handling doesn't equal power, at all. You can have an awesome handling car with little to no power (see the original Mini for reference)

If you ever get the chance, drive one of the big (2500/3500 class) diesel pickups from the US. Those things have tons of getup and go, but then they are used for very different things. The fact that they are V8 turbo diesels with 800+ ft lbs of torque (1084 Newton meters), makes them a very different beast.

For longer trips, diesels are better. Better fuel economy and overall better reliability. For shorter trips though, the inability to quickly warm up causes some issues. Also, pollution is an issue as well unless you have a really good filter and a system that uses DEF.

Fun fact, diesel exhaust fluid was something you used to troll new employees in a auto parts store with. In fact, when I got my truck in 2011 and needed to get some DEF from the local NAPA in 2012, I was almost run out of the store. I managed to convince them to look it up on their computers after calling my old neighbor who owned a NAPA in my old hometown and getting the part number from him. The look on their face was priceless. They needed to order some from the warehouse, but now they stock it and it's much cheaper than the dealer.

Oh, I would love to drive one of those! I know they got immense power, and awesome for towing and stuff. Sadly our diesels are all about effeciency, not rolling coal...
If I was working 150 miles away, I would stay home and work from there.. No wait, I meant to say, I would get a diesel. They are great for long trips.

Let me politely disagree please ... I can't speak about all 4wd versions, but one from subaru and one from mitsubishi demonstrated very good winter highway driving capabilities

I missed that statemanet, and gotta agree with you disagreeing on that one.
I've been driving an FWD car in snow for more than 12 years, so I know it works, it just doesn't work as well as AWD can.
That reminded me how much I miss handbrake-sliding into the parking space at my last workplace in the winters. Fun times...
Personally, I'd rephrase that if I may, as FWD won't deceive you as much when driving in snow. Also their tendency to understeer rather then over, is something that's supposed to be easier to handle for most ppl. I disagree with that last part, but whatever...
As most casual-AWD cars are FWD biased (like the Toyota you linked), and only really use the rear wheels when the front starts to slip, it kinda doesn't matter as much... There are exceptions, like BMWs are RWD biased even when they got Xdrive. Anyways, both FWD and AWD can work fine in snow as long as you don't go crazy with them, or want them to perform miracles.
Seen a lot of modern SUVs and FWD cars struggle and slide back on my small uphill street, meanwhile an old Audi S8 Quattro, with it's oldshcool 4WD system just went up without breaking a sweat so... yeah, it depends.
Now real 4WD cars, with proper transfer box, low range gears, and all around locking diffs, is an entirely other sort of beast, you won't find that on the cars I'm looking at.
Aaand with that, back to how awesome Subarus are. Dammit. :D

 

[Thalstan]

it sounds like the Subaru is the way you want to go. Honestly, if my mother were to get herself a new(er) car than the ones she has now, Subaru is one of the brands I would suggest for her. Unfortunately, I am not sure how exciting they would be for a petrolhead like me.

oh, and my diesel get 17 MPGs. My cousin with the gas version gets 9.

 

[Bruce]

Aaand with that, back to how awesome Subarus are. Dammit. :smile:

Ok, let me try to distract you from subarus using another japanese car, that isn't very frequent in europe :)

https://www.autoscout24.com/offers/suzuki-xl-7-suv-gasoline-grey-6d1c5264-1d92-0754-e053-e250040abed5?cldtidx=4

 

[Bruce]

Problem I can see right away, is that it doesn't exist here.

It was an experiment ... it doesn't exist anywhere anymore ( 2016 was last model year ). Can't say anything about parts - didn't own this one, but there are lots of those running in NA so you should be able to order in worst case.

 

[Lorddarthvik]

Ok, let me try to distract you from subarus using another japanese car, that isn't very frequent in europe :slight_smile:

https://www.autoscout24.com/offers/suzuki-xl-7-suv-gasoline-grey-6d1c5264-1d92-0754-e053-e250040abed5?cldtidx=4

If it comes with that Smurfs DVD (see pictures), I'm buying it right now!

 

[Bruce]

If it comes with that Smurfs DVD (see pictures), I'm buying it right now!

just verify that it does have parking sensors and/or camera .. if not - you're in for some extra work to get a system and install it (not a lot of work and money, but still some)