Most of the difference isn't going to hospitals, or doctors practices. It's going to for profit insurance. Also the price of medication in the US is virtually astronomic compared with say, Canada. For example I used to pay $17 (CAD) for albuterol inhalers for asthma. In the US, the co-pay was $50 USD. Exact same drug. My US doctor switched me to Advair and ProAir because the insurance company will pay more for that - but I need to have Ventolin on hand too then because ProAir acts too slowly.
Coronavirus COVID-19 Thread
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I have heard this before as well but when you check the quarterly earning reports of these insurance companies and their C suit exec pay and compensation it's not as if they are raking in the gold either. Most of them are on par with the pay of others while much higher than the average pay we peons make its not an outlier.
The only guess I can make is that far fewer are paying into the health system then we estimate and thus those who are are covering the rest.
Yeah what’s up with America’s healthcare system anyway? Why do you guys pay so much and get so little?
I’ve only lived in countries with heavily subsidized and/or free healthcare and the idea of paying so much is alien to me.
It's a question I've been wondering too.
The only benefit I can think of is paying privately at point of use means while they are well an American doesn't have to pay a regular tax to keep the system funded so if a tax would cost them $120 a year but they only use $40 a year they have $80 still in their pocket... but that to me also means things that don't turn a profit aren't kept or maintained awaiting a 'just in case' sinario, like... well, like a pandemic.
Paying for health insurance defeats that benefit though...?
Happy to be corrected if I've got the wrong end of the stick on that one though :-)
I wouldn't say you have free healthcare as it's covered by an increase in taxes but it's true that lots of countries pay far less in health care costs and get similar treatment as the states do. But I have a gut feeling that there is a lot of covering up and lying in regards to health care both in the state and in other countries.
Sometimes I wonder if health insurance is not the root cause of the USA's medical issues, not in a direct correlation but in knock-on effects. While there was "accident insurance" began to be available, which operated much like modern disability insurance it wasn't until world war 2 and the wage freeze that companies started to offer perks like company-paid health insurance to entice new workers. And in some ways, it might very well be this disconnect between paying out of pocket for something and having one employer or government pay for it. I know many people who have no clue how much money they truly make but are not made available to them due to all the taxes and fees leveraged against their wages.
We can take an average hospital stay for a covid patient and all the costs that they incur as a result of their stay. And we are talking about the true cost as factored in the nurse's time, doctors' time, janitorial, and cleaning staff time. The use of disposable items, and the list goes on. So let's say it really does cost upwards of 15 to 20k a day to stay in a hospital bed not even an ICU bed. And you are there for two weeks. That's 280,000 dollars so whos going to pay for it as someone does. I know I've worked and paid into my medical insurance for 20 years now but I have not even come close to contributing that amount of money into the system even if you factor in a 7% growth on compounded interest and continued principle investment. And this might be the real problem. We are pulling out far more than we as a collective are contributing.
COVID Catharsis Corner - Reports from around the world from today, Tuesday 31st of August:
- World: 217,408,640 confirmed cases and 4,514,789 confirmed deaths.
- US: Passes 39 million cases.
- Movies: Mission Impossible 7 launches lawsuit as insurance fails to cover the costs of COVID delays to shooting the film.
- Variants: WHO advises new C.1.2 mutant does not appear to have taken a hold and is not yet a variant of concern.
- Vaccines: GlaxoSmithKline and SK Bioscience begin Phase 3 trials of their vaccine candidate.
- Israel: Having recorded zero new daily cases shortly before Delta variant swept in, Israel records record high new daily cases at 11,000.
- Japan: Moderna vaccine vial contamination now thought to have been caused by incorrect use of needles used to extract doses.
- New Zealand: New daily cases drop to 49 down from a high of 83 on Sunday, causing some to be optimistic however the Prime Minister kept it real saying: “Every day for me is, another step, a bit of progress, but too early. For me I want to see sustained reductions over a period of time and I think actually most people want to see that. It is good not to see some of those high numbers we were only a few days ago.”
- New Zealand: Investigation on how the latest outbreak began traces it back to a Quarantine Hotel in Auckland but there is no link from the inside of the hotel to the outside: “all of the obvious sources of transmission – people to people contact – it would be fair to say that we’ve ruled most, if not all, of them out”. Attention turns to how the virus could transmit through the air, without person to person transmission.
- Australia: Announces it expects half a million Pfizer doses to arrive soon after agreeing a Swap with Singapore.
- EU: Announces 70% of adult population has now been fully vaccinated.
- UK: Scotland, and a school of 850 students in East Dunbartonshire had an attendance of less than 450 with the absent away for pandemic related reasons. A council official said: "We can confirm that at one school today there is a high absence rate. The vast majority of absences are from students who are isolating while they await PCR test results. Following some positive cases in the school this week, many families are adopting a cautious approach and booking PCR tests."
- Ireland: Announces plans to ease most COVID restrictions by October 22nd.
- Kosovo: Delays start of new school year by two weeks following case spike caused by Delta variant.
- World: 217,408,640 confirmed cases and 4,514,789 confirmed deaths.
- US: Passes 39 million cases.
- Movies: Mission Impossible 7 launches lawsuit as insurance fails to cover the costs of COVID delays to shooting the film.
- Variants: WHO advises new C.1.2 mutant does not appear to have taken a hold and is not yet a variant of concern.
- Vaccines: GlaxoSmithKline and SK Bioscience begin Phase 3 trials of their vaccine candidate.
- Israel: Having recorded zero new daily cases shortly before Delta variant swept in, Israel records record high new daily cases at 11,000.
- Japan: Moderna vaccine vial contamination now thought to have been caused by incorrect use of needles used to extract doses.
- New Zealand: New daily cases drop to 49 down from a high of 83 on Sunday, causing some to be optimistic however the Prime Minister kept it real saying: “Every day for me is, another step, a bit of progress, but too early. For me I want to see sustained reductions over a period of time and I think actually most people want to see that. It is good not to see some of those high numbers we were only a few days ago.”
- New Zealand: Investigation on how the latest outbreak began traces it back to a Quarantine Hotel in Auckland but there is no link from the inside of the hotel to the outside: “all of the obvious sources of transmission – people to people contact – it would be fair to say that we’ve ruled most, if not all, of them out”. Attention turns to how the virus could transmit through the air, without person to person transmission.
- Australia: Announces it expects half a million Pfizer doses to arrive soon after agreeing a Swap with Singapore.
- EU: Announces 70% of adult population has now been fully vaccinated.
- UK: Scotland, and a school of 850 students in East Dunbartonshire had an attendance of less than 450 with the absent away for pandemic related reasons. A council official said: "We can confirm that at one school today there is a high absence rate. The vast majority of absences are from students who are isolating while they await PCR test results. Following some positive cases in the school this week, many families are adopting a cautious approach and booking PCR tests."
- Ireland: Announces plans to ease most COVID restrictions by October 22nd.
- Kosovo: Delays start of new school year by two weeks following case spike caused by Delta variant.
Oregon reports 2,414 new confirmed and presumptive COVID-19 cases, 43 new deaths
So much for the virus "not being very deadly" anymore. More people are dying here in Oregon, Wash than ever.
THIS.
IS.
NOT.
OKAY.
How is a 1.78% fatality rate very deadly? Especially when it was originally estimated to be over 3%? This is not to say it's normal compared to the normal flu season fatality rate of the seasonal flu and complications like pneumonia at 15.2 per 100,000, so much lower. But still, it's lagging behind the big two in terms of deaths per year.
So even if we take all of the excess deaths and say they are covid related it's still lower than cancer and heart disease. While the data is still not fully released as of yet it's showing that not all of the excess deaths are covid related.
2019
I was thinking about the covid vaccine and realized we could have predicted this outcome when looking at the flu vaccine from previous years.
FastStats - Influenza
www.cdc.gov
Even when you look at deaths in Oregon its this month is still not close to the all-time highs back in December/January
I don't think anyone is saying the virus is not deadly as it's far more deadly than the seasonal flu. But when compared to past pandemics it's very meek. And it still stands you have a higher chance of dying from a heart attack or cancer than covid. And if you have gotten your vaccine then accidents, Alzheimer's, and diabetes become more of a risk.
I know your country has a private healthcare system that takes health insurance, I had to see a hand surgeon in Cambridge once and it wasnt an NHS hospital. I think with private healthcare you just get a better experience. Shorter wait times and better appointment availability are two pros that I can think of off the top of my head. If there wasn't a benefit, I don't think the private system would even exist. I dont know what the NHS covers as far as electives and major surgeries. I would assume theres an incentive to give you the minimal care necessary as a cost saving measure for the NHS, and that can mean a lot of things.
Yeah Canada’s like that too. Tiered system.
Basic healthcare is essentially free, specialized care on the other hand you’ll have to pay up. I have a medical plan from work so quite a bit of the specialized stuff is covered as well.
Rich people who hate waiting and want the very best just cross the border to the US for treatment.
You've been sold a big lie then. Don't worry, I was too before - for a long time. There are hospitals in the US that cater to people who are paying cash price for health care. These people can jump the line and not wait for their turn. My mother in law used to work for one if these hospitals before she retired, and my sister in law does now. Line jumping in Canada is illegal, even if you're a billionaire.
You know what the Big Lie was based on? In hospital MRI's. Yes you can get an MRI in a few days in the US. You just make an appointment at the nearest clinic and go. "Just try to make an MRI visit in a hospital in Canada! You can wait WEEKS." So the story goes. Except the same thing happens in the US if you go to a hospital to get an MRI. Go to an MRI clinic instead, for heaven's sake. Canada is not some third world country.
Oh dude I think you misunderstood me. I’m aware of all that. I’m just saying that if you want top of the line healthcare, the US is better.
MRIs and X-rays I’ve had done in less than a week.
My partners a healthcare worker, I know what’s what. I’m actually proud of Canada’s healthcare system and wouldn’t trade it for the world.
This is what I'm saying... the US does not have a better health care system than Canada, they just have a more expensive one. Outcomes are just about on par, depending on the skills of the hospital staff and doctors involved, which are generally great in both countries. So why the price difference?
There’s a number of treatments and experimental procedures that the US does better. I’m basing this off of what medical professionals i personally know tell me.
Either way I’m happy and content with the level of health care I receive.
As for the price difference, who knows? I certainly can’t afford the more expensive variety.
665 KIDS HOSPITALIZED IN WASHINGTON.
11 CHILDREN DEAD.
IF YOU ARE SPREADING THIS VIRUS YOURE A CHILD KILLER STRAIGHT UP AND I HOPE YOU DIE NOT FROM A VIRUS BUT FROM A HORRIBLE CASE OF ANAL CANCER.
Yep, the private system definately exists in the UK, critics argue over the last 40+ years the National system has slowly been strangled to drive more people to private and it is undeniable over that time a lot of critical services have been tendered out to private companies and it is unclear just how stable private would be in the UK if these government contracts to run NHS services were not handed out... but they would say that they are critics. ;-)
@SlumLord I understand your frustration, fear and fury at the situation. I understand that right now it feels out of control. I know you have likely expirianced directly the effects of the pandemic and now more than anything you want people to just wake up and take it seriously.
I understand seeing people brush the deaths of millions aside as if it were so much danadruf from their shoulder is incomprehensible and it is very, very difficult to understand how people can react that way in the face of uncermoutable tradgidy and suffering.
Sometimes, for some people, focusing on numbers is how they cope. No amount of emotive reasoning will bring them round. No amount of pointing out the issue will sway them. And indeed from my time in my professional work, it can even cause them to dig their heels in and heed the issue even less, because emotive does not speak to them in the way they have chosen to cope with it, and as one higer-up once told me the indevidual human side of a particular issue was 'irrelevant' when dealing with a problem that effected hundreds of thousands. That's just how they were able to approach the issue congativey, by slicing it down to the bare bone.
Some people live on a Macro scale, not a Micro one, and no amount of pleading with them will change that viewpoint. That's just the way they are just as our frustration with their seemingly cold objectivity is just the way we are.
They are the Spock to our Dr. McCoy.
I understand your frustration as I feel it too, but hoping harm on those who operate in a manner different to ours is not the way to get them to admit the reality of the situation.
Channel that fury, get your spreadsheet, and prove it to them with numbers because that is how they have chosen to approach this crisis. For example, Delta is now the dominant varient. How many more kids are in that hospital now compared to the previous dominant varient for the same comparable time frame?
You want them to pay attention to the issue, speak their language.
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I just can't deal with these mom's, and other parent's at Gunnar's school. Half of them because of where I live are just stupid AF. I just can not deal with these people. I tried soooooo hard, and all I can do is to just tell them to stay away from me and my family at this point and if they don't listen imma donkey kick a bitch. Sorry but this is where we are at now. I suggest you all do the same. I am done trying to understand these idiots, or trying to sway them, you can not argue with idiots. I know that now. It only took a year or two for me to figure out you just can't reason with them. It is nothing but a waste of time, energy that we are all very short on these days. Save your energy for your family.
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IMO Human beings don't have the capacity to truly care for the entire population of this planet at the individual level. Speaking as an American, all the worlds horrors have been broadcast to us over the TV and viewed from the safety of our home throughout my lifetime, and probably (probably) you all haven't done shit about any of it. Think about all the tragedies happening on this planet that you aren't concerning yourself with at the moment. I don't see people talking about the genocide in Yemen much. How about central africa that has millions starving due to instability and conflict. Somalia, sudan, the congo, venezuela, haiti, Afghanistan, Syria, cambodia, the list goes on of places around the world where people are living in hell, dying, or on the brink of death. Millions of people starving and living in conflict and on top of that millions of people who are victims of human trafficking. The world is a fucked up place, and I just don't think people can genuinely give a shit about it all. It doesn't surprise me that people are brushing covid off.