The Need for Multiple Speeds.

[Zookajoe]

Just saw this, was wondering what others take on it is?

I am of the mind that this might actually make flight in general more interesting, given that it better caters to the strengths/weakness of ship types.

 

[breadbin]

This looks like a really good choice to me. I see all of their reasoning and think it works out well, and if it shakes out the way it's presented it'll do a lot to level the playing field between all the ship weight classes. After all, the current meta is all down to how you can't hit the two smallest fighters available, and this turns that on its head.

 

[Dirtbag_Leader]

Sounds pretty good to me, and you can tell that all of the designers were genuinely, truly happy with how it's worked for them in testing, so I think that lends credence to the whole thing. The one drawback that I see is it seems like you will have a hard time withdrawing and running from a combat situation if you get engaged and then decide you're outmatched, but hey, that's life sometimes, right?

 

[Sky Captain]

CIG's quest to make space combat more skillful is a great thing.

How they get to that is a question. It sounded to me like they are on the right track. But it remains to be seen / tested with community game play.

 

[breadbin]

Sounds pretty good to me, and you can tell that all of the designers were genuinely, truly happy with how it's worked for them in testing, so I think that lends credence to the whole thing. The one drawback that I see is it seems like you will have a hard time withdrawing and running from a combat situation if you get engaged and then decide you're outmatched, but hey, that's life sometimes, right?

Got a feeling that they won't quite see that issue until it hits PU and gets a few rebalances to make it easier to escape. No shields when you're a civvie trying to escape sounds like a horrid time, it'll take some experience in a live environment to see how to mitigate it.

 

[CosmicTrader]

Sounds great for SQ 42 --- Single Player and PvE combat.
Also, in SQ 42 we will be fighting only Criminal and Vanduul combat ships.

In the PU with Multi-Player and PvP combat ... we may find that any non-combat ships (Trade, Transport, Mining, Salvage, Medical, Exploration, Luxury, etc.) are just Cannon Folder and thus useless.
--> Have you noticed how long it takes for shields to be fully powered on these ships (Constellation as an example). Useless cannon folder for the pew pew jocks.
--> Yes they keep talking about Multi-crew and Escort game play but a very large percentage of backers play mostly Solo and for short periods ( as RL time permits)

My personal belief is;
I think when this goes to the PU the DEVS will have to make serious adjustments for these ships. (Non-combat type ships)

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My point exactly;

Got a feeling that they won't quite see that issue until it hits PU and gets a few rebalances to make it easier to escape. No shields when you're a civvie trying to escape sounds like a horrid time, it'll take some experience in a live environment to see how to mitigate it.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

Sounds pretty good to me, and you can tell that all of the designers were genuinely, truly happy with how it's worked for them in testing, so I think that lends credence to the whole thing. The one drawback that I see is it seems like you will have a hard time withdrawing and running from a combat situation if you get engaged and then decide you're outmatched, but hey, that's life sometimes, right?

I was interested in the Speed changes. As so eobe who has stayed alive because ey are in a ship no one else could catch, this might adversely affect my ability to stay alive.

Being a Runner was one of if not the only dominant mechanic available to non-combat players to keep out of unwanted confrontation. I

Are all the fish are being hurded into the same barrel...? Or is this an attempt to level the field and allow Running to be an option available to players not flying a 350r?



EDIT - Now I've watched the video its encpuraging to hear the devs have found it enjoyable and it works for them, a few questions:

A) Have they tested this from a combat perspective but have they tested from a noncombatent perspective to ensure it functions as intended i that regard?

2) Why was this not acchieved with the Coolers rather than introducing Handvavium? The engines shut down if they overheat but they shou le be eating up capacity of the coolers to cool the weapons and shields which will nerf those systems for recharge/regen for fighter pilots going too fast using existing mechanics etc.

iii) I will be spending my time in fast mode: do i have to equip a shield if i will never have it turned on? Will my ship be vulnerable to micrometeor and other space junk strikes if my shield is off in fast mode?

 

[RoosterRage]

The important thing to remember is that they stated yesterday in another portion of the event that radar ranges are going to be increased greatly to over 100 kilometers, so making a choice to leave the area before a fight breaks out should not be a problem with the 6 second quantum boost spool they showed, they even discuss it in this video about leaving the area if you think another ship may be shady or taking the chance.

 

[Zookajoe]

The two modes of travel does have advantages I feel, especially for non-combat haulers.
You just stay in Quantum Mode.
In QM, you can easily outrun any ship in SCM mode, the fastest they can go is 300mps or so, while you can do up to 1200+mps dependent upon the ship.

We don't know how Quantum Drive works, if they say that having shields up and external weapons charged disrupts the quantum field, who are we to say it does not?

As to micrometeors and small space junk, that is what the ship hulls are for, designed to absorb these smaller impacts with little wear and tear.

All told, I think the two modes would benefit the non-combat types more than the current situation.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

The two modes of travel does have advantages I feel, especially for non-combat haulers.
You just stay in Quantum Mode.
In QM, you can easily outrun any ship in SCM mode, the fastest they can go is 300mps or so, while you can do up to 1200+mps dependent upon the ship.

We don't know how Quantum Drive works, if they say that having shields up and external weapons charged disrupts the quantum field, who are we to say it does not?

As to micrometeors and small space junk, that is what the ship hulls are for, designed to absorb these smaller impacts with little wear and tear.

All told, I think the two modes would benefit the non-combat types more than the current situation.

Hope you are right Zook, the Spirit Q&A may be the first one I pop a question on, asking if I need to install a shield if Fast Mode means it's not switched on - ships like the Raft and Prospector will be mince if caught even with a shield so what's the point in bothering with one? :)

I think I have to look further into this and the complications etc, it's interesting and trying not to get on a downer with it :)

 

[Deroth]

The shields completely turning off and countermeasures I see as the only real issue, I like everything else.
I personally feel these two changes give an excessive benefit to pirates and griefers as this system will give them a massive advantage over non-combat (traders, miners, etc.) as well as against bounty hunters.
Pirates and griefers will be able to just simply camp out where they know non-combat and bounty hunters will drop out of QT then blast them before they can do anything. Additionally, they can ambush traders while they're stuck dealing with the soon to come extremely long cargo loading times, giving them now chance to run away. With these two changes, profit margins on trading will have to be increased to levels CIG has previously indicated they don't want to go to so traders/haulers can afford to employ crew and escorts (but since CIG listens to players complaining about trading/hauling being 'too' profitable they have indicated they want to keep it 'in-line' with the profit margin of flying missions.)

 

[Zookajoe]

To help foil pirates and griefers, as soon as you come out of QT, quantum boost. If they have weapons and shields charged, there is no way they can catch you if you q-boost. Now if they have something blocking quantum travel, well you are screwed anywho. They would have to have impeccable timing to be able to destroy your ship in the half second or so that it takes to go to q-boost.

I am sure there is some fleshing out still needed, but I am seeing this more as a benefit rather than a game breaking event.

 

[Zookajoe]

Just a bit of an update. Looks like when you come out of Q-Mode, the shields come back almost instantly.

 

[Cugino83]

Hope you are right Zook, the Spirit Q&A may be the first one I pop a question on, asking if I need to install a shield if Fast Mode means it's not switched on - ships like the Raft and Prospector will be mince if caught even with a shield so what's the point in bothering with one? :)

I think I have to look further into this and the complications etc, it's interesting and trying not to get on a downer with it :)

That is good question... I suppose for ship like the largest hauler (HULL D and above) they became a surpluss, since they are suppose to spend the all the time travelling around and not fighting and in case of truble they should have escort anyway...

What I see, due to the lack of information, is a compleate trash of stealth component: stealth components are mean to reduce your signature while travelling so you are harder to detect, but since travel disable your shield anyway what's the point of having a low emission one? For combat that is garbage anyway since the closer range make you visible and detectable anyway.
It feels for me that the whole stealth mechanics will be toss into the bin with this dual mode.

Another interesting thing to be tested out will be how the EMP will work.
Shield are not "disable" in the sense they are turned off, is more a poweroff of the emitter since they came up full power almost instantly, but while the emitters are off does the shield accumulated energy still protect you or this count as disable? Becouse in the second case EMP and distorsion weapons have anice easy target (as long as it stay in range).

To help foil pirates and griefers, as soon as you come out of QT, quantum boost. If they have weapons and shields charged, there is no way they can catch you if you q-boost. Now if they have something blocking quantum travel, well you are screwed anywho. They would have to have impeccable timing to be able to destroy your ship in the half second or so that it takes to go to q-boost.

I am sure there is some fleshing out still needed, but I am seeing this more as a benefit rather than a game breaking event.

I'm not shure about the quantum dampering blocking at this point, at least if that will work like now preventing you to engage the QT.
If you could stay in quantum-mode (the non combat one just to be clear), you'll still be way faster then the attaker and could easily reach the safe distant to resume your QT.
On the other hand if the quantum dampering work by preventing you to engage the non-combat mode, then yes, you are screwed upbadly... sometime even more, since your speed will be capped at the one that a cobat ship ccan pray on you.

 

[RoosterRage]

Just a bit of an update. Looks like when you come out of Q-Mode, the shields come back almost instantly.

This is correct Yogi confirmed this on spectrum your ship holds the shield charge and when switching back to SCM applies the charge and brings the shields back up and they are not affected if someone shoots you as in preventing shield recharge.

 

[Ayeteeone]

Edit: I like that they are trying. Not as sure that I like what they are trying for. Engaging in combat should be a 'stop and think moment' for either side, and this does not seem to go in that direction. We will see; as always the devil will be in the details.

DecoupledPilot did a Spectrum post collecting what was said in the show, and Yogi's responses to some of the flaming.

Things to know about SCM and QCM that some seem to have missed - Star Citizen Spectrum

Reading the memes and complaints and worries about the upcoming master modes I really get the feeling that people missed a few bits of information on this. So let us summarise. Here the full video...

robertsspaceindustries.com

From Yogi himself :


YogiKlatt_CIG@YogiKlatt-CIG

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/wtf-cig-1/5404892
@HailStorm32, we didn't really have time to cover all aspects of the changes. Here are some details on the shield interaction:

When you swap SCM to QCM, you're shields will not instantly blink away. I am not sure if that was visible in the videos but they collapse fluently while the quantum drive spools up. So if the mode swap has achieved 50% your shields will be down by 50%. However the shield health you had before is not completely lost but dumped into a reserve pool (the max amount being a property of the equipped shield generators) where it remains while you are in QCM. When you swap back to SCM, that shield health is immediately pumped back into the shield faces. This takes a couple of seconds but unlike normal shield regeneration that process cannot be interrupted by weapon impacts of any sort. So ships get a part of their defensive capabilities back after some seconds. Hope that clears it up.

 

[Richard Bong]

Just saw this, was wondering what others take on it is?

I am of the mind that this might actually make flight in general more interesting, given that it better caters to the strengths/weakness of ship types.

I was left with two questions.
1. Is this the final vision for space (and atmospheric) combat?
2. Why isn't it part of 3.18 or 3.19 at the latest?

 

[Ayeteeone]

I was left with two questions.
1. Is this the final vision for space (and atmospheric) combat?
2. Why isn't it part of 3.18 or 3.19 at the latest?

1) Don't know, doubt anyone at CIG knows. Willing to bet a LOT of $$ though that if Yogi AND CR are genuinely happy with the results, it's staying.

2) Rhetorical question? During the video Yogi pointed out that the SQ42 ships are tuned, but not the rest of the ships available in the PU. In order to do that and make it worthwhile, most of the other relevant systems should probably also be in place.

I dunno.. the development cycle doesn't bother me, I've been a project manager. But the gameplay direction seems strongly focused toward Predator/Prey - overdoing that will kill the fun for most I think.

 

[Deroth]

1) Don't know, doubt anyone at CIG knows. Willing to bet a LOT of $$ though that if Yogi AND CR are genuinely happy with the results, it's staying.

2) Rhetorical question? During the video Yogi pointed out that the SQ42 ships are tuned, but not the rest of the ships available in the PU. In order to do that and make it worthwhile, most of the other relevant systems should probably also be in place.

I dunno.. the development cycle doesn't bother me, I've been a project manager. But the gameplay direction seems strongly focused toward Predator/Prey - overdoing that will kill the fun for most I think.

Exactly, I've seen quite a few people on Spectrum the past few days pointing out that the fundamental problem with every single one of the flight models CIG has implemented is they first design it around the Gladius, test it with the fighters in SQ42 the players get to use, then try to shoehorn it into SC...where it falls apart at the seems due to it not scaling well to the other hundred some odd ships not in SQ42...rinse...repeat. That this entire logic is backwards as SQ42 is only expected to be played for I think they said something like 30-40 hours average per player, but SC is where they are targeting having players putting in hundreds to thousands of hours, so instead the flight model should be designed around the ships in SC then balance SQ42 around that.
While some might point out the adage of 'how does a mouse eat an elephant?' (one bite at a time), the fallacy in this is that the mouse starts out knowing it is tackling eating an elephant, but CIG's design approach has been the mouse starts out thinking it is eating a small bite of cheese, then is shocked it actually has an entire elephant to get through...walks away when it hits so many bones it gets annoyed, then goes looking for a new bite of cheese only to realize it has once again started trying to eat an elephant.

 

[Richard Bong]

1) Don't know, doubt anyone at CIG knows. Willing to bet a LOT of $$ though that if Yogi AND CR are genuinely happy with the results, it's staying.

2) Rhetorical question? During the video Yogi pointed out that the SQ42 ships are tuned, but not the rest of the ships available in the PU. In order to do that and make it worthwhile, most of the other relevant systems should probably also be in place.

I dunno.. the development cycle doesn't bother me, I've been a project manager. But the gameplay direction seems strongly focused toward Predator/Prey - overdoing that will kill the fun for most I think.

The "rest of the ships" are numbers in a database that any intern could enter in a couple of days, and it could be proof read within a week. What relevant systems are there for this? We already have space combat. If its not going to work, it is better to find out sooner instead of later. The proper terminology is "fail fast."