Will Exploration ships matter in 1.0 and beyond?

[Thalstan]

All,
I posted the below in the general SC forum on spectrum, but I also wanted to get the opinions of my fellow org members.

With the change in scope to SC, how will this impact exploration, which was one of the biggest interests people had in the game.

The reason I ask is that many of them have given up other features in favor of those "exploration" specific enhancements. Like the Aquila gave up the upper turret for a science/scanning station, or the DUR gives up a significant amount of cargo area?

The carrack was designed to find new jump points. Where as before they would be used to find new systems, will these now be used only to find "backdoor" routes between the 5 systems? Does the Carrack become a smuggling ship?

What about the Aquila, DUR, Odyssey? None of those were "designed" to find jump points, but were instead designed/intended to allow players to explore new worlds or find new things.

I don't want explorer ships to just be the "find the rock" or "find the lost ship" type of ship, but I suppose that's one thing they might be able to do. Maybe they will fly over uncharted territory to find resources?

So, to the people who design and develop the game, and to the people who play the game, what is the intended purpose of "exploration" ships under the new 1.0 future?

Give us an idea of how you intend the 315, DUR, Zeus ES, Aquila, 600i explorer, Carrack, Odyssey, etc. to be used under 1.0 as exploration ships, instead of just more expensive and less capable versions of other variants.

Thanks.

 

[Bambooza]

For 1.0 it does look like the role of explore will be limited to finding smuggling routes if they do enable transient worm holes, fleet tracking (think vanduul and enemy orgs) , and base location especially in Pyro to allow for raiding. To a limited part mineral finding but I'm not sure how extensive that will be.

Heck at this point I'm not sure we are going to get all of the ships like the Orion for large scale mining or the hull d and e. There are game play loops that do require aspects of scale that will be lacking in 1.0 .

 

[Shadow Reaper]

What is the new intel about exploration? I must have missed it.

 

[Thalstan]

What is the new intel about exploration? I must have missed it.

There is no new intel on it. That's what I am questioning. How are they going to make "exploration" ships worth it over other ships based on their new 1.0 MVP model.

Example, what will make the Aquila stand out over the much less expensive but more heavily armed Andromeda?
What value does the DUR bring that makes it worth having it over the base Freelancer or the MIS?
Why should we have a Zeus ES vs an CL (Exploration vs Cargo)
What will the Carrack actually do that a Caterpillar can't do better?

That's what I am asking.

 

[Ayeteeone]

Good questions on a topic that is near and dear. Some thoughts to add, but no good answers..

The scanning portion of exploring, particularly 'long range scanning' is dependent on server meshing. As the area of responsibility and managed entities are intended to be fluid numbers, it will be necessary for scanning to be able to retrieve the specific information from whatever DGS's are within range of the scan. So the ships which are supposed to be able to do that (Carrack? def. not the MSR per it's own Q&A) won't fully have their intended gameplay working properly until that system is complete.

As to your underlying question, I dunno. The understanding has always been that the Exploration class will always be the best choice when searching and generating information is the primary activity. The Terrapin is specifically stated for that; find all the things and sell the info. It's lack of SCU or any other tools for exploitation were very intentional design choices. This ALSO means that Data Running, another ignored profession, won't really be online until it has sources to get that data from.

For these ships to be worth while they need to provide something more to the explorer. With component design as described, it will be possible to swap an 'Exploration Radar' into any other ship. When this becomes the case, what will a Terrapin offer over putting the same Radar unit into a Vanguard Sentinel or a Crusader C1? This is, I think, at the root of your question. It has been said that certain ships would have bonuses to finding things IF they had certain dedicated characteristics, like the holotable viewer, or the Carrack's and Aquila's extending 'sensor arms'. This was never fully outlined either so to say anything else would be pure speculation. Not that I mind speculating, especially with an Irish coffee in hand...

315p - It's primary advantage is supposed to be coming with a higher grade radar. In the 3.24 patches it has lost it's QT range advantage, and the tractor beam + 12 SCU are head scratchers. Small Pathfinders in general don't seem to have any actual purpose without some kind of benefits from the specific chassis.

DUR - It's ability to refine H2 was based on the idea of searching in SCM over long periods of time. Right now it's hard to see any advantage from this. There is some old language about having better sensors.

Aquila - With the removal of scanners as a separate component, I genuinely do not understand what value the upper turret offers. I can look at MFD's on the flight deck. The Nursa definitely raised it's value, but again there are better options for any other gameplay.

Zeus ES - Larger radar is supposed to offer more range; in recent patches it has primarily offered better sensitivity over smaller units although the practical advantage is tiny. The trade off is that size 3 supposedly can't be changed in the field.

Carrack - This might be the easiest to see advantages when considering the sensor arms, the drones, the holotable room, med bay, Pisces hangar, garage, etc. But much of those are conveniences rather than actual improvements to it's core focus.

It has to be a hard balance to create ships that users will be willing to fight to save, while also making most of their characteristics interchangably generic. Choice are supposed to matter but so far it's only an illusion of choice, rather than any distinct benefit.

If you get any Dev responses to your posting please include or link them here. Some of us avoid Spectrum as much as practical, and I'm dead certain that many of the community comments on your post would qualify as a waste of time.

 

[Thalstan]

@Ayeteeone
Since you started the speculation, let me give you an idea of what I would consider "good options, but first the CIG exploration gameplay slide:

Exploration for them will be scan area or objects, map location, deploy objects, and find & collect.

So, go find a rock, go map a cave, deploy a sensor, find out what it is that's going "beep beep beep" (reference to Tessa Bannister for long term backers), and the CIG version of the WoW poop quest, and you get paid.

Instead, I would like to see the following at a minimum
1) Find valuables - no matter if it's a derelict or a pile of resources underground, the exploration ship will be equipped to find these types of things. Unlike standard ships, exploration ships will have scanners able to detect specific minerals at a far off scan location. This means if you detect something 22 km away, you can immediately tell if it has quantanium, gold, taranite, bexalite, etc associated with it. This allows explorers to find rare minerals faster. Once you get to the area and it spawns the rocks/ships/etc, you are able to scan the area of interest quickly and determine how much of each resource and a distribution of the rock sizes, plus the location of the area. Once you have done that, you can put that location with the elements involved up for sale upon return to any station.

2) recon - sometimes you need photos of a particular area. Some ships will be able to perform recon duty via a flyby. To successfully complete a recon mission, you must have a ship with the appropriate equipment (say, Hornet Tracker, 315P, etc), within a certain range for a certain amount of time. (maybe 15 seconds, maybe 30, maybe just a quick pass). The closer you get, the more time credit you get (so 15 km away is 1 for 1 in time, but within 1 km you might just need 3 seconds)

3) mapping of an area - Mapping is more than finding your way into a cave, but might include topographical or mineralogy of a an area. You go out and take multiple scans, and maybe even land and take samples of an area (core samples, not just surface mining) that you can bring back and report or sell depending on if you were hired or freelancing on your own.

4) identify wrecks - wrecks happen, but sometimes insurance wants to be sure the wreck actually happened, or maybe private individuals want to pay you to find out what happened with the ship. With an approximate starting location, you track and find the wreck, and then see if you can find any identification or survivors. While not dedicated S&R ships, exploration ships might have the ability to rescue stranded passengers of a wreck. For a individual, you might be able to find ships available for salvaging

5) identify alternate jump points. Primary jump points are well known. The ability to identify and map a secondary or tertiary jump point for smugglers, criminals, and journalists to use when trying to pass into certain systems. Even the UEE might want info if they are looking to insert covert agents into a criminal system.

6) Hearty systems - exploration vessels are designed to be resilient against many different environments, so they are better able to survive hostile environments like Pyro.

7) extended range - exploration ships should have much longer ranges than non explorer variants, and the ability to store more stuff, including various eva suits and hand scanners. Maybe fewer weapons.

8) other gameplay as appropriate.

 

[Thugari]

since they are cutting back on systems like they are, then exploration has now taken a back seat with me on what i was going to focus primarily on. I have my Aquila and Carrack and had plans on keeping it and adding an Odyssey to the mix. but now i am not sure if it will be worth keeping either of the large explorers. i guess i could hang on to my CCU of Carrack to Odyssey and then just upgrade it if i wanted. but at this point i only see have one as worth it at best, and my Aquila will definitely be easier to manage with only 5 systems.

 

[Ayeteeone]

since they are cutting back on systems like they are, then exploration has now taken a back seat with me on what i was going to focus primarily on. I have my Aquila and Carrack and had plans on keeping it and adding an Odyssey to the mix. but now i am not sure if it will be worth keeping either of the large explorers. i guess i could hang on to my CCU of Carrack to Odyssey and then just upgrade it if i wanted. but at this point i only see have one as worth it at best, and my Aquila will definitely be easier to manage with only 5 systems.

I don't see them cutting back on systems. We've known for years that the initial release would only be a handful. The big reveal regarding systems this year was actually that every planet will have hundreds to thousands of points of interest, instead of one or two. It was bluntly stated in the presentation that most locations will be procedural, and the players will likely be the first human eyes to see them.

The tools used to do this will be used to create all the other systems, with only the main landing zones being specifically crafted for purpose. Once this process is in place we could easily see a flood of content no one could keep up with.

As to exploration NOT related to a planetary body, I can't recall anything being said at all. :/ So in principle I agree with you, although my choice is the Zeus ES instead of the Aquila.

 

[Ayeteeone]

@Ayeteeone
Since you started the speculation, let me give you an idea of what I would consider "good options, but first the CIG exploration gameplay slide:

View attachment 26104

Exploration for them will be scan area or objects, map location, deploy objects, and find & collect.

So, go find a rock, go map a cave, deploy a sensor, find out what it is that's going "beep beep beep" (reference to Tessa Bannister for long term backers), and the CIG version of the WoW poop quest, and you get paid.

Instead, I would like to see the following at a minimum
1) Find valuables - no matter if it's a derelict or a pile of resources underground, the exploration ship will be equipped to find these types of things. Unlike standard ships, exploration ships will have scanners able to detect specific minerals at a far off scan location. This means if you detect something 22 km away, you can immediately tell if it has quantanium, gold, taranite, bexalite, etc associated with it. This allows explorers to find rare minerals faster. Once you get to the area and it spawns the rocks/ships/etc, you are able to scan the area of interest quickly and determine how much of each resource and a distribution of the rock sizes, plus the location of the area. Once you have done that, you can put that location with the elements involved up for sale upon return to any station.

2) recon - sometimes you need photos of a particular area. Some ships will be able to perform recon duty via a flyby. To successfully complete a recon mission, you must have a ship with the appropriate equipment (say, Hornet Tracker, 315P, etc), within a certain range for a certain amount of time. (maybe 15 seconds, maybe 30, maybe just a quick pass). The closer you get, the more time credit you get (so 15 km away is 1 for 1 in time, but within 1 km you might just need 3 seconds)

3) mapping of an area - Mapping is more than finding your way into a cave, but might include topographical or mineralogy of a an area. You go out and take multiple scans, and maybe even land and take samples of an area (core samples, not just surface mining) that you can bring back and report or sell depending on if you were hired or freelancing on your own.

4) identify wrecks - wrecks happen, but sometimes insurance wants to be sure the wreck actually happened, or maybe private individuals want to pay you to find out what happened with the ship. With an approximate starting location, you track and find the wreck, and then see if you can find any identification or survivors. While not dedicated S&R ships, exploration ships might have the ability to rescue stranded passengers of a wreck. For a individual, you might be able to find ships available for salvaging

5) identify alternate jump points. Primary jump points are well known. The ability to identify and map a secondary or tertiary jump point for smugglers, criminals, and journalists to use when trying to pass into certain systems. Even the UEE might want info if they are looking to insert covert agents into a criminal system.

6) Hearty systems - exploration vessels are designed to be resilient against many different environments, so they are better able to survive hostile environments like Pyro.

7) extended range - exploration ships should have much longer ranges than non explorer variants, and the ability to store more stuff, including various eva suits and hand scanners. Maybe fewer weapons.

8) other gameplay as appropriate.

Items 1 and 3-7 are all gameplay that has been discussed at various times and I expect to see. Genuinely if these don't show up then I'll be finding a new hobby (with apologies to Tessa) as these were my attraction to this game. 2 is a very cool idea that would give additional purpose to the Mako.

The scanning system we have right now is a placeholder. As shown a couple of years back, and in the SQ42 slice, Short Range scanning is something all ships will have where a ping can return information out as far as 50,000 km, and Passive detection to somewhere around 100km. I've not seen much solid information since then.

HOW all of this will work is a question. Mapping is a good example.. how close to a thing will a given ship and radar need to be to map it?? There is a tremendous amount of potential, and more than a few promises, but it really does feel ignored.

 

[Talonsbane]

I've always looked towards the exploration game play as "While having fun, see what you can find & sell what information you can to help others find it."

 

[Thugari]

I don't see them cutting back on systems. We've known for years that the initial release would only be a handful. The big reveal regarding systems this year was actually that every planet will have hundreds to thousands of points of interest, instead of one or two. It was bluntly stated in the presentation that most locations will be procedural, and the players will likely be the first human eyes to see them.

The tools used to do this will be used to create all the other systems, with only the main landing zones being specifically crafted for purpose. Once this process is in place we could easily see a flood of content no one could keep up with.

As to exploration NOT related to a planetary body, I can't recall anything being said at all. :/ So in principle I agree with you, although my choice is the Zeus ES instead of the Aquila.

i need to look into the Zeus ES, i know nothing about it.

 

[NomadicHavoc]

I wonder if they might end up merging the explorer and data running professions?

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

I don't think they'd call it 1.0 without all the planned mechanics in...?

 

[Thalstan]

I don't think they'd call it 1.0 without all the planned mechanics in...?

ROFL...oh man, I needed the laugh

 

[Ayeteeone]

I wonder if they might end up merging the explorer and data running professions?

To some extent I think that's inherent. In describing the MSR gameplay it was said that it might take missions to go scan an area and return the data. The ability to hack may become the difference, but who really knows?

I don't think they'd call it 1.0 without all the planned mechanics in...?

It would not be a huge stretch to put in Tier 0 courier missions for data, and I'm guessing those will come along with the new scanning system which we should have before 1.0.

Honestly I'm struggling to find a reason to keep the MSR. The concept was exciting but the execution kinda looks like a government project, especially how engineering is being implemented into it.

 

[Ayeteeone]

@Thalstan Been thinking about your original question... best guess is, Not for 1.0. At some point beyond that yes. Short version is that the replacement for scanning is already in the SQ42 dev build, we've seen it used in past presentations and the expectation is that it will be in the SC build by 1.0. IF they differentiate the radar performance in some specific way for the explorers, then those ships will matter. Otherwise it'll be a run-what-you-got so that everyone can participate.

Long Range scanning is probably where the explorers will be needed, but there is so little data to go on that I'm just speculating.

 

[Talonsbane]

I guess we'll have to wait for when we can "Explore" the possibilities more. lol

 

[BUTUZ]

I agree that exploration seems less and less likely to be a "trade" I mean they could have easily put some tier 1 basic exploration in by now, upgunning the exploration ships scanners significantly, you take a mission , going somewhere, finding something, reporting it back, getting paid. None of that needs any extra gameplay they could have literally used box delivery mechanics except you deliver a hard drive or something. Almost zero work their end.

Even if they didnt do that they could have made it so the exploration ships are able to find resources much better than normal ships - e.g. montoya hires me and my terrapin to go out and find those REAL BIG quantanium rocks and report the location back. Almost zero work their end.

But no. Just nothingness.

But hey lets concentrate on basebuilding instead as we can sell loads of basebuilding vehicles and land plots.

 

[Sky Captain]

Many of us related 'exploration' to CIG's early vision of 100 systems, wherein we might find new planetary destinations and jump points.

The challenge now is to redefine what exploration vessels bring to the table within the context of there being only 5 systems to initially explore.

So what does 'exploration' mean on that smaller scale? Things that came to mind for me on first thought:

+ Better planetary mapping on what is amounting to larger planets?
+ Better mineralogic/biologic/chemical, etc. scanning and resource detection features?
+ Better resource collection support features (harvesting exotic animals, etc.)?
+ Better scientific processing (ability to do something with the above resources) features?
+ Better valuable / treasure finding features?
+ Better individual player location (e.g., bounty hunting) features?
+ Better random jump gate detection features?
+ Better range for exploration / sightseeing features?
+ Better hardiness for hazardous atmosphere?
+ Better planetary landing party support features?

Looking at that, many of these seem to infringe on the roles of what I might have thought of science, medical, bounty hunting, or other resource-harvesting focused ships.

It makes me wonder if CIG might need to consolidate its science, exploration, medical, and resource ships into fewer overall categories when describing them.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

i need to look into the Zeus ES, i know nothing about it.

Medium ship with S3 scan, like the Apollo. Extended range and an extra S2 shield.

Players seldom value extended range but that may begin to change with Pyro open. Range is a constant concern with aircraft, watercraft, military planning, etc. We don’t much think about it because most of Western Civilization is in close proximity to a gas station, but if you have ever looked at hydrogen cars you know how vital it is to have adequate range in your vehicle.