He stated that there were a few he had his eye one, not that discussion was limited to the 4 given. Nor was a price range stated. Some limitations to the variables were never mentioned.
Ship for dangerous traderoutes
- Thread starter FZD
- Start date
SoloFlyer
Grand Admiral
Hmm, not quite sure how exactly distortion damage works currently, didn't they redo it a patch or two ago? Isn't it disabling the part that it hits, not everything in the whole ship? Also, I seem to recall it mentioned somewhere that larger components / etc. dissipate distortion damage faster, or am I mistaken? Though sure, 20k DPS distortion is alot. Just not sure if you can keep the engines, shields, AND 3 turrets disabled long enough.
Also, getting to 1500 meters might present a challenge to begin with. Presuming you'd be laying in wait at some quantum spot as you can't interdict, but if the starfarer arrives already maintaining max speed, you'd have some catching up to do. And the max speed difference during that chase would only be 133m/s, meaning you'd be flying relatively straight for over half a minute while the starfarer can shoot you freely. Keeping in mind that those S6 guns don't need awfully many hits to sink a Hoplite, if I'm not mistaken one quadrant of the shields would go down in 2 seconds and then the hull would only survive another 2 second. If I am mistaken the shields would last 8 seconds, hull still goes down in 2. Oh, except if the starfarer decouples and gets those 4 S5's pointed in right direction, that might take like 10 seconds, but still 20 seconds to get 2 seconds worth of hits in. Not to mention, if you take your time dodging and making course alterations, the starfarer will escape that encounter altogether, and that's the goal for the starfarer.
Anyhow, although Gemini is currently using base models turrets (everything's one size smaller than they should be. And while I know it's a possibility that Gemini ends up really having significantly less firepower than originally intended, I wouldn't panic before the work is finished on the starfarers), it might be interesting to do some tests around this scenario.
Yes, exactly. Kraken was an interesting idea, tho it's way out of my budged. Maybe I'll grind it in game :D
And I especially liked Naffnaffs idea about retaliator, though so far I think I might be the happiest with Gemini. Though a lot remains to be seen once Gemini & Starfarer actually get finished.
AntiSqueaker
Space Marshal
All the distortion weapons currently do about 1/3rd intended damage in the PU. They do full damage in Vanduul Swarm and Pirate Swarm and absolutely shred shields, although the obvious downside of distortion weapons not doing "real" balances their insanely high DPS on paper.
And AFAIK distortion damage on components simply "depletes" the component health until they overload it and force it to shut down, so larger components will have naturally higher HP, not to mention some ships have the components internally accessible for ease of repair.
And AFAIK distortion damage on components simply "depletes" the component health until they overload it and force it to shut down, so larger components will have naturally higher HP, not to mention some ships have the components internally accessible for ease of repair.
Kraken is the freighter of choice for discerning TESTies because you can fill it with Auroras.
Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
Last I heard the plan is still to treat distortion damage from weapons, spike missiles (Arrester IIIs) and EMP all the same--they don't damage ship's components at all. Distortion weapons will go against shields first, but then go to the computer and everything run by the computer will go down. No idea whether EMP bypasses the shields since it always works when in range. No spike missiles in game yet. However, when the computer does go down from any of these in knocks out all systems contingent upon it. This is not intended to include life support, gravity or manned turrets, but if you put an AI blade in a turret odds are it will go down. Propulsion and Navigation require the computer so when it goes down the bird is dead. (If you have a last second to respond, torque hard on an axis and decouple--it's going to be hard to board a bird that is rotating.)
Yeah, attacking a Starfarer while flying in a straight line, directly from behind but not in a blind spot, that would be stupid.
I don't think stupid pirates will last long, and I'm convinced the Hoplite can take a Starfarer. I doubt the contest will be close.
You have to have a crew on these ships or you will lose them.
Chances are I'd already be decoupled and spinning to rotate new shields against the distortion damage if the hoplite has gotten that close.
Well, you could try to go around, but with 133 m/s speed difference, and a circular radius of 5km, that is going to take a while. That starfarer will be long gone before you get to approach from a blind spot. Or you could try evasive manoeuvres whilst approaching from behind, but the larger manoeuvres you do, the slower you'll approach. 30 seconds is already cutting it kinda close.
Or did you have some other plan of attack in mind? I suppose the only alternative is sitting with your systems off on a planet, near an outpost. Tho that will then rather change the boarding dynamic. The hoplite could keep the landed Gemini grounded, but the boarding party would need to enter through the ramp most like, which as far as boardings go is the worst part to enter in my opinion, easiest to defend against, especially if we get some deployable infantry goodies at some point, like a proper MG or something.
I mean, landing to sell goods is the only time you'll ever find me not going full speed ahead with cargo, because stupid merchants don't last long either. :)
Yeah, as I said, 2-3 humans, rest NPC. Or do you mean that wouldn't be enough?
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Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
There are lots of ways to attack an SF. We don't know enough details about what the actual situations will be yet to say I'd choose one over another, but for example, when CIG was asked whether shields mitigate spike missile damage, they did not answer. It's entirely likely the missile penetrates the shields and goes straight to hull, or it is possible the shields will protect from the missile's physical damage, or protect from all of it. We don't know.
We also don't know if the Sentinel's EMP module will fit with the Hoplite's marine module in place. There is a lot we don't know yet.
What we do know is the Hoplite was built for boarding actions, and the SF is one big, fat, slow, beckoning target. Maybe with the new turret enhancements attacking a SF will be harder, but I doubt it will be so hard the Hoplite will have much trouble.
You understand, if you rotate the SF, the turrets won't be able to stay on target. They'll be nearly useless. You need to wait until the last moment if you're going to rotate to stave off boarders.
We also don't know if the Sentinel's EMP module will fit with the Hoplite's marine module in place. There is a lot we don't know yet.
What we do know is the Hoplite was built for boarding actions, and the SF is one big, fat, slow, beckoning target. Maybe with the new turret enhancements attacking a SF will be harder, but I doubt it will be so hard the Hoplite will have much trouble.
You understand, if you rotate the SF, the turrets won't be able to stay on target. They'll be nearly useless. You need to wait until the last moment if you're going to rotate to stave off boarders.
I will be honest, in my opinion if your looking to travel through hostile territory or unprotected territory and your cargo is highly valuable I wouldn't even take the risk hire an escort and then you don't have to worry as much, odds are the cargo will pay for it and then some. Smaller ships with less valuable cargo where escorts aren't worth the cost will prolly just have to take the safer longer routes and settle for less profits to me this is how the game was designed and the whole purpose of having escort long range fighters and corvette type ships so you can make these runs into unfriendly/unprotected territory for the bigger profits and more rare items.
Now whose to say you can make these runs and never be attacked, odds are many people may do exactly that and make the bigger profits and higher rewards for less work and expenses but the one time they have a big expensive cargo haul and get jumped and lose their ship, cargo and prolly their life odds are they wont risk that again lol.
Now whose to say you can make these runs and never be attacked, odds are many people may do exactly that and make the bigger profits and higher rewards for less work and expenses but the one time they have a big expensive cargo haul and get jumped and lose their ship, cargo and prolly their life odds are they wont risk that again lol.
I totally agree with this. Valuable cargo, higher returns, bigger risk, and it will seem like the rise in risk is disproportionately large at times. I think we're also going to see smaller ships tagging along with a larger ship (for a fee). The fighters in escort will protect the large ship, but that actually allows the smaller ships a chance to escape. I don't see an escort paying a lot of attention to protecting a Freelancer or two when there's a Hull E paying their bills, but if they can use the focus of the battle to escape...
Aren't spike missiles just for establishing connection to the targets computer, so you can attempt to hacking it?
Assuming it does, you'd still need to get to 2200m or closer. While it's the heaviest duty EMP module at the moment, I'm not sure if it would work against heavier ships outright.
True, but isn't theorycrafting the best part of any game? :)
Not quite sure if the idea was that Hoplite would go around boarding solo. Usually boarding crafts etc. would be designed to be thrown at the target in numbers, with the assumption that some of them will be destroyed on approach. And that's when you assume the approach would be relatively quick, with the target much slower than the boarding craft, or perhaps even stationary, and the target would have their hands full fighting off other types of attack. Starfarer, however, isn't much slower, and if you don't bring anything with a tractor beam, it won't be stationary either before you get close. But the whole problem really is getting close if you're the sole attacker.
If it is a matter of 5 seconds at 1500m, then yeah, that is the last moment to start rotating. Besides, the top turret gets to stay on target half of the time, so only half useless. The bottom turrets get the other half of the time aswell. Of course the speed at which I'd rotate would depend on how much damage I'm really taking.
Well, it really depends on how much those escorts would slow you down and how frequently you'd really need them. Like if the trip takes 3 times as long because of coordinating with your escorts for a slower quantum travel, but you only get attacked every 3 runs and your ship can handle running away from 4 out of 5 attacks without escorts, and you've always insured your cargo anyways so losing it isn't a complete loss... Chances are running without escorts would be more profitable overall. Besides, losing insured escort ships could very well be just as costly as losing insured cargo, even while taking into account that insuring cargo probably costs more, but running multiple ships then also costs more. Oh, and it's not like just having escorts means 100% escape rate. It'll probably increase the escape rate, sure. But is the increase enough to justify the slower runs and the increased running costs?
I guess it's all about finding that balance.
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True, but the discussion was about which would be the best cargo ship for dangerous traderoutes, not what are the best trade practices.
Frankly, the best trade practice would be a convoy of trade ships, support and defensive craft. Say, a half dozen Hull-E's, two Vulcans, a Starfarer, and a Kracken or two, each with 4 small fighters and two medium fighters.
AccidentProne8
Space Marshal
I eventually wanted to use my Carrack and Tali to run cargo. I like the idea of repurposed ships. If you don't care about maximum efficiency then the world is your oyster.
I like the Carrack over the Gemini because you can presumably do some scanning on the side during your travels and reach out of the way jump points quickly - with a snub to boot if you're running solo and worried about your blind spots.
I like the Carrack over the Gemini because you can presumably do some scanning on the side during your travels and reach out of the way jump points quickly - with a snub to boot if you're running solo and worried about your blind spots.
I think these are closely intertwined issues. You can't make a good decision about what to bring into danger unless you know what the danger is vs your ability to handle it. I don't put a lot of stock in AI.
But I think that this idea
has a lot of merit in some ways.It's just that the larger convoys are going to be a logistical nightmare.
you guys are discussing big ships like fuel and crew don't cost anything
the energy required to accelerate/decelerate will always be proportional to mass
this ain't Eve Online here
the energy required to accelerate/decelerate will always be proportional to mass
this ain't Eve Online here
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Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
Okay so, if it were me, I likewise would not want to attack anything as large as an SF with just one ship. I actually theorycrafted an outline for 3 Vanguards attacking in small groups about a year or so ago, and I think I did a scenario with a Warlock and a Cutty, but I'll indulge again this time with just the one ship.
I would not attack any SF unless I was ideally situated, meaning I was slightly fore of a beam position, so that it would not be able to stop flying into my direct assault on its side. Also I would want to circle so only one turret faced me.
Okay so the SF does not see me before I launch my first slavo of Arresters and can't react until I've launched my second--both let fly while outside the SF guns range. Lets say the SF has upgraded to a single Parapet shield--98k protection. All 8 of the Arresters hit for 36k and he is down to 62k shields.
Closing at 1km/s, I am not in range of his guns until 3.7km. He is in range of my 4 EVSDs at 2.2 km, so he has about 1.5 seconds free shots if he has a target. The Vanguards all straif at about 50 m/s^2. The Hoplite is going to be very hard to hit until it is very close, so long as it's flying defensive on the way in. I would not be surprised if in that first 1.5 seconds the SF takes 4k distortion damage to the shields, and takes no hits. When the Hoplite's big gun finally comes to bear, the shield is down to 58k.
Then the real business happens. The Vanguard's combined nose guns do 17,880 distortion dps, so if they're all hitting, the shields come down in 3.2 seconds and the computer almost immediately afterward. During that last stage of flight the Vanguard will need to slide through a turn and start to circle to match velocities, and again it is going to be hard to hit. However, if the biggest turret on the SF locks on it with its pair of Revenants, and every one of those shots hit for a full 5 seconds, they could do as much as 6,720 damage to the Hoplite. Lets be generous and suppose all those shots hit the same shield. If it's flying stock shields (not recommended) that shield will go from 21,000 to 15,100. The SF's biggest guns barely make a dent. If half that damage flies through the shields (Rev's are ballistic) it will take about 3k damage. The hull of the Hoplite is 31.8k. It can shrug off <10% damage.
Now you can quibble. You can say "oh yeah, but not all the shots from the Vanguard nose will hit" or "not all the early shots from the SF will miss", but the numbers are all so in favor of the Hoplite that your take away needs to be that it is never safe to fly in hazardous space alone. You can say, "oh, flying like that takes precision and experience and not all hunters will have pilots that can skid into an attack with their nose on target for several seconds at a time", but you don't need to be worried about shabby, inexperienced, unskilled , casual players. You need to be worried about the players that make this their primary playtime. Lots of these guys will be astonishingly good with their birds. BTW, the Hoplite doesn't need to be contented with a pair of 21k@ shields. It would likely use Raparts for this application, which are 32k@. Note too that the SF is decidedly in a worse situation if the owner decided to remove the ballistics and put all lasers in--in which case the Hoplite would take no damage at all.
This is why I keep saying you need to hire escorts. In dangerous space, pirates are going to be attacking and the attacker always has control of the time, place and details of engagement. A pirate crew could screw this up mightily and still take down your SF very quickly. The only ships that can fly dangerous trade routes alone are ships like the Idris, because most pirate clans would be crazy to attack a frigate. Even then a dedicated team will find a way.
Finally, lets talk a moment about how we were promised the game would really work. We were told the Sentinel will be able to mask its signature and pretend to be a ship that it is not.
So you're flying your SF along and spot a Vulcan off your port bow angling in slowly at his meager 210 m/s. He's going to pass in front of you. He hails you to ask if you need repairs. You chat him up politely and don't think much as he angles in a little tighter.
Suddenly there's a burst of speed and he seems to come in impossibly fast, passing just dozens of meters below you, where he pops his EMP. Your systems die, and you start to wonder what it is you can't see.
What you can't see is the interior of the Sentinal, where 10 NPC marines and 2 of the 3 PC's are excitedly readying to depart the ship. The turret gunner has command of Alpha squad--5 NPC marines, and the EM Specialist has command of the Beta squad--5 more sweaty, pissy NPC marines. The Sentinel's main guns blow one of the turrets off your ship before you know what's happening, and the Sentinel ejects 6 persons of dubious intent out into the void by that turret. The Sentinal then swings its ass around and allows the last 6 boarders to depart with breaching charges ready for the SF's rear cargo door.
You are butt-f#ucked. You were flying alone and you got what you deserve. Those f#cking marines were all standing in the Sentinel's open areas stabbing themselves with oxypens out of a crate and they all have full breathing tanks. You're about to have a dozen trained killers on your ship, and since the UEE does not provide ships with Emergency Destruct devices, what you're really wondering is whether they'll let you live or not. Given they've got your fully laden ship, they might think kindly on you and deposit you on the nearest asteroid.
It's dangerous out there in the middle of nowhere, and Chris Roberts has an imagination full of drama. Are you really sure you want to ever take a cargo transport somewhere outside the security of the UEE, alone? If what you want is the risk and excitement of combat, and a decent paycheck, don't you think it'd be safer and smarter to be the attacker rather than the attacked? You should come hunt bounties and Vanduul with the. . .oh well, we can't really say with whom.
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Even more reason to have a Starfarer. Free fuel, you just have to detour via that gas giant or nebula to get it. The crew you can pay by selling any extra fuel you collect. It may end up being the most cost efficient ship in the game even though it has a smaller cargo bay than things like the Cat.
I guess for normal cargo or standard cargo runs where you can buy insurance yes I get this but what about mining some super rare material or salvaging something you cant replace or that insurance does not apply to, say there are pirates or a pirate fleet just waiting for someone to mine or salvage something they cant do themselves and waiting for someone to do it this is where escorts will prove invaluable they will think twice attacking a large ship with escorts as opposed to no escorts and I would assume they have a contingent for someone trying to run.
Again a lot of unknowns but with that comes a lot of possible scenario's I cant imagine the only hauling/cargo runs available will be insured ones otherwise the risk is so small like you said it would make the game down right boring, there has to be risk vs reward and to me this is where those possibilities exist there has to be something so valuable that people are willing to kill or die for it, otherwise people will just ram their ship with cargo into the attacker and say oh well its insured lol.
Not quite sure if that's the best direction. It'll only take a second to aim 4xS5 + 2xS6 at anything roughly in front of it. And that's also where all the missiles are.
Well, if you're shooting from the max range, 9km, then sure, you probably wouldn't be detected. But Gemini has very good sensors, if you're 8m or closer and powered up, you're likely detected. Anyhow, in the next 4-6 seconds, the Parapet shield would regen some 10k-15k shield strength. I think you might want to save the missiles for later.
The S5s would be in range at 4.7km or 6km depending on model, and the S6s would be around hundred meters further. Regular Starfarer can do 4.7km with the pilots S4s also.
Well, if you're stationary while waiting for the starfarer to approach at 890 m/s, then yeah, you can strafe 50 m/s^2. If you're the one doing the approach, you'd either close in slower than the max speed, or you wouldn't strafe at 50m/s^2. Though if you found a stationary starfarer in space, that wouldn't be me, not with cargo anyhow. Now, if it was me who was piloting the starfarer, I'd be coming at you 890 m/s. Assuming you started strafing backwards while shooting, guess you'd be moving around 200m/s in the same direction (and then some tangential velocity on top of it). Then while turning your ship around, that takes 2.25s, you'd perhaps gain another 50m/s movement in the right direction (rest tangential). So after you've turned around and start really speeding after me, you're already over 1.4km behind. After that, to reach 890m/s so you don't fall any more behind, would take roughly 12 seconds. During this time, you'll have fallen ~4km more behind, and would then be approaching from 5.4km. Unless you've been dodging the shots, in which case you'd be further behind.
You'd only get around 2.2s for the full force from front, then the starfarer would be past you (assuming you were strafing backwards already). That is, if it was me piloting it.
Wait, even the regular starfarer has S5 guns on top turret. Gemini, once it gets its own turret models, would have S6. I'm not sure where you got S4 guns from? Gemini smaller turrets will supposedly be getting S4s tho. If Gemini doesn't get it's planned firepower and the only difference between the two starfarer variants ends up being few missiles traded for fuel intake, then yeah, I'll have no trouble ditching Gemini for Carrack. Or some other ship with more cargo capacity.
Hoplite part titled 'Body' is 4800hp, Nose 9600Hp, Wings 1800Hp each... not sure where you got 31.8k?
Gemini has 9 Arrester IIIs, surely those would be used as well?
Only the ones you focus on. Starfarers sensor array, relative speeds of the ships, and the fact that the starfarer only needs to survive the encounter 37 seconds (assuming those new S3 QDs hit the shops, 52s on base model), starting from the moment it left quantum. I don't think you can succeed in an attack against a competent player without bringing some sort of quantum interdiction device, and even then ship that uses the QI device will be kinda easy to pick out, it's the one that is burning hot and is barely maintaining shields. Few volleys of missiles and couple of blasts as you're gaining distance (they got no idea which direction your speed will be when you drop out of quantum, so you'll have full 890 m/s head start) and that'll hopefully deal with the interdiction capabilities of the group.
Well, it currently doesn't come with ballistics. Though would it then be better to fill the turrets with distortion weapons? After all, the Starfarer just wants to get away.
Well, if you think a solo hoplite can take down a gemini that doesn't royally screw up, then what would couple escorts achieve against a proper attack?
Well, unless you bring something to block the jump, the attacker is limited to the time it takes for QD cooldown and spooling.
I mean, if you'll do anything in 210 m/s, I'll be long gone. The speed doesn't drop below 890 m/s anywhere where I'm not landing (or whatever the max speed is on moons/planets). I don't stop to chat while hauling cargo, and I'll only be polite from a system or two away. Any ship, regardless if it's a dragonfly or even just a guy riding on a space rock, is probably part of an ambush of some sort and I will be taking distance. Maybe they'll deploy a beacon. Maybe they'll summon an Idris. The only place where I'd be within 5km of an unknown ship is a spaceport with turrets. If there is someone at an outpost I was planning on landing on, I'll pick another, that one is either a trap or picked clean anyhow. And when I land on an outpost, I'll probably have an AA cyclone deployed by a player in my party. That and the top turret can then provide cover while we do the trade, should anything show up. It's not much tho, might need to experiment and figure that part out. Could be I'll find routes that are relatively safe on both ends, but the travel in between is dangerous enough to deter a number of other traders, leaving me with the window for profits.