CIG issues warnings, twitter becomes a bit butthurty.

[FluffyVonRage]

Conflict is the balancing factor in the game - the risk that makes it all the more enjoyable. If there's no risk, no sudden change of the situation, then you might as well be playing a click-to-win idle game. Of course this is going to be the major thing that gets expanded upon first, as situationally, everything can tie into it. It's the common denominator, and frankly, one of the bigger pulls to draw people into the game - Come for the combat, stay for the Scenery/mining/deeper gameplay loop. I agree that CIG needs to stop adding random new stuff that sounds cool but will delay the PU by N months - That shit is what expansions are for: You don't even need to charge for them.

I think the ultimate issue with this situation is that people are jumping into the game expecting it to be in a finished state: 'WHY AM I BEING PUNISHED FOR DOING A THING I COULD MECHANICALLY DO?' Buddy, because you're throwing the metrics off, by causing others to play around you. Can't balance a game if you're getting bad metrics because all the traders are exploding to exploits that will be closed before release*.

This is why ToW is so important - All the leet-sniper-Killer4hire Cod Kids will be busy muderfucking each other elsewhere, and then CIG can balance the PU properly.


*I fucking hope.

 

[hardroc77]

@NaffNaffBobFace Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Much appreciated!

My Opinion!
They stopped working on Star Citizen...you know trading, etc etc and have been making 'EVE 2.0' for the last year.
(Just look at the Reputation system.....see anything about doing Corvalex Delivery missions. [which many people love] --- No! Only pew pew missions...)
Don't believe me? try doing some cargo runs......Even the Pickup & Deliver Missions now suck (and don't work most of the time).

What did HELL did they & you all expect when the Streamers and Youtubers demanded more Shoot-em-Up pew pew like all the other games on the market?
This is what happens when you are more concerned with making money from 'entertaining' your audience then helping to make a DREAM come true.
---- This is rapidly becoming just another damn PINBALL CLONE. (EVE 2.0)
Try Arena Commander to entertain your audience. That is what it is for. Anybody playing Star Marine...No but you are now demanding ToW...........
Let's waste more Time & Money on ToW.......That is what they told us the last Star Marine Map was for.............Remember?
Been there, done that - BORED! Need more pew pew! (But on our terms!)

CIG now tells us that we will have several more 'Special Events' this year.
Lots of Time & Money spent on them and they will ALL be 'Shoot-em-Ups.
When are you going to get fed up with this and demand they go back to making Star Citizen?
What? No profit in Streaming anything except pew pew?......I rest my case.

Personally, if CIG does not stop making more fighting and does not start working on Trade, Salvage, Exploration and other careers for the other 80% of players,
then I will stop testing, helping and pledging to pay their salaries.......
I will give CIG until the end of Summer.........CItCon in August.
No more words - let us see Star Citizen and not this crappy Pinball Clone.

-------- "But Cosmic they are working on these things. Wait until the end of the year."
Heard that last year and the year before........

And I LOVE Star Citizen. I have been helping to test almost daily since the beginning.....Hell I even spent 100s of hour when we only had the hangar modules.
This is very, very. sad that Chris Robert's and our DREAM is turning into just another 'same as' game that people will only play for 2 weeks.
(Anyone still playing CyberPunk? Hell No!)
(Hell, anyone except the Streamers playing Star Citizen? Other than the pew pew players)

btw --- What is the next system?
Oh, yeah PYRO with nothing but criminals and fighting!

Note of interest ----
I can not remember the last time I saw a post on the Issue Council (or other feedback threads) by any of the 'popular' Streamers.
Just my thoughts.

Now, I will get all the Hate because not everyone is entitled to Freedom of Opinion in the 21st Century.
Whew, I just had to have my say. Been holding quiet for way to long.
Cheers!

Hello all,
It's been awhile since I've logged in the PU. I've been avocadoing and IC stuff. Cosmo is correct in my opinion. And I cannot add anything
to what he said. I logged into the PU during the week to help my son learn the basics of mining, etc. We got yetted twice by the same three guys two days in a row. They wait until we land on the surface and blam. My sons reaction is "Wow, does this happen all the time? Even if we just go exploring?"

Is the PU becoming COD?

Btw, I do hope all my fellow Testies are doing well and keeping safe.

 

[maynard]

...They stopped working on Star Citizen...you know trading, etc etc and have been making 'EVE 2.0' for the last year ...
Personally, if CIG does not stop making more fighting and does not start working on Trade, Salvage, Exploration and other careers for the other 80% of players, then I will stop testing, helping and pledging to pay their salaries.......

[WALL O' TEXT]
I get the idea that you believe people are griefing from boredom and a lack of alternative activities in-game, and that it will go away when we have more to do

if so, kindly send me some of what you've been smoking there, I could use a break from reality right about now

griefing is its own thing, there will always be a certain subset of gamers who get off on it

they look for ways to game the system, and find and exploit loopholes to mess with legitimate players, until the Devs close those loopholes

(it never ceases to amaze me how much energy, effort and creativity some people will employ to bring the negativity)

fully fleshed-out gameplay in more areas will just expand the scope for griefers

when Exploration and inter-system travel come online the griefers will camp the wormhole exits and make you regret moving about alone or in small numbers

when Mining is up and running the griefers will figure out how to ruin your Mining experience

Salvaging, Bounty Hunting, Mission Running, ditto

the Devs will find patterns in griefing behavior and move to penalize the behavior algorithmically, and only reluctantly use the BanHammer

but it's a never-ending game of cat and mouse
[/WALL O' TEXT]

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

Maybe CIGs intention is to have some systems cater heavily to one playstyle, and when Pyro comes in players who wish to use eachother as their game can be funnled to and stay in there so Pyro basically becomes the Call Of Duty area.

Having had a long think about this now, I've come to the conclusion which I have come to on many occasions in the past, which is mirrored servers. One set for players which have been algrythimically analysed as to be playing the game (including the PVP elements of which there will be plenty) and one set which will be for those who use other players as their game. The Griefers, the cheats, the Exploit2win PVP mob who will employ tactics like spawn camping, pad ramming, forcing a crime stat etc.

With Server Meshing you need not even tell them which set of servers they are playing on or which ones they are being shunted between depending on if they do actually behave in a certain system... So there would be two realities in the PU, niavana and anarchy, niavana full of players just playing the game as intended, and Anarchy full of players playing eachother.

Might not work in reality but I'd love to see what would happen in a server full of sociopaths. Would they get on and form a Lord Of The Flies situation or all get bored and go home when they realised every player they targeted and every player who targeted them was holding a mirror up to them showing them the person they really are?

They say "Hell is other people" - SC has the technology to test that.

Either that or a a single prank server with NPC's designed to pad ram and destroy their ship before they can get to it. Think of it as an alternative to Kelscher.

 

[FluffyVonRage]

They say "Hell is other people" - SC has the technology to test that.

Either that or a a single prank server with NPC's designed to pad ram and destroy their ship before they can get to it. Think of it as an alternative to Kelscher.

I like this plan.

 

[Thalstan]

Other games have similar servers. Thing is, once you get tossed in there, you can never transfer out...

 

[Bambooza]

As for PVP its a conundrum. On the one hand this game is clearly developed and geared towards conflict being the risk aspect of the risk/reward game balance loop. Be it from computer controlled actors or other players. The biggest issue currently in the game is the fact that everyone is armed but there is no real purpose to combat and no real consequence for hostile actions. While there are plans for the future it does not help the here and now and so we see people making up their own content in what ever way they want to in that moment. And sometimes that does come at the cost of other peoples plan play style (some of the passive play styles will never really be as the player wants as conflict is a very big part of the game balance). I am not sure I am in agreement with the liberal ambiguous use of a ban hammer but I do understand attempting to keep the community from becoming toxic while they continue to try and craft more game features that should help to give more structure and meaning.

As for streamers and their crying about stream snipping I have no tolerance for them given how easy it is to add a stream delay.

 

[Cugino83]

Maybe CIGs intention is to have some systems cater heavily to one playstyle, and when Pyro comes in players who wish to use eachother as their game can be funnled to and stay in there so Pyro basically becomes the Call Of Duty area.

Having had a long think about this now, I've come to the conclusion which I have come to on many occasions in the past, which is mirrored servers. One set for players which have been algrythimically analysed as to be playing the game (including the PVP elements of which there will be plenty) and one set which will be for those who use other players as their game. The Griefers, the cheats, the Exploit2win PVP mob who will employ tactics like spawn camping, pad ramming, forcing a crime stat etc.

With Server Meshing you need not even tell them which set of servers they are playing on or which ones they are being shunted between depending on if they do actually behave in a certain system... So there would be two realities in the PU, niavana and anarchy, niavana full of players just playing the game as intended, and Anarchy full of players playing eachother.

Might not work in reality but I'd love to see what would happen in a server full of sociopaths. Would they get on and form a Lord Of The Flies situation or all get bored and go home when they realised every player they targeted and every player who targeted them was holding a mirror up to them showing them the person they really are?

They say "Hell is other people" - SC has the technology to test that.

Either that or a a single prank server with NPC's designed to pad ram and destroy their ship before they can get to it. Think of it as an alternative to Kelscher.

Well this whole idea of a shenigan's getto is actually not new in the game industry.
I can't remember the exact game, it was soemthing like COD or a similar multiplayer game, but there was one that once the system find a player useing chat, aimbbot and things like that it trasnfert it to a pool of nother cheeters player, a pool that only pair for match beteween themself.... all without let the cheeters know.
I don't quite remeber how you'll be able to get out of it, but it was something like playing without any cheet for some time (and terribly suck while doing that...).

It will be nice to see, far down the line, something like that in SC... there is some satisfaction in the "eat your own shit AO" philosophy that make me rejoy...

 

[Zomad]

WALL O TEXT:

I can tell you as a new player I understand PVP, real world senerio. I can handle that. Griefing isn't PVP.

You think of the Star Wars movie or Star Trek there was little idle farming/space trucking it all carried risk. It makes working as a group more of a play style. It sounded to me, as though this was a vision of the game. Rather and a bunch of solo players wandering around mining or running trade, bounty hunting, ect. These activities were to be played as a group. Much like the movies and shows. Mining group gets attacked and defenders rush to their aid. Pirates attack and wagon train of goods are stolen while the good guys give chase and epic battle ensues. Great fun to watch, more fun to participate.

I used to be a big WOW player back when 25 man Raid groups were a thing. That was awesome fun. It is not fundamentally different from something like the above. Huge Horde vs Alliance PVP battles in Kingdoms Huge PVP battles outside of The Barrens. Massive fun. Sure you would get the odd campers/griefer but they were quickly bored and went away.

What I see is mainly a large group of people basically soloing. Which is fine. I do lots of it. The people who like to PVP are focused on bounty hunting and fighting amongst themselves for fun. Then the people who when they were little liked to pull the legs off of bugs to watch them crawl around arrive- The Griefers.

The part I do not understand is the people who decided killing the guy who is plodding along doing nothing but minding their own business. I.e. Last night and today I find time to play. I spend hours losing $$$ due to 30ks trying to do some cargo hauling, lose a ROC full of gems. I am annoyed. I finally get onto a reasonably stable server, claim my ship for the umpteenth time. I plot a course, lift off, and just clear the pad turn to QD and I am attacked and killed. I gave up. In the early morning I sneak in some game time, claim my ship...23 minutes. I plot course, lift and spool up QD, hit the go button and I am being shot dead. I hadn't been logged onto the game 30 minutes. So another 23 minutes to reclaim my ship. Now an hour has passed. I haven't even left the station.

I finally switched servers again and managed to get a few things done. Then I read in chat where so many people were getting killed coming and going from PO. People getting blown up on the pads, ect. I log off.

Who wants to play a game when the mechanics are like this? Do people have hours upon hours to waste playing a game to get nowhere? Sure some people have billions, I am finding out, with nearly every ship available. I am struggling to just do the simple 3 box missions. I was gifted, by another extremely generous player a larger ship than my starter and some seed money. However, I am dying a death by thousand cuts. I want to love and play the game but between the glitches and the griefers... new players are fucked.

 

[Cugino83]

...

Who wants to play a game when the mechanics are like this? Do people have hours upon hours to waste playing a game to get nowhere? Sure some people have billions, I am finding out, with nearly every ship available. I am struggling to just do the simple 3 box missions. I was gifted, by another extremely generous player a larger ship than my starter and some seed money. However, I am dying a death by thousand cuts. I want to love and play the game but between the glitches and the griefers... new players are fucked.

That's one of the reason why I think GIC is pulling this trigger: if new player or the one trying the game in a free-fly event get this same experience I doubt they'll enjoy it.
Considering the amount of development going on right now I'll expect several good addition to gamplay this year, so having new player to test the game whiout being splatted by some kid griefing them is mandatory for increasing the player base.

 

[Sirus7264]

lol can someone simplify the wall of texts in here for me? i'm to lazy to read everything but it all seems interesting.

 

[Lorddarthvik]

lol can someone simplify the wall of texts in here for me? i'm to lazy to read everything but it all seems interesting.

As far as I can tell, CIG issued legit warnings and bans in email to a couple of serious griefers, and now some PVP nutjobs and drama queens are going crazy and claiming that it's the end of the world cos CIG don't allow ANY form of PVP anymore. You know, the usual non-issue and overreaction that is mandatory on the internet.

Most of the walls of text are about that CIG did the right thing for banning griefers cos it ruins the game for paying customers and prospective players alike. Also it skews data and makes it impossible to test the game, and more anti-griefing in-game measures (like security response and fixes to loopholes) will come online later to stop this happening.

 

[Bambooza]

WALL O TEXT:

I can tell you as a new player I understand PVP, real world senerio. I can handle that. Griefing isn't PVP.

You think of the Star Wars movie or Star Trek there was little idle farming/space trucking it all carried risk. It makes working as a group more of a play style. It sounded to me, as though this was a vision of the game. Rather and a bunch of solo players wandering around mining or running trade, bounty hunting, ect. These activities were to be played as a group. Much like the movies and shows. Mining group gets attacked and defenders rush to their aid. Pirates attack and wagon train of goods are stolen while the good guys give chase and epic battle ensues. Great fun to watch, more fun to participate.

I used to be a big WOW player back when 25 man Raid groups were a thing. That was awesome fun. It is not fundamentally different from something like the above. Huge Horde vs Alliance PVP battles in Kingdoms Huge PVP battles outside of The Barrens. Massive fun. Sure you would get the odd campers/griefer but they were quickly bored and went away.

What I see is mainly a large group of people basically soloing. Which is fine. I do lots of it. The people who like to PVP are focused on bounty hunting and fighting amongst themselves for fun. Then the people who when they were little liked to pull the legs off of bugs to watch them crawl around arrive- The Griefers.

The part I do not understand is the people who decided killing the guy who is plodding along doing nothing but minding their own business. I.e. Last night and today I find time to play. I spend hours losing $$$ due to 30ks trying to do some cargo hauling, lose a ROC full of gems. I am annoyed. I finally get onto a reasonably stable server, claim my ship for the umpteenth time. I plot a course, lift off, and just clear the pad turn to QD and I am attacked and killed. I gave up. In the early morning I sneak in some game time, claim my ship...23 minutes. I plot course, lift and spool up QD, hit the go button and I am being shot dead. I hadn't been logged onto the game 30 minutes. So another 23 minutes to reclaim my ship. Now an hour has passed. I haven't even left the station.

I finally switched servers again and managed to get a few things done. Then I read in chat where so many people were getting killed coming and going from PO. People getting blown up on the pads, ect. I log off.

Who wants to play a game when the mechanics are like this? Do people have hours upon hours to waste playing a game to get nowhere? Sure some people have billions, I am finding out, with nearly every ship available. I am struggling to just do the simple 3 box missions. I was gifted, by another extremely generous player a larger ship than my starter and some seed money. However, I am dying a death by thousand cuts. I want to love and play the game but between the glitches and the griefers... new players are fucked.

I agree with you that the current system is lacking game play mechanics that would add a reason for pvp that is currently lacking. Besides time there really is no lasting punishment for engaging in pvp and often times those who are pad killing are only logging in for a short play session and so looking to do something they find enjoyable.

I also look forward to when PVP has meaning and players band together as you said in your opening statements. For now most are attempting to play it as a solo game simply because of how unstable the servers are and how hard it is to join a group with no real group missions. For me its just the state of the game as there is no lasting benefit to anything we do as nothing is long term persistent as of this moment.

I also understand the frustration of the long ship respawn wait time. To a degree after all we are test and we should all have lots of Auroras which are very quick to respawn and have a minimal express cost.

 

[Sky Captain]

In related news, the UEE president has now banned all guns. But more to the point, the PVP vs griefing nonsense is a problem that will work itself out as the game universe grows. There's no reason in a game this size that someone has to spawn in the same spot to get sniped by the same player over and over. CIG is building something bigger than a sandbox here, right?

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

...the PVP vs griefing nonsense is a problem that will work itself out as the game universe grows. There's no reason in a game this size that someone has to spawn in the same spot to get sniped by the same player over and over. CIG is building something bigger than a sandbox here, right?

I can only hope it does resolve itself as the universe grows, but theres nothing quite so resourceful as a malicious human who's game goal is not to play a game, but to stop others from playing a game...

Respawning elsewhere would stop one type of griefer which is the Harasser who targets a single person, but it would not stop the other types who don't care who they target... and why should the victim of their attentions have the punishment of having to respawn elsewhere just because there is a raging sociopath over a major landing zone? Does that disruption not play into the satisfactions of a griefer too knowing they denied the player their goal and have put them further away from it? I can imagine a real life equivalent being the captain of a passenger jet coming over the intercom: "Sorry ladies and gentlemen, I regret to inform due to excessive griefing over Heathrow we are having to divert to Gatwick, we apologize for the inconvenience." and some kid with a drone over Heathrow giggling to himself.

I am beginning to think successful griefing deterrents will be ones which deny that user the sociopathic pay-off that is the thrill-tingle satisfaction of disrupting someones, anyones, game as long as they disrupt them. Think of it as that feeling you get when you nearly, but then fail to, sneeze. That's disappointment. We need to start disappointing Griefers like that some how.

I think there are two types of griefer which would need to be taken account of -

- The Harasser as mentioned who targets a certain individual, and dude that is not cool that's online bullying and rightly there are measures like suspensions and bans and other mechanics which can be targeted on those users.

- The Sociopath, a user who views all other players as a target for their game satisfaction, using other players as their game content, treating them as mere toys to pick up and manipulate and distruct as they desire and willing to be and getting satisfaction from being treated in the same way - They'll say "hey, it's a PvP game bud, live with it" because to them that's simply all that SC is, thinking that like COD or other online deathmatch games like PUBG or Fortnite that by buying it and logging in all players have agreed that's the kind of game it is and that's why they are entitled to being antisocial - wheras SC is not a deathmatch PvPer, it's an MMO. Think of SC in akin to Minecraft. MC is definitely not a PvP game, but it can be online if you go on that type of server. SC's a game which has the possibility of being everything, like Minecraft is, but we are at risk of it being shoehorned into the PvP lane and it staying there because strength has always defeated reason. The Library at Alexandria burns.

I had an expiriance where I was in a Starfarer moments from landing at Area 18 and was suddenly being harassed by a Gladius ramming and aiming to push me into the City Shield... I climbed to try to get to somewhere I could at least attempt a fight back with weapons outside of the Armitice Zone and... they suddenly vanished. I don't know if it was a Crash To Desktop, Rage Quit or if they had failed in their main Tactic and logged off defeated? Either way, it was a win, either way, they were denied that half-chub of sociapathic satisfaction they were out to get from watching my charred corpse being distributed across the A18 skyline for no other benefit to their game play than their own satisfaction of knowing another players goal was denied them.

I then later had another expiriance at Olisar. I took off in the 'ol Starfarer and after leaving the Armistice Zone had a Gladius all over my ass aiming and hitting through the shield holes. I could not defend myself (Even if I had rear gunners the SF rears are scatterguns as default - not effective on anything other than close range, good grief what a crap loadout) and could see my holl would go down in a few minutes... so I jumped on the F12 "Self Destruct Initiated" and counted down in groups of 5 seconds until the ship self destructed.
The response on the F12: "No way."
My response: "Yes way."

You might be right, it might be that all they need to do is to give us all some space and the Griefers will be denied their targets due to dilution - but I think it's so much bigger and more complex an issue than that, but I can only hope you are right, otherwise the sociaopaths will have to Git Gud and B Gud :)

 

[Cugino83]

In related news, the UEE president has now banned all guns. But more to the point, the PVP vs griefing nonsense is a problem that will work itself out as the game universe grows. There's no reason in a game this size that someone has to spawn in the same spot to get sniped by the same player over and over. CIG is building something bigger than a sandbox here, right?

True ... probably...
Asside what @NaffNaffBobFace said (that I agree to at 100%) there is a problem right now: we don't have wide space with multiple systems.
Right now we have a sand box test enviroment... a quite good one, but still a sand box.
To allow C to grow in what is suppose to be not only players need to remain engaged in it but also new player need to be farmed, considering the already discuraging amount of bug and lack of content if CIg will allow uncontrolled trolling is easy to see new players leave the game since they will consider it a "no man lands" where players will attack and destroy you on sight... that is not either the reality or the plan CIG have for SC.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

True ... probably...
Asside what @NaffNaffBobFace said (that I agree to at 100%) there is a problem right now: we don't have wide space with multiple systems.
Right now we have a sand box test enviroment... a quite good one, but still a sand box.
To allow C to grow in what is suppose to be not only players need to remain engaged in it but also new player need to be farmed, considering the already discuraging amount of bug and lack of content if CIg will allow uncontrolled trolling is easy to see new players leave the game since they will consider it a "no man lands" where players will attack and destroy you on sight... that is not either the reality or the plan CIG have for SC.

My assumption is once more star systems are in, and the Rep system comes into place properly, users can be corraled into systems like Pyro and Cathcart by having their actions exclude them from access to ports in UEE systems and they can become part of the risk of going into those outlaw systems, perhaps? Wouldn't stop the griefing but it would give a stomping ground for sociopathic behaviour one might expect in such risky sectors.

In Stanton system Grim Hex could end up the only station you can land at if you get a bad enough rep. Anywhere else could end up saying "Landing permission denied on order of the UEE, you have earned the displeasure of the Empire and are not welcome at this port. Be on your way, cevilian."

Then again GrimHex may even frown on loose canons destructing their clientele before they can do business...? even pirates would frown on an indescriminate killer as they could literally target anyone on any given day, including pirates...? Maybe only Anarchy bases would be able to cater to users who believe anything that moves if fair game but imagine the anemic supplies at such places if cargo haulers are blown up before they make it to a hangar?

So they get a streight laced alt account and start supplying their Psycho account themselves with an alternate player controlled character - well at that point their streight account then gets negative rep for aiding and abetting a maniac and they have two accounts they can't do crap with.

If you don't have a pole to pin your flag to in a game, you probably don't have a flag either and thats no problem as long as you are not playing the kill everyone psychopath - as much fun as that could be to begin with, it could end up with them stranded more often than not as no one is going to touch them with a barge-pole...?

 

[Bambooza]

I can only hope it does resolve itself as the universe grows, but theres nothing quite so resourceful as a malicious human who's game goal is not to play a game, but to stop others from playing a game...

Respawning elsewhere would stop one type of griefer which is the Harasser who targets a single person, but it would not stop the other types who don't care who they target... and why should the victim of their attentions have the punishment of having to respawn elsewhere just because there is a raging sociopath over a major landing zone? Does that disruption not play into the satisfactions of a griefer too knowing they denied the player their goal and have put them further away from it? I can imagine a real life equivalent being the captain of a passenger jet coming over the intercom: "Sorry ladies and gentlemen, I regret to inform due to excessive griefing over Heathrow we are having to divert to Gatwick, we apologize for the inconvenience." and some kid with a drone over Heathrow giggling to himself.

- The Sociopath, a user who views all other players as a target for their game satisfaction, using other players as their game content, treating them as mere toys to pick up and manipulate and distruct as they desire and willing to be and getting satisfaction from being treated in the same way - They'll say "hey, it's a PvP game bud, live with it" because to them that's simply all that SC is, thinking that like COD or other online deathmatch games like PUBG or Fortnite that by buying it and logging in all players have agreed that's the kind of game it is and that's why they are entitled to being antisocial - wheras SC is not a deathmatch PvPer, it's an MMO. Think of SC in akin to Minecraft. MC is definitely not a PvP game, but it can be online if you go on that type of server. SC's a game which has the possibility of being everything, like Minecraft is, but we are at risk of it being shoehorned into the PvP lane and it staying there because strength has always defeated reason. The Library at Alexandria burns.

This is a false premise. We already know that they are going to have spawn closets and the concept of increase NPC pressure on hostile actions with in controlled space (at the moment its space covered by a sensor array). In fact they have already started to show this with the Idris UEE spawn event which is triggered when enough hostile forces continue to engage targets in a given area. So a random player attempting to cause a disruption over a major hub point is going to quickly be dealt with by NPC guards who will ramp up their pressure to either capture/destroy or push them away to another location (player flees). Even if the ramp up takes a few minutes to resolve itself in the mean time you can see how this pressure would divert the players attention from attacking random ships to now having to engage the security forces. The other aspect we currently do not see in the UE is all of the NPC ship traffic that is going to be physicalized in player active areas generated by Quantum. So while there might be 10 players in an area there should be lots of NPC ships filling in the space. So while most of the ships outside of a mission location are Player ships in the future its going to be most of the ships on the screen are NPC which should help to reduce the chances of continuously (unless specifically targeted) targeted and prevented from taking off (unless part of a group effort or npc faction your hostile to). It will also help to increase the security force response time as the player quickly ramps up their hostile actions against lots of targets most of which are not players.

So while there will be players who seek out their entertainment in the form of causing grief upon others its going to be hard for them to manage it given the cost sink in loosing ships and equipment due to the security response as well as the time they end up spending in jail. The way the game is shaping up PVP is going to be difficult outside of places like Pyro and even in Pyro PVP is going to be challenging as the support infrastructure doesn't exist. Successful PVP players are going to need whole networks of support and deep knowledge of the game as they get cut off from regions are hunted by other players/NPC's and need to find targets that can cover their losses.

I am beginning to think successful griefing deterrents will be ones which deny that user the sociopathic pay-off that is the thrill-tingle satisfaction of disrupting someones, anyones, game as long as they disrupt them. Think of it as that feeling you get when you nearly, but then fail to, sneeze. That's disappointment. We need to start disappointing Griefers like that some how.

I think there are two types of griefer which would need to be taken account of -

- The Harasser as mentioned who targets a certain individual, and dude that is not cool that's online bullying and rightly there are measures like suspensions and bans and other mechanics which can be targeted on those users.

The Harasser having a personal grudge against the target is going to ping pong between earning revenue and continuing their mission of harassing their target until its no longer entertaining or satisfying. Once again the cost of PVP is high the regions of space huge and attempting to track down a single player is going to be difficult as outside of fulfilling a bounty there has been no plans made known on implementing means for players to track a given individual, especially since its main purpose would be for nefarious reasons. Right now the game world is relatively small given the small number of hub landing sites, only players currently flying ships and a small number of players. So as the game grows in size and player counts in an instance the Harrasser is going to have a harder time finding their target. Unless their target continues to go back to the same location after each failure attempting the same thing. It could also be that the Harrasser is not truly targeting the player, just simply keeping everyone out of a given location like Jumptown so that their team can corner the market.

I had an expiriance where I was in a Starfarer moments from landing at Area 18 and was suddenly being harassed by a Gladius ramming and aiming to push me into the City Shield... I climbed to try to get to somewhere I could at least attempt a fight back with weapons outside of the Armitice Zone and... they suddenly vanished. I don't know if it was a Crash To Desktop, Rage Quit or if they had failed in their main Tactic and logged off defeated? Either way, it was a win, either way, they were denied that half-chub of sociapathic satisfaction they were out to get from watching my charred corpse being distributed across the A18 skyline for no other benefit to their game play than their own satisfaction of knowing another players goal was denied them.

I then later had another expiriance at Olisar. I took off in the 'ol Starfarer and after leaving the Armistice Zone had a Gladius all over my ass aiming and hitting through the shield holes. I could not defend myself (Even if I had rear gunners the SF rears are scatterguns as default - not effective on anything other than close range, good grief what a crap loadout) and could see my holl would go down in a few minutes... so I jumped on the F12 "Self Destruct Initiated" and counted down in groups of 5 seconds until the ship self destructed.
The response on the F12: "No way."
My response: "Yes way."

You might be right, it might be that all they need to do is to give us all some space and the Griefers will be denied their targets due to dilution - but I think it's so much bigger and more complex an issue than that, but I can only hope you are right, otherwise the sociaopaths will have to Git Gud and B Gud :)

Pirates will exist and a Starfarer has the potential like other transport ships of being a sweet payday for them and so flying one alone is just asking to loose it. After all were was your wingman and crew? There is also lots of bugs that can be exploited, a lack of a robust security system and bored players who are looking for something to do in the sandbox. So its leading to a lot of negative behavior that hopefully will calm down as game features come online. But like I said Pirates and those with nefarious designs will exist as both players and NPC's and so you will need to pick the mission and ship that best fits your current situation. Going at it alone near hot zones of pirate activity? Perhaps a solo Starfarer is not the right choice.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

This is a false premise. We already know that they are going to have spawn closets and the concept of increase NPC pressure on hostile actions with in controlled space (at the moment its space covered by a sensor array). In fact they have already started to show this with the Idris UEE spawn event which is triggered when enough hostile forces continue to engage targets in a given area. So a random player attempting to cause a disruption over a major hub point is going to quickly be dealt with by NPC guards who will ramp up their pressure to either capture/destroy or push them away to another location (player flees). Even if the ramp up takes a few minutes to resolve itself in the mean time you can see how this pressure would divert the players attention from attacking random ships to now having to engage the security forces. The other aspect we currently do not see in the UE is all of the NPC ship traffic that is going to be physicalized in player active areas generated by Quantum. So while there might be 10 players in an area there should be lots of NPC ships filling in the space. So while most of the ships outside of a mission location are Player ships in the future its going to be most of the ships on the screen are NPC which should help to reduce the chances of continuously (unless specifically targeted) targeted and prevented from taking off (unless part of a group effort or npc faction your hostile to). It will also help to increase the security force response time as the player quickly ramps up their hostile actions against lots of targets most of which are not players.

So while there will be players who seek out their entertainment in the form of causing grief upon others its going to be hard for them to manage it given the cost sink in loosing ships and equipment due to the security response as well as the time they end up spending in jail. The way the game is shaping up PVP is going to be difficult outside of places like Pyro and even in Pyro PVP is going to be challenging as the support infrastructure doesn't exist. Successful PVP players are going to need whole networks of support and deep knowledge of the game as they get cut off from regions are hunted by other players/NPC's and need to find targets that can cover their losses.



The Harasser having a personal grudge against the target is going to ping pong between earning revenue and continuing their mission of harassing their target until its no longer entertaining or satisfying. Once again the cost of PVP is high the regions of space huge and attempting to track down a single player is going to be difficult as outside of fulfilling a bounty there has been no plans made known on implementing means for players to track a given individual, especially since its main purpose would be for nefarious reasons. Right now the game world is relatively small given the small number of hub landing sites, only players currently flying ships and a small number of players. So as the game grows in size and player counts in an instance the Harrasser is going to have a harder time finding their target. Unless their target continues to go back to the same location after each failure attempting the same thing. It could also be that the Harrasser is not truly targeting the player, just simply keeping everyone out of a given location like Jumptown so that their team can corner the market.



Pirates will exist and a Starfarer has the potential like other transport ships of being a sweet payday for them and so flying one alone is just asking to loose it. After all were was your wingman and crew? There is also lots of bugs that can be exploited, a lack of a robust security system and bored players who are looking for something to do in the sandbox. So its leading to a lot of negative behavior that hopefully will calm down as game features come online. But like I said Pirates and those with nefarious designs will exist as both players and NPC's and so you will need to pick the mission and ship that best fits your current situation. Going at it alone near hot zones of pirate activity? Perhaps a solo Starfarer is not the right choice.

Yep, it's good to see work has already started on countering that kind of behavior, early days still and still more work to be done.

That's not a bad point on being able to operate in a counter-to-game intention manner in a game which will require UEC resource to be able to continue to play, users will have to turn a buck to be able to operate in the game unless they buy UEC from the pledge store and fund their fun that way but even that'll be limited to 20,000UEC a day, however:
I do also have an inadvertent confession on Spectrum from the player who was flying the Gladius that targeted me at Olisar based on a comment they left in a thread about non-consensual PvP, admitting that they are using other players as their content in game along the lines of the Sociopathic Anti-Social Griefer model I theorized on who use other players as toys, and who are willing to be, expect and actively want to used as a toy in return by other players:

Spectrum - v7.5.0

RSI’s Spectrum is our integrated community and player interaction service, including chat, forums, game integration, and Player Organization facilities. Player Organizations (“Org”...

robertsspaceindustries.com

They were not being a pirate. They had no Cat or Cutlass standing by to claim the cargo that wasn't in my bay (leaving Olisar to buy with an empty cargo bay, not going to Olisar to sell will a full one) they were making other players their content and would most likely have targeted a pirate player as they would have targeted a non-pirate player.

I appreciate and understand Piracy will be a part of the game and don't deny it as something we will be able to do and be done to us, but ramming a SF into the city shield of A18 isn't piracy as they will not be able to claim any potential loot without becoming victim to the shield too. Neither is attacking an empty ship leaving a port which if they waited 20 minutes would then be able to attack for loot the craft is returning with.

Please tell me more about false premises

 

[Bambooza]

Yep, it's good to see work has already started on countering that kind of behavior, early days still and still more work to be done.

That's not a bad point on being able to operate in a counter-to-game intention manner in a game which will require UEC resource to be able to continue to play, users will have to turn a buck to be able to operate in the game unless they buy UEC from the pledge store and fund their fun that way but even that'll be limited to 20,000UEC a day, however:
I do also have an inadvertent confession on Spectrum from the player who was flying the Gladius that targeted me at Olisar based on a comment they left in a thread about non-consensual PvP, admitting that they are using other players as their content in game along the lines of the Sociopathic Anti-Social Griefer model I theorized on who use other players as toys, and who are willing to be, expect and actively want to used as a toy in return by other players:

Spectrum - v7.5.0

RSI’s Spectrum is our integrated community and player interaction service, including chat, forums, game integration, and Player Organization facilities. Player Organizations (“Org”...

robertsspaceindustries.com

They were not being a pirate. They had no Cat or Cutlass standing by to claim the cargo that wasn't in my bay (leaving Olisar to buy with an empty cargo bay, not going to Olisar to sell will a full one) they were making other players their content and would most likely have targeted a pirate player as they would have targeted a non-pirate player.

I appreciate and understand Piracy will be a part of the game and don't deny it as something we will be able to do and be done to us, but ramming a SF into the city shield of A18 isn't piracy as they will not be able to claim any potential loot without becoming victim to the shield too. Neither is attacking an empty ship leaving a port which if they waited 20 minutes would then be able to attack for loot the craft is returning with.

Please tell me more about false premises

Here have a beer first as everything is better with beer.

And are we talking current game, near future game or released game?

Current game is lacking so many subsystems that pvp griefing is simple an offshoot of that. Outside of combat practice on forced participants there is no gains (can't loot target ship, no being able to disable or board, move cargo) So the victory condition is only in blowing up the target ship. For the engaging party their cost/risk is minimal in that the loosing their ship is minimal given they are picking the engagement parameters, fuel and ammo spent are still very cheap in game. The target party has the potential of loosing their ship they are not prepared to defend (as the game progresses this should be not an excuse as combat can and will happen even if its against NPCs), cargo and time, in fact all of these conditions do not change as we progress forward. What does change is the payout for the pirate force as well as risk engaging security forces.

City shields continue to be modified as it looks like they are really attempting to remove the negative you pass the boundary you blow up paradigm.