CitizenCon Cancelled

[Blind Owl]

"Safety" and "Freedom" are seldom defined, so often misunderstood, and in truth rarely obtained by fiat. As a retired veteran, expat and professional motorcycle instructor, it is my opinion that "safety", especially the brand referred to as "Public Safety", is an illusion.

Depending on your worldview, following the "whatever you want" path is to it's logical conclusion is ultimately disastrous for all involved. But the idea of a small group dictating terms to the larger group has little historical support of working any better, when followed on it's logical path. There is an incredibly strong argument that the more controls placed by the smaller group on the larger, the closer it is to failure as a society.

Society is built from individuals. These individuals need their rights recognized to be able to function as humans. BUT, those same humans must also exercise the responsibilities that come with being in a society. Some percentage, large or small depending on the times, choose not to be responsible toward others. This is an element that is missing in the public discourse today. It wasn't always.

Massively oversimplifying it: do you want to build a society on weak bricks, or strong bricks? There are wide spectrum of examples in the world today, plenty of data to work with and compare to your own values/biases/understanding.


I don't usually bother debating this stuff anymore. It's been many years since anyone has presented any form of unique thought or argument that was more than wishful thinking. But if you want to understand a bit of where my opinion comes from, a good starting point would be the histories of Cambodia and the south African region over the past 200 years or so.

As much as I approve of Canada's approach to the entire situation right now, I also agree with your point of view: people must be allowed to be individuals, and be trusted to do the responsible thing when needed as part of society.

I think that if these stay at home orders were something that happened more often, I'd be reluctant to support. But as a temporary measure put in place during an emergency, I have no issue with it, especially considering the number of people who, at this time, would not do the responsible thing, thereby putting people like my wife in danger. More danger than she deals with already.

I don't personally view the current stay at home orders and shut down of non-essential services to be a small group imposing their will on the large. I view it as responsible government taking action to protect the masses from a deadly disease.

I must say that I very much respect the way your presented your case here, and I find, as I've already stated, that I concur with what you're saying. Kudos.

No, that's the homeless camp on the other side of I-5. Easy way to make some quick friends if you are into that.

I'm thinking more crafted beer and whiskey, food made by people who give a damn, and a lot of rain.. ;)

All these things we can find on the left coast. Along with the weed (which I don't smoke, but have no issues with).

God I'd love to get together and meet all you folks.

 

[Montoya]

Man, I lived in Van for a long time - never wore sandals and socks. Really good weed though.

Im new in the area and all Ive seen so far is the inside of my house.

They say its nice outside, I dont know, maybe Ill explore the rest of the region one of these months when this is all over. :D

 

[Montoya]

people must be allowed to be individuals, and be trusted to do the responsible thing when needed as part of society.

This is the tricky part.

If all the individuals of a society where capable of making logical decisions based of the right information, I too would have complete faith in my society to do whats right.

Our biggest problem is that logic varies from person to person, and information swings from completely batshit insane to absolutely scientifically accurate based upon your preferred source.

 

[Aramsolari]

Im new in the area and all Ive seen so far is the inside of my house.

They say its nice outside, I dont know, maybe Ill explore the rest of the region one of these months when this is all over. :D

This region is really about the outdoors. If you're a partying, clubbing, urban culture type this region sucks.

If you're into stuff like hiking, skiing, camping, etc. There are few places in the world better than BC.

 

[Montoya]

If you're into stuff like hiking, skiing, camping, etc. There are few places in the world better than BC.

I hear there are trees and mountains close by, is this true?

 

[Aramsolari]

This is the tricky part.

If all the individuals of a society where capable of making logical decisions based of the right information, I too would have complete faith in my society to do whats right.

Our biggest problem is that logic varies from person to person, and information swings from completely batshit insane to absolutely scientifically accurate based upon your preferred source.

Exactly.

I'm all in favor of personal freedoms and all that but people aren't the same. The reality is that I don't trust most people to exercise logic and common sense.

 

[Aramsolari]

I hear there are trees and mountains close by, is this true?

Very true. We have a couple trees and mounds lying about.

 

[Blind Owl]

Im new in the area and all Ive seen so far is the inside of my house.

They say its nice outside, I dont know, maybe Ill explore the rest of the region one of these months when this is all over. :D

Quite gorgeous. As a matter of fact, probably the most gorgeous area of North America.

This is the tricky part.

If all the individuals of a society where capable of making logical decisions based of the right information, I too would have complete faith in my society to do whats right.

Our biggest problem is that logic varies from person to person, and information swings from completely batshit insane to absolutely scientifically accurate based upon your preferred source.

100% agree. I should have stated "in a perfect world, people should be trusted". However, as you've stated, people have far different concepts of logic and common sense. Therefore, in a time such as this, having measures put in place is a necessity.

Exactly.

I'm all in favor of personal freedoms and all that but people aren't the same. The reality is that I don't trust most people to exercise logic and common sense.

Same same. The reality of what should be commonn sense and what prevails necessitates the measures we've put in place. Especially when it comes to public safety.

 

[SoloFlyer]

"Safety" and "Freedom" are seldom defined, so often misunderstood, and in truth rarely obtained by fiat. As a retired veteran, expat and professional motorcycle instructor, it is my opinion that "safety", especially the brand referred to as "Public Safety", is an illusion.

Depending on your worldview, following the "whatever you want" path is to it's logical conclusion is ultimately disastrous for all involved. But the idea of a small group dictating terms to the larger group has little historical support of working any better, when followed on it's logical path. There is an incredibly strong argument that the more controls placed by the smaller group on the larger, the closer it is to failure as a society.

Society is built from individuals. These individuals need their rights recognized to be able to function as humans. BUT, those same humans must also exercise the responsibilities that come with being in a society. Some percentage, large or small depending on the times, choose not to be responsible toward others. This is an element that is missing in the public discourse today. It wasn't always.

Massively oversimplifying it: do you want to build a society on weak bricks, or strong bricks? There are wide spectrum of examples in the world today, plenty of data to work with and compare to your own values/biases/understanding.


I don't usually bother debating this stuff anymore. It's been many years since anyone has presented any form of unique thought or argument that was more than wishful thinking. But if you want to understand a bit of where my opinion comes from, a good starting point would be the histories of Cambodia and the south African region over the past 200 years or so.

I think I can agree with everything you say. I still think however, at this time and under these circumstances, the rights of the individual (specifically the right of assembly) need to be reined in for the good of all. Especially when we have beaches full of college kids and the idea that cancelling a large convention makes one a p***y, despite the ease of transmission and the threat to even the healthy, let alone the vulnerable. The irresponsibility of the few is a danger to the many, not just themselves.

 

[Blind Owl]

I think I can agree with everything you say. I still think however, at this time and under these circumstances, the rights of the individual (specifically the right of assembly) need to be reined in for the good of all. Especially when we have beaches full of college kids and the idea that cancelling a large convention makes one a p***y, despite the ease of transmission and the threat to even the healthy, let alone the vulnerable. The irresponsibility of the few is a danger to the many, not just themselves.

This.

 

[Montoya]

How did we even end up on this topic?

I thought we are supposed to be mourning the cancellation of Citizencon!

I demand more mourning and crying!

We can all learn from North Korea, they do this the right way!

 

[ColdDog]

am all for opening the economy back up if we can do so safely.

Yeah... so when I was a kid skiing in Colorado, nobody wore helmets. Today kids are bubble wrapped, with helmets, knee pads, and all this other crap. There is no safe bubble, it is an illusion, people need to stop being pussies and come out and play.

 

[ColdDog]

You being very vitriolic my friend.

I am sorry, but I think people need a kick in the ass to face reality.

 

[maynard]

View attachment 15715

I see a barbie and a swing set, but no beer cooler

how is this survival mode?

 

[Blind Owl]

How did we even end up on this topic?

I thought we are supposed to be mourning the cancellation of Citizencon!

I demand more mourning and crying!

We can all learn from North Korea, they do this the right way!

View attachment 15726

Me, facing no CitizenCon.

I am sorry, but I think people need a kick in the ass to face reality.

I think you and I live in very different realities. Such is life.

 

[Blind Owl]

I see a barbie and a swing set, but no beer cooler

how is this survival mode?

Behind me on the deck. Right beside the lounger.

Edit: wait, Barbie? Lol
Edit edit: BBQ. I'm an idiot. Hahaha

 

[ColdDog]

I think you and I live in very different realities. Such is life.

Agreed, to each his own.

 

[ColdDog]

I still think CIG is bunch of PUSSIES... move it Colorado.

 

[Aramsolari]

Calling CIG 'a bunch of pussies' isn't helpful. They're a private business. You know, businesses that have to take into account risks and liabilities. Last thing they want is a bunch of internet spaceship neckbeards to get sick at a company sponsored convention and sue them. I actually see this as a plus. They can actually allocate the resources they'll otherwise spend on the convention into...I dunno...finishing the game.

 

[August]

Well this *is* going well.