The Tally

[Shadow Reaper]

I’ve wanted to revisit this ship since she had her SCM speed increased. It was always the Retaliator’s dreadful combat speed that put me off her. I can clearly recall from my first days in the game, falling in love with what reminded me of the B1 bomber, or “Bone”, which she is clearly modeled after. She’s half Bone and half Seaview.

The Tally’s SCM has been brought up to 200, and her NAV to 1,000. So she is now a competitive warship. She has several other things changed, chief amongst them probably, that she has 6 S2 shields. Also of key note is that unlike almost all other ships in her size class that have 16k IR signature, she projects only 12k. Count me interested.

I like stealth and I love Sukoran shields, because they require much less power, generate much less signature, and partially block ballistics. Turns out having at least a single Sukoran onboard has interesting outcomes.

Let’s suppose for a moment that the current narrative is true and when armor is a thing, it will bring with it the Void Armor option, that provides -40% EM, IR and RCS signatures, just as in the Sabres, Ghost Hornet, etc. You equip that, and make flying with all weapons, and 5 of the 6 shields off, and your stealth switch on, your Standard Operating Procedure. That should give you EM and IR signatures of just 8k. That’s a really great sig for such a large ship, especially with a ballistic blocking shield running, and entirely because of your stock 12k IR.

That makes every form of the Tally stand out. What are there, 6 different combinations of modules? Combined with 6 shields and 5 turrets? And torps. And Titansuits. And living quarters. And VTOL.

The refresh rate on 6 shields must make it our best Close Air Support platform.

Unconfirmed, but spviewer says the manned turrets can be replaced by the X85 twin S2 remote turret, which would hand it off to pilot control. If that’s true and you replaced three of them, the pilot would have say, 6 Attrition 2 with ~3,000 dps.

Definitely worth checking. Don’t neglect to check out the gold pass updated ship sounds. Bangin’!

 

[Talonsbane]

Interesting ideas in regards of gaining additional stealth in an approach. What if you had an ARGO STV tow it, get up to speed, then after traveling towards the target for a while, suddenly cut the tractor beam & get out of the way of the Tally while it's desync'd? Which should allow for its engines to be cold from having been off. Might drop the heat signature by a point or so, just remember to fire them up immediately after launching the S9 torps to make the escape.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

Is the STV faster than the Tally? I would be surprised if that were true.

 

[Talonsbane]

Is the STV faster than the Tally? I would be surprised if that were true.

No, but my point was that if the STV towed the Tally from the start, so that the Tally never turned on its engines or thrusters, the heat signature should be lower than if the Tally flew itself to the destination.

 

[BUTUZ]

I have not done or thought about any of that advanced stuff. She flies nice. Just the right amount of gravitas.

All I know is. Test Tally is love. Test Tally is life.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

I’m right there with Talon. Sneaky Pete moves are what war is about. I agree, your idea bears serious investigation.

I have had several friends ask how I would fit out the Retaliator. I suppose that’s worth mention despite how much components will change.

I would personally swap all 10 Panthers for Attrition III. Leave them all switched off and use the Voice Attack command to toggle between “Stealth” and “Battle Stations” to toggle them all on. Leave 1 Sukoran on and switch on/off 5 FR-76 with the same command. (Replace FR-76 with the new Competition B Haltor if spviewer has these stats right. All new to me.). Leave one Eclipse reactor on and toggle on/off a Genoa reactor to quadruple power with the same command. Equip 2 S3 Chillmax coolers and leave them on.

So far as I am aware, the Retaliator is the only ship with 2S2 reactors and 2S3 coolers. With only a stealth reactor and engines heating and 2 gigantic Industrial A coolers dumping 35,200 heat per second, the Tally has to be the record setter for fastest heat dump. It will dump any amount of heat generated within mere seconds and so reenter stealth after a hard engine burn. This makes towing for stealth a luxury notion, maybe not necessary (but still worth checking.). BUTUZ will need to tell us but it appears with everything on and afterburners glowing, the IR will never climb above about 11k with these coolers running. (Doesn’t matter. The EM will spike with all these shields running, but you don’t need to hide with them on. The shield refresh is insane, ~2,200/s and 40% ballistics. Not as good as an S3 shield, but not shabby at all. The difference is this ship can stealth.)

Given S2 Q Drives are so small and easy to handle, I would keep at least 2 aboard that maximize range or speed at the Captain’s discretion. Maybe a Civilian A Hemera for in between.

The only other question I see is whether the spviewer is correct that the turrets can be refit with X85 remote turrets wearing Attrition 2s. If that is true, I think it needs someone in the pilot seat to determine whether any of the three aft turrets can and should be given the pilot. The 2 foreword turrets are a no brainer, but if the pilot can get clear shots forward from 1 of the aft turrets, I’d be thrilled for the pilot to have 6 S2 guns, 2 turret gunners and an engineer. It’s a big ship but 4 players seems enough. 3 NPCs can stand security. There’s room to sleep 7, so I’m sure players will make different choices here. I prefer a crew of 4, including an engineer.

If you want to live aboard, you’ll need the rear module living quarters with galley, and have to get by with just 4 torps. Short missions you should be able to equip 6 torps. I wish you could swap out a module for computers, electronic warfare and S3 sensors. Maybe that’s a surprise CIG has for us.

This ship was made to disappear from sensors. That’s the only reason I can think they gave it 2S3 coolers.

BUTUZ is offering free rides to anyone who wants to check it out.

Edit: I made that last bit up.

 

[Sky Captain]

Interesting post. I get how warships need a strong 'heat dumping' capability to offset thermal energy generated by weapons, etc. in the thick of battle. But I'm not understanding how that translates to clear 'stealth capability' for the Retaliator. Are we saying that the Retaliator will be 'stealthy' compared to other vessels when it is idling in a stationary, non-firing situation?

 

[Shadow Reaper]

Yes, stealth really is only had with weapons off or if you load all ballistics and leave shields off. Shields and energy weapons both have high EM. Engines, reactors and systems put out high IR. IR is harder to reduce, which is why you have a stealth switch that dumps about 25% IR for 10% higher EM.

The exception to this rule about energy weapons is the Sabre, which was built with such extreme EM suppression that you can fire laser cannons at S1 ships from inside your stealth envelope. Pretty cool. See the YouTube vids of the Firebird pelting hapless victims with impunity. Nothing to do about that but run away screaming “do what you want to the girls but leeeeeave meeeee alone!”

There is an excellent chart at the bottom of each spviewer page that shows you exactly what is generating each. Neither spviewer nor erkul accounts for the stealth switch, so you have to do that calculation yourself, along with any future planning around stealth armor. Only ships that currently have stealth armor will get a good calculation in Erkul.

Stealth does not work with 10 lasers blasting and 6 shields glowing, but if you need to disengage, EM drops off the moment you power down weapons and shields. IR lingers, so having coolers that magically dump heat into subspace at a high rate is key to reestablishing stealth. Also in this case, the shields fully charge in 30 seconds, as compared to the Polaris in 193. That’s a huge difference you can leverage in combat.

In general, one supposes the Tally takes on the bomber role with shields off until it launches, and once it starts launching it powers up shields and weapons. However, to get where it will be effective it is greatly enhanced by stealth. So too if you want to use it to hunt bounties. So despite it needs shields up or down depending upon situation, the ability to excel at both is synergistic, especially now that it has enough speed to maneuver after a torp volley.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

This is the kind of theorycraft I come to Test for.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

That is very kind. One last word about stealth since Sky asked.

Players have been complaining for years that stealth is broken in game and you should ignore it when choosing components. This has never been true. Rather, the game works just how real stealth tech works. It does not provide invisibility and it never will. Instead, the point is to have a low enough signature that you can target opponents when they cannot target you.

Now the Tally is always going to have this against almost all opponents, because it’s main weapon, the S9 torp; has such extreme range. The benefit behind rigging and running for lowest signature is you don’t have to fire at 16-30km. You might approach to just 8. That yields a much higher chance for a successful hit. So too does the choice of Typhoon torps over Argos, which are much harder to shoot down. Most S3 ships and above will not be able to escape Typhoons at 8km, and they provide reliable one-shot kills up to and including Hercs, Hammerheads, Reclaimers, Redeemers, other Tallies, etc.

 

[Talonsbane]

This might be a bit stupid to say, but as they're also within the creations of Chris Roberts, I'm curious as hell if anybody at CIG has considered bringing the "Skipper Missile" into the Verse from the world of Wing Commander, except have it deployed as a torp that reacts in a similar manner to the previously mentioned missile. For a stealthy build Eclipse or Tally, those would be truly fearsome to face.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

I think the Skipper Missile was created by Isaac Asimov as part of his Berserker series of short stories. If Chris were to do this he’d need to invent a way to defeat it too. No easy task.

 

[NomadicHavoc]

How many times do I have to tell CIG…if they want to do stealth mechanics correctly, they need to implement a space shrubbery feature. I thought that would be obvious to anyone, but they don’t seem to ever listen.

View: https://youtu.be/Qe_Cw3xG11s?feature=shared

 

[maynard]

How many times do I have to tell CIG…if they want to do stealth mechanics correctly, they need to implement a space shrubbery feature. I thought that would be obvious to anyone, but they don’t seem to ever listen.

if you want to be a lurker you'll just have to make do with asteroid belts

life's a bitch in the 'verse

 

[Shadow Reaper]

View: https://youtu.be/zIV4poUZAQo?si=1n3NeObXYyj7lG7p

 

[Talonsbane]

I think the Skipper Missile was created by Isaac Asimov as part of his Berserker series of short stories. If Chris were to do this he’d need to invent a way to defeat it too. No easy task.

You're probably correct. I mentioned thinking that it was from CR because it was in the Wing Commander movie of his. Sorry for reminding of the cringe from the acting in that movie.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

I actually liked the movie and the acting. The dialog is a little flat at times but it’s still a fun film.

 

[Talonsbane]

I enjoyed the movie overall, but from my perspective, those 2 comedic actors (Prince & Lillard) trying to acting like that in a movie about a war for the survival of the human race, it destroyed the immersion for me. I believe they were chosen for their looks & popularity instead of their acting skills.

 

[Richard Bong]

I’ve wanted to revisit this ship since she had her SCM speed increased. It was always the Retaliator’s dreadful combat speed that put me off her. I can clearly recall from my first days in the game, falling in love with what reminded me of the B1 bomber, or “Bone”, which she is clearly modeled after. She’s half Bone and half Seaview.

The Tally’s SCM has been brought up to 200, and her NAV to 1,000. So she is now a competitive warship. She has several other things changed, chief amongst them probably, that she has 6 S2 shields. Also of key note is that unlike almost all other ships in her size class that have 16k IR signature, she projects only 12k. Count me interested.

I like stealth and I love Sukoran shields, because they require much less power, generate much less signature, and partially block ballistics. Turns out having at least a single Sukoran onboard has interesting outcomes.

Let’s suppose for a moment that the current narrative is true and when armor is a thing, it will bring with it the Void Armor option, that provides -40% EM, IR and RCS signatures, just as in the Sabres, Ghost Hornet, etc. You equip that, and make flying with all weapons, and 5 of the 6 shields off, and your stealth switch on, your Standard Operating Procedure. That should give you EM and IR signatures of just 8k. That’s a really great sig for such a large ship, especially with a ballistic blocking shield running, and entirely because of your stock 12k IR.

That makes every form of the Tally stand out. What are there, 6 different combinations of modules? Combined with 6 shields and 5 turrets? And torps. And Titansuits. And living quarters. And VTOL.

The refresh rate on 6 shields must make it our best Close Air Support platform.

Unconfirmed, but spviewer says the manned turrets can be replaced by the X85 twin S2 remote turret, which would hand it off to pilot control. If that’s true and you replaced three of them, the pilot would have say, 6 Attrition 2 with ~3,000 dps.

Definitely worth checking. Don’t neglect to check out the gold pass updated ship sounds. Bangin’!

The Tali is not, nor has it ever been intended to be stealthy. If you want stealth and Size 9 Torps, that is the Eclipse. Blades would allow pilot control for turrets and that would be manned or unmanned turrets (In theory).

There are only two turrets which are forward facing (Top and Chin), so how you get three turrets is beyond me.
Void armor is only on the Hornet S. It is a replacement armor for the standard armor on the Hornet. It has never been stated as universally available for replacement on other ships. (The Sabre and Eclipse start as stealth, and don't use "Void Armor.")

The Tali, with it's relatively large crew, multiple weapon mounts, size, torpedo load, speed and agility, is more Devil Boat than B-17 or Submarine.

The Elco 80 served as torpedo platform where they engaged with and sunk supply ships, supply barges and warships causing damage all out of proportion to their size.
They were also used for recon, troop insertion, troop retrieval, fire support for troop insertion and retrieval, courier, VIP transport, and high priority supply runs.

They, originally, came from the factory with 6 x .50 machine guns, a 20mm autocannon and a 40mm AAA cannon. They tended to be field modified with all sorts of things, like a mortar, Rocket Launchers, 37mm Anti-tank guns (Famously transferred from the Army in the dark of night for PT-109), 37mm Aircraft cannons, and whatever else they could "Strategically Transfer Equipment to an Alternate Location" (aka STEAL).

The Tali has the Torpedo payload, a Troop module, VIP Transport Modules, and Cargo Modules. It serves the same missions as the US PT boats of WWII.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

Richard, we’ve had this conversation before about your blanket statements concerning what you are sure does not exist, so I’ll just remind—it is logically impossible to show evidence toward a negative proposition. You can have no evidence for your position and there isn’t anyone who thinks you omniscient. There have been things posted this last decade you haven’t seen, and what you mean to say is you are “not aware of any promises about void armor becoming available when the armor refit comes”.

I guess we’ll see. Armor isn’t that far away. I do recall those statements and no, your complaining isn’t cause for me to look them up. We can wait and see.

As to applying rear turrets to the pilot, well there is indeed a hemispherical target zone on the aft ventral turret, so you can target anything below the ship from there. There is greater than hemispherical targeting from the fore dorsal turret, so both ventral turrets and the foreward dorsal turret can target simultaneously on the same subject so long as it is within a few degrees south of the horizon forward of the ship.

The same thing is true of the forward ventral turret—it can target above the horizon and share targets with all three dorsal turrets, so long as the target is just a few degrees above the horizon and foreword. It however has a smaller fire zone opposite its horizon than the forward dorsal turret.

Both of these “sharing zones” where 3-5 turrets can fire simultaneously on the same target are close to the pilot’s center view, but not center. So he can make use of them. He can’t make use of the very large shared zones abeam, not because the turrets don’t target there but because the pilot can’t see there.

And you know this. And you know we won’t know whether we can swap on Void Armor until we can swap armor at all. You know.

So tell us what else you know about why this ship has 2S2 reactors and 2S3 coolers. It’s the only ship like this.

We need to agree to disagree about the Tali emulating PT boats from WWII. PT boats were the fastest thing on the water and the Tally is obviously not that. But what does it matter? It is what it is.

Our job is to figure out how to use it. If we ever see a galley/mess for the rear module, I would fly this for bounties, exploration, etc. Could become a daily driver despite the less than stellar S2 scan. It feels like it could become home with the right module.