Coronavirus COVID-19 Thread

[Bambooza]

IMO Human beings don't have the capacity to truly care for the entire population of this planet at the individual level. Speaking as an American, all the worlds horrors have been broadcast to us over the TV and viewed from the safety of our home throughout my lifetime, and probably (probably) you all haven't done shit about any of it. Think about all the tragedies happening on this planet that you aren't concerning yourself with at the moment. I don't see people talking about the genocide in Yemen much. How about central africa that has millions starving due to instability and conflict. Somalia, sudan, the congo, venezuela, haiti, Afghanistan, Syria, cambodia, the list goes on of places around the world where people are living in hell, dying, or on the brink of death. Millions of people starving and living in conflict and on top of that millions of people who are victims of human trafficking. The world is a fucked up place, and I just don't think people can genuinely give a shit about it all. It doesn't surprise me that people are brushing covid off.

Not sure you even have to go that far. For most, even within our own communities, there is a great deal of pain and suffering that is ignored. One only needs to volunteer at a soup kitchen or homeless shelter or if you have higher fortitude than a Ronald McDonald house or child advocacy center. Talk to nurses, medics, police officers and know that there are some stories that they will not even share because they are too painful to remember.

 

[Jolly_Green_Giant]

For most, even within our own communities, there is a great deal of pain and suffering that is ignored.

Excellent point.

 

[Montoya]

IMO Human beings don't have the capacity to truly care for the entire population of this planet at the individual level.

Big numbers are difficult, we all have this problem.

How is a 1.78% fatality rate very deadly?

Great example right here.

1.78% sounds extremely small, but to really grasp what it means in real terms lets add some names and avatars of people in this org to try get a real understand on what that means.

Lets be even more generous and round it down to 10x smaller!

Lets go with a 0.1% fatality rate for people getting COVID. Im using this number from a chart I saw that showed the 20-44 age demographic had a 0.1% fatality rate.

if 1000 members of TEST got COVID, 1 would die. Sounds about right?

We have 20,000 members, so 20 members will die.

Forgive me guys, but here is a random pull of 20 members to give you an idea of what 0.1% means in just this gaming guild.. not a town of 300,000, not a city of 3M or a country of 300M

0.1% is tiny, but once you put names and faces to it, even in this relative small community, its not small, its pretty damn big!

 

[Bambooza]

Big numbers are difficult, we all have this problem.



Great example right here.

1.78% sounds extremely small, but to really grasp what it means in real terms lets add some names and avatars of people in this org to try get a real understand on what that means.

Lets be even more generous and round it down to 10x smaller!

Lets go with a 0.1% fatality rate for people getting COVID. Im using this number from a chart I saw that showed the 20-44 age demographic had a 0.1% fatality rate.

if 1000 members of TEST got COVID, 1 would die. Sounds about right?

We have 20,000 members, so 20 members will die.

Forgive me guys, but here is a random pull of 20 members to give you an idea of what 0.1% means in just this gaming guild.. not a town of 300,000, not a city of 3M or a country of 300M

0.1% is tiny, but once you put names and faces to it, even in this relative small community, its not small, its pretty damn big!

True but you also have to compare it against other causes of death. So when you look at the total deaths for the same 20,000 members there will be a total count of ~ 200.

What Is Your Risk Of Dying From Covid-19?

Covid-19 has increased the risk of death for the average American by about 10 percent, but this increase in risk is much higher for seniors than children.

www.forbes.com

My point is not that Covid deaths are not tragic but we have to be careful of losing sight of the fact that death is very much a part of the living experience and people are dying all the time if we want them to or not.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

COVID Catharsis Corner - Reports from around the world from today, Wednesday 1st of September:

- World: 218,057,832 confirmed cases and 4,526,088 confirmed deaths.

- Beer: UK, and pub chain runs low on Beer following national lorry (truck?) driver shortage.

- North Korea: Declines COVAX vaccine doses, asking that they be redirected to harder hit nations. Reports indicate COVAX vaccines were also declined previously on concerns of side effects, and also declined supplies directly from Russia.

- Japan: Foreign matter found in Moderna vaccine vials found to be Stainless Steel particles.

- US: National survey indicates 76% are in favour of a booster shot.

- US: Administers 1 millionth booster dose.

- France: To start Booster program for the over 65's and vulnerable on 12th September.

- UK: Top 1% most vulnerable offered Booster jab, roughly 400,000 people.

- UK: Scotland, and new research indicates 5% of children in schools who came into contact with a child with COVID-19 went on to test positive themselves, which works out to be one in 20 contacts. An official responded "We will consider this evidence as we keep the approach to contact tracing and isolation policy amongst school pupils under ongoing review as this term progresses to ensure it is proportionate,"

- India: Economy recovered at a record rate in the second quarter.

- Greece: Makes vaccination mandatory for health workers.

- Spain: Announces it has vaccinated 70% of the adult population.

- Cuba: To vaccinate children from the age of two years in attempt to hit 90% vaccination rate.

 

[Bambooza]

- Beer: UK, and pub chain runs low on Beer following national lorry (truck?) driver shortage.

I think we have found the Owl.

 

[Montoya]

True but you also have to compare it against other causes of death.

Why?

Im not interested in other deaths, Im interested in COVID deaths.

I can appreciate the argument that its not "that bad" because there are worse things, but along those lines, don't worry about dying from COVID because more people die from cancer.

Don't worry about dying from cancer because more people die from heart disease.

The flaw in this argument, assuming this is the direction you were going, is that neither heart disease nor cancer is contagious from the stranger sitting across from me on the subway.

 

[Bambooza]

Why?

Im not interested in other deaths, Im interested in COVID deaths.

I can appreciate the argument that its not "that bad" because there are worse things, but along those lines, don't worry about dying from COVID because more people die from cancer.

Don't worry about dying from cancer because more people die from heart disease.

The flaw in this argument, assuming this is the direction you were going, is that neither heart disease nor cancer is contagious from the stranger sitting across from me on the subway.

By sitting in the subway you are most likely being exposed to carcinogens that have a higher chance of killing you in the end than the stranger sitting across from you in the subway.

But before this degrades into acceptable risk vs not acceptable and who gets to measure the threshold, my point is more along the lines of keeping things in perspective. That being is Covid killing people, should we be aware of it and take steps to mitigate the risk it imposes on us? Indeed to both, as it is killing people and the vaccine that was created in record time helps to mitigate one's chances of dying to it. But we should also not focus so closely on the risk covid imposes on us that we lose the scale of its risk to our daily lives and pursue it to the exclusion of everything else.

Your example of the subway is a great example as it shows of all the possible avenues of death and the risks associated with them, how easy it is to become fixated on just one to the exclusion of all the others even if they posse a far greater risk to your wellness. For the most part, for the vast majority of people, the subway has only gotten slightly riskier if at all especially for those who have been vaccinated, and yet if you were to poll people what do you think their greatest fear of the subway would be? I think you and I both know that the answer would be that the majority would list getting covid and dying as their number one fear in the subway. My point is very much that the fear and focus on Covid while a new form of death is disproportionate to the risk it imposes on most people's lives.

That of the 5 people I know who have died in the last year and a half none were caused by covid and while I know multiple people who have tested positive for covid I do not personally know of anyone who has died. And while it is anecdotal it's a story that plays out more often than not across the world. In fact, we can easily ask within this form if anyone's friends or family has succumbed to covid. The truth of the matter is most people are not going to experience a friend or family member who is no more due to covid and thus it's easy to see how people are starting to push back against the hysteria, right or wrong, and how they are simply wanting to return back to the resemblance of their life. After all there are many ways to die.

 

[August]

True but you also have to compare it against other causes of death. So when you look at the total deaths for the same 20,000 members there will be a total count of ~ 200.

I’m sorry, but by that logic you should also ignore serial killers.

They also contribute a fractionally tiny number of preventable deaths.

Just because we can’t shoot a virus to death doesn’t mean we should take it any less seriously.

 

[Bambooza]

I’m sorry, but by that logic you should also ignore serial killers.

They also contribute a fractionally tiny number of preventable deaths.

Just because we can’t shoot a virus to death doesn’t mean we should take it any less seriously.

Honestly how prevalent are serial killers? It might be that they are so rarer like being killed by lightning and dying in a plane crash that they get a huge amount of media coverage and we find ourselves irrationally afraid of serial killers around every corner while scarfing down another triple cheeseburger and extra fries. While Covid is far more deadly than serial killers, lightning strikes, and airplane crashes combined for the most part the only impact people will experience with this pandemic is going to have is the economic upheaval from the lockdowns.

 

[Vavrik]

That of the 5 people I know who have died in the last year and a half none were caused by covid and while I know multiple people who have tested positive for covid I do not personally know of anyone who has died. And while it is anecdotal it's a story that plays out more often than not across the world. In fact, we can easily ask within this form if anyone's friends or family has succumbed to covid. The truth of the matter is most people are not going to experience a friend or family member who is no more due to covid and thus it's easy to see how people are starting to push back against the hysteria, right or wrong, and how they are simply wanting to return back to the resemblance of their life. After all there are many ways to die.

Yes. And you are making a hellish and heartless assumption.

 

[Bambooza]

Yes. And you are making a hellish and heartless assumption.

How is it hellish and heartless?

 

[Montoya]

The truth of the matter is most people are not going to experience a friend or family member who is no more due to covid

O-Lefty will disagree with you on that, he lost his grandmother because a caregiver was careless and gave it to her.

Another mod here in TEST got COVID twice and now has permanently diminished lung capacity. If he was older or in worse physical health, he would be dead.

Another member that Griffin has on his podcast lost her younger brother.

Another member who posted a few posts back in this thread lost his father in-law.

This is just from TEST members I can see online right now.

By sitting in the subway you are most likely being exposed to carcinogens that have a higher chance of killing you in the end than the stranger sitting across from you in the subway.

Citation needed.

 

[Vavrik]

Fuck I can't even type.

 

[Aramsolari]

I think many of us here are focused on the subject of COVID deaths and not on the knock on effects.

For every COVID death, what’s the number of people who survive but have their quality of life severely reduced to the point where they cannot go back to work anytime soon or at all? You’re looking at a problem individuals, communities, and countries will have to address for decades.

What about the effects COVID has on children (who cannot be vaccinated…yet) of which the long term effect on their health is still largely unknown?

Finally there’s also the topic of protecting our health care system and our health care workers which has been what I’ve cared about the most since the beginning.

It’s not just the deaths that matter. The survivors and the system that protects us do as well.

 

[Aramsolari]

O-Lefty will disagree with you on that, he lost his grandmother because a caregiver was careless and gave it to her.

Another mod here in TEST got COVID twice and now has permanently diminished lung capacity. If he was older or in worse physical health, he would be dead.

Another member that Griffin has on his podcast lost her younger brother.

Another member who posted a few posts back in this thread lost his father in-law.

This is just from TEST members I can see online right now.



Citation needed.

Yup I know friends who have lost family members.

I met a friend’s mom recently who’s a survivor. She still struggles to breath even though she had COVID in November of last year. She wanted to congratulate me for something and it took her forever to rasp those words out. It’s heartbreaking.

 

[Bambooza]

O-Lefty will disagree with you on that, he lost his grandmother because a caregiver was careless and gave it to her.

Another mod here in TEST got COVID twice and now has permanently diminished lung capacity. If he was older or in worse physical health, he would be dead.

Another member that Griffin has on his podcast lost her younger brother.

Another member who posted a few posts back in this thread lost his father in-law.

This is just from TEST members I can see online right now.



Citation needed.

So three out of how many? Still seems like most have not.

I am not attempting to downplay the pain and suffering that went into the loss of life as all life is precious and comes to an end far too soon. I understand this is a painful subject for some while others are sympathetic to the pain of others they themselves will find themselves going about their lives and complain about the economic negative impacts they are experiencing. Neither point of view is wrong, but we as a society must live with the choices we make. There are indeed people who are dying from Covid and leaving holes in the lives of those who cared about them. And there are those who are suffering financially from the restrictions placed upon them for a disease that has had no impact on their friends and family members, which in many ways is more an abstract concept. Then there is the third group who has not had anyone they know affected killed by covid have not been financially impacted and yet still live in constant fear of catching covid and dying. While this is far more nuance and variance within the population I am not sure where the balance is between it all.

Airborne particulate metals in the New York City subway: A pilot study to assess the potential for health impacts

A prior study in New York City observed that airborne concentrations of three metals found in steel – iron, manganese, and chromium – are more than 100 times higher in the subway system than in aboveground air. To investigate the potential ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Identification and determination of highly carcinogenic dibenzopyrene isomers in air particulate samples from a street canyon, a rooftop, and a subway station in Stockholm - PubMed

This study presents determined levels of the highly carcinogenic dibenzopyrene isomers dibenzo(a,l)pyrene, dibenzo(a,e)pyrene, dibenzo(a,l)pyrene, and dibenzo(a,h)pyrene as well as three other polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs)--benzo(a)pyrene, perylene and coronene--in ambient particulate...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Black snot and cancer risks: NYC subway air is full of pollution

Don’t be fooled by the fact that the trains run on electricity: Diesel fumes stink up subway air, adding to a toxic brew of pollution that researchers say is bad for you. Operating a passenge…

www.nydailynews.com

Is underground transit bad for your health?

USC researchers measure particulate matter along popular L.A. routes, finding that some exposed passengers to greater concentrations of carcinogens.

news.usc.edu

Cancer and non-cancer risk associated with PM10-bound metals in subways

Non-cancer and cancer health risks to humans associated with respirable particulate matter ≤10 µm (PM10) in an indoor microenvironment such as a subwa…

www.sciencedirect.com

Organophosphate esters in airborne particles from subway stations

For the first time, the concentrations of 19 organophosphate esters (OPEs) were measured in airborne fine particulate matter (PM2.5) from subway stati…

www.sciencedirect.com

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/es062232p

PATH and NYC’s subway air is unsurprisingly toxic

A new study has found that the city’s underground subway air quality is full of hazardous air particles that could cause asthma, lung cancer and heart disease.

www.cityandstateny.com

The 116 things that can give you cancer – the full list

Rocked by the news that processed meat could be terribly bad for you? Well, chimney sweeping, salted fish and fracking also appear on the list compiled by the International Agency for Research on Cancer

www.theguardian.com

Benzene and Cancer Risk

Benzene is a colorless, flammable liquid with a sweet odor. Learn what we know about benzene and cancer risk.

www.cancer.org

https://digital.csic.es/bitstream/10261/227319/1/183-STOTEN-OPEs%20Metro.pdf

http://nycosh.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/TWU_Report_Final-8-4-05.pdf

Railroad Jobs Exposed to Carcinogens

Railroad workers with cancer from toxic chemicals, diesel, creosote, benzene, asbestos, etc. - Contact our Texas lawyers for lawsuit info at (866) 879-3040.

www.theclarkfirmtexas.com

You Might Be Breathing Cancer-Causing Toxic Metals During Your Commute

You may have thought the stress of your morning commute was going to kill you, but actually it is the air pollution.

www.ibtimes.com

Grand Central Station's Asbestos Exposure and Litigation History

Discover the history of asbestos use at Grand Central Station and the resulting litigation. Learn about its impact on worker safety and public health.

www.asbestos.com

https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/99d2-TSAQ-HIA-Final-Report-November-25_2019.pdf

 

[Montoya]

So three out of how many? Still seems like most have not.

You said most have not, I quickly scanned the names of people online right now and easily pulled three, but now you question that its only three? What would the right number be for you to consider that COVID is actually a problem? 10? 20? 50?

Keep it mind its only three that I know of, never mind the true number which is likely much higher just within this community.

As for your subway cancer studies, did we not understand each other?

Are you A) more likely to catch COVID from a fellow passenger or B) get cancer.

If you have ever ridden in a subway during rush hour, the answer should be obvious.

 

[Bambooza]

You said most have not, I quickly scanned the names of people online right now and easily pulled three, but now you question that its only three? What would the right number be for you to consider that COVID is actually a problem? 10? 20? 50?

Keep it mind its only three that I know of, never mind the true number which is likely much higher just within this community.

While it would be interesting to know the number of members directly impacted by Covid on a macro scale in the USA there are 328.2 million people. As of this moment, there have been 641k deaths. That calculates out to having to know over 500 people before you know one who has died. The average social circle size is 150 which translates to about 1 in 4 social circles have had a covid related death or 25% of the population has lost someone they know about. It's not insignificant but it's also important to realize that a significant part of the population will not be impacted by a covid related death.

As for your subway cancer studies, did we not understand each other?

Are you A) more likely to catch COVID from a fellow passenger or B) get cancer.

If you have ever ridden in a subway during rush hour, the answer should be obvious.

Maybe not. I took it as what is a greater risk to your health. The stranger in the subway or the subway itself. Currently, there is an estimated 350k infected with Covid in the USA. Out of 328 million that equates to 0.10 percent chance that the stranger on the subway has an active covid infection. If they are infected you have a 1 in 4 chance of being infected which puts your chances 0.03% of being infected, which translates to 0.005% chance of being infected and dying from that stranger in the subway. Most people have a 1 in 4 chance of dying of cancer and most subways have been tested to be far higher in carcinogenic airborne molecules than outside air thus increasing your chances of cancer, to what extent is unknown.

But like all things the more you are exposed the higher your risk, but it goes for all things. Like the more, you drive the higher your risk of being involved in a fatal car accident. The more you are out in the sun the higher your risk of developing Melanoma. The more you are around other people the higher your risk of contacting Covid .

 

[Vavrik]

Thanks @Aramsolari, I needed that.

@Bambooza:

• In the last 2 weeks, I have lost a grandson to COVID. Life is not fair, I understand that but I never got to meet him because of my own medical condition and then COVID travel restrictions.
• My oldest son (Navy, and not the parent of the above) is being discharged for medical reasons. He has had COVID twice, both in the line of duty. He cannot be vaccinated either right now because of the risk, and he can catch it again if exposed.
• My wife lost an uncle this past winter. He was 66.

That's just family.

I worked in the Life Sciences industry for 25 years before I had to leave 3 years ago do to disability. Do you want an enumeration of the losses?

I don't fear death, in part because of my disability, or rather the way I became disabled. But I don't relish the idea of dying the way someone dies with COVID. You're in an ICU, alone except for medical staff who monitor your condition through a window. When one of them needs to come in to check on you, they are dressed like you're a biohazard, and not a human. And you are a biohazard. Then, at some point if they have one they insert a ventilator. They normally sedate you, and push a tube up your nose and down your throat. You're sedated so you don't squirm like a stuck pig or scream in agony. No worries, it's over pretty quickly, then it's just the sound of the ventilator. Once things have gone that far, you have a 30% chance. And no family or friends around. You're a biohazard.
Trust me, you don't really want to know how someone dies if they don't have any ventilators left.

I've watched someone getting ventilated. It was back in 2018. I was in the room that shared the same nurses. He didn't make it. Not a great memory.