Did you know you were part of "toxic fan entitlement"?

Bruttle

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So it's come to this. EA is planting their feet in defense of predatory microtransactions. Bioware is fully invested into the "less is more" mentality in their games. Activision is... well, it's doing what activision does best (and hemorrhaging money for it). The list goes on and on. It hasn't been a really good couple years for video game fans. We've really had some shady games shoveled our way and the industry has taken some serious turns for the worse.

... Then I come across this article. "Game Developers, it's time to stop listening to fans". It starts off by listing the Mass Effect 3 feedback as the start of "toxic fan entitlement" and it just leans into it from there. It talks about the various detrimental changes and adjustments that have been made to satisfy gamer feedback. It also talks about some of the outlandish requests that gamers have made. For instance, did you know that there was a petition to Obama about Devil May Cry? I didn't. Long story short, the article tries to make a convincing argument that gamer feedback isn't always productive. In that point I agree.

That's where my agreement stops though. The article highlights some of the outliers and uses them to make their case. However, it completely glazes over and attempts to excuse the main issues that are at hand. The main issues are and always will be the same. These are a lack of content, lack of optimization, bugs, predatory tactics, over-hyping, lies, lack of sufficient anti-cheat, DLC madness, P2W, paywalls, and even all out developer scams. THAT is what gamers object to, not the storyline of a DmC game. Yet these issues combined got less room on the page than some ridiculous petition that some gamers made to Obama....freaking Obama?! Who in their right mind petitions Obama about a video game?

Now, I do understand what this article is. Every major industry will fight to the death for their cash flow. The video game industry is no different. They are seriously worried that one of their major cash cows is on the chopping block, loot boxes. Gamers have been rattling their proverbial sabres about this issue and more for a very long time. Slowly and finally, legal action is being taken. I am so happy to see it. As a result though, we will see many more corporate sponsored articles like this popping up.

To be clear, I don't disagree with the article. It makes some very valid points. However, on the whole it sidesteps the major issues and focuses on the ridiculous. It tries to make it look like the vocal minority represents the whole. It makes it sound like we are being unreasonable in our requests by cherry picking their arguments. It makes us sound like uneducated fools that "just do not understand game development" and so are not qualified to make requests. In that, I completely and totally disagree.

When it all boils down to it, the majority of us really don't care about the minutia. We won't agree with every choice, but we will be more or less happy with the results as long as one request is fulfilled. Give us a fair product for a fair price. That's it.
 

Montoya

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I have a lot to say on this topic.

We all know the problems with EA and big publishers, nobody likes what they are doing, but we understand why.

If you own a mutual fund or if you invest and EA is one of your holdings, you like seeing those profits role in.

On the other hand, as a gamer, you are not happy with the fact that they want to sell you a half assed game and then hit you with DLC's for the same price as the actual game, not to mention p2w loot boxes for that sense of pride and accomplishment.

My thoughts are that the free market will react, and while it is not happening very fast, we have seen games like Kingdom Come and obviously the big up and coming Cyberpunk show us that great games can be made without the likes of EA.

Something a little closer to home, Star Citizen is being made as a direct result of a game maker not wanting to rely on the likes of EA for publishing. While Star Citizen has yet to successfully launch, we are all here on this forum as a because the free market is attempting to change the landscape of traditional game development.

In conclusion, Im thirsty but its too early for a beer, so lets get another coffee.
 

Montoya

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On the topic of toxic fan entitlement, there is a lot to talk about there, but for the most part its correct. A game publisher should make the game they want and not bend the knee to every whim some basement dweller is screaming about.

An example of this on a smaller scale would be the hardcore dogfighters in Star Citizen screaming about how they don't want easy mode, and dogfights should be very difficult. You will always have a loud minority that would like to influence the direction of a game in a way that suits them and not the majority.

On the other hand, sometimes the wisdom of crowds has it right.

Anthem is a classic example of the vast majority of "entitled fans" knowing EXACTLY what is wrong and needed to be fixed, yet Bioware sees the feedback as entitled garbage and ignores it.

Bottom line is there is no clear cut path, good arguments can be made on both sides here.
 

FZD

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I'm not entirely convinced about the authors view of criticism:
Criticism is just that: pointing out that something could be better. It’s not asking for something to be changed.
That makes no sense. It's like, "Hey, I noticed your shoelaces are untied, but I'm in no way suggesting you'd tie them."
If you don't want something to be changed for the better, then why are you criticizing it? Is the point just to put someone down?

Apart from anything that has anything to do with criticism, an okey article.
 

Deroth

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NaffNaffBobFace

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My demands as a toxic entitled fan of SC are as follows:

1) I want a pet rock to be produced by the Rock Raiders division. It will be the perfect spacers pet as it shall need no food, water or even air. It shall have stick-on googly eyes and be themed to it's system of origin with special cardboard cutout extras, like a surf board for Nemo, a pair of shades for Tyrol etc. They shall have many uses including blunt object for self defence, hammering qualities for repairing a spacecraft and special ones will have a data-chip embedded in them to be able to carry information for you. Radio-active pet rocks have special lead-glass cages to live in and will of course glow in the dark.

2) I want TEST Weapons Research Lab to release the TP-20,000, a toilet paper gun that can work in Zero atmosphere with the use of micro-tractor beams mounted on the end of a pole with a roll of bumwad at the other end. Ammo will be plentiful since they introduced toilets in many ships.

3) I want the Endeavor Super Collider to be converted into a Capital Ship scale EMP by throwing a box of fridge magnets into it.

4) I want the 350R to have Anti-G, G-Safe merely nerfs a ships performance to a level you can stay awake. That is not luxurious, that is not cutting edge technology. I want and Anti-G artificial gravity rig to pull in the other direction of the G forces, allowing a pilot to use all of that delicious performance in comfort. The Anti-G doesn't have to be 100%, it could cure 60% of G with the other 40% being taken care of by the Origin Race Suit, so it wouldn't be too overpowered.

Those are my demands.

Do I expect to get any of them? Teehee, no I don't.

EDIT - Sod it I read it. Not a terrible article but definitely opinion piece, so:

"BioWare has a lot to answer for, basically. Mass Effect 3 feels like ground zero for toxic fan entitlement. I’m sure the developer was just trying to do the right thing, but it changed the ending of its game due to negative feedback, bending its creative vision to pander to the baying masses. This rarely happens in any other medium..."
"Focus Groups" and "pre-release screenings" are a thing in the film industry. They have changed the way whole films have not only ended, but also how they have been edited just because a bunch, sometimes a lot, of layman pre-release viewers didn't understand or like what they saw on the screen. The motion picture industry has had over 100 years to get that act together. Games, especially online and especially where you can change things like an ending with a patch, not a re-release, have only around a few years in this form. It's new ground that has only just been broken and they still need to find the right reaction to this. Is it focus groups? Is it multiple choice endings? Is it the game extrapolating what the player is going to appreciate most at the end and providing it, meaning the game plays the user as much as the user plays the game...? Whoever works it out will make the games industry a better - or worse - place. Crowd wisdom isn't always a clever thing.

Otherwise, I see their angle. I don't think they may have the same one as me, but then I'm not trying to force CIG to include a bog-roll canon in the game. Much.
 
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MurderingPsycho

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Give us a fair product for a fair price. That's it.
Until gamers are actually willing to vote with their wallets, and be willing to go without mediocre games for a while, this will not happen. People can complain about publishers all day long but as long as the games sell, nothing you say as you hand over the cash matters. Anthem, Andromeda and Fallout 76 are the way they are because they will sell regardless. Bethesda has released broken games for over a decade that were only fixed by the modding community after the fact and people still bought 76 knowing that modders wouldn't be allowed to fix it. If people started refusing to by broken games then the shareholders at these companies would start demanding a change. When that happens, then things will change. Remember, the job of the execs at these companies is to make money for shareholders, not games, the games are just a tool to make the money.

A game publisher should make the game they want and not bend the knee to every whim some basement dweller is screaming about.
This rarely happens and it's almost never because of "toxic fans". The games people want to make don't line up with the profit margins required by these companies. I doubt any game dev wants to release buggy, broken games filled with micro-transactions and gambling aimed at children's FOMO.
 

Montoya

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The games people want to make don't line up with the profit margins required by these companies.
Cyberpunk begs to differ ;)

But in developers defense, I think its damn near impossible to squash every single bug in a game before release these days.

I can let a few bugs slip by as long as they are not complete blockers.
 

MurderingPsycho

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Cyberpunk begs to differ ;)

But in developers defense, I think its damn near impossible to squash every single bug in a game before release these days.

I can let a few bugs slip by as long as they are not complete blockers.
I really hope you're right about Cyberpunk, I'm excited about it too, but it ain't out yet. Don't let hype and hope blind you, we'll see how the game is when it's released.

And yes, a few bugs are understandable but some of these companies are releasing games that have game breaking bugs. The kind that would have been impossible to not see. They release anyway because they have been doing it for years and know that people will buy the game anyway and just hope that it gets fixed later. Bethesda in particular has known issues with the game engine that effect every game that they release with it. When a bug has been present for four games, you are just letting it go because you know you can.
 

Deroth

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My demands as a toxic entitled fan of SC are as follows:

1) I want a pet rock to be produced by the Rock Raiders division. It will be the perfect spacers pet as it shall need no food, water or even air. It shall have stick-on googly eyes and be themed to it's system of origin with special cardboard cutout extras, like a surf board for Nemo, a pair of shades for Tyrol etc. They shall have many uses including blunt object for self defence, hammering qualities for repairing a spacecraft and special ones will have a data-chip embedded in them to be able to carry information for you. Radio-active pet rocks have special lead-glass cages to live in and will of course glow in the dark.

2) I want TEST Weapons Research Lab to release the TP-20,000, a toilet paper gun that can work in Zero atmosphere with the use of micro-tractor beams mounted on the end of a pole with a roll of bumwad at the other end. Ammo will be plentiful since they introduced toilets in many ships.

3) I want the Endeavor Super Collider to be converted into a Capital Ship scale EMP by throwing a box of fridge magnets into it.

4) I want the 350R to have Anti-G, G-Safe merely nerfs a ships performance to a level you can stay awake. That is not luxurious, that is not cutting edge technology. I want and Anti-G artificial gravity rig to pull in the other direction of the G forces, allowing a pilot to use all of that delicious performance in comfort. The Anti-G doesn't have to be 100%, it could cure 60% of G with the other 40% being taken care of by the Origin Race Suit, so it wouldn't be too overpowered.

Those are my demands.

Do I expect to get any of them? Teehee, no I don't.

EDIT - Sod it I read it. Not a terrible article but definitely opinion piece, so:



"Focus Groups" and "pre-release screenings" are a thing in the film industry. They have changed the way whole films have not only ended, but also how they have been edited just because a bunch, sometimes a lot, of layman pre-release viewers didn't understand or like what they saw on the screen. The motion picture industry has had over 100 years to get that act together. Games, especially online and especially where you can change things like an ending with a patch, not a re-release, have only around a few years in this form. It's new ground that has only just been broken and they still need to find the right reaction to this. Is it focus groups? Is it multiple choice endings? Is it the game extrapolating what the player is going to appreciate most at the end and providing it, meaning the game plays the user as much as the user plays the game...? Whoever works it out will make the games industry a better - or worse - place. Crowd wisdom isn't always a clever thing.

Otherwise, I see their angle. I don't think they may have the same one as me, but then I'm not trying to force CIG to include a bog-roll canon in the game. Much.
Example: Rambo

In the original screened version Rambo died, but that ending was so disliked they changed it leading to there now being five movies and a lot of other media.

 

LoicFarris

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I was going to respond to this, then I read what @Montoya wrote. Basically my opinion would be a rehash of his. That being said I'll add one small point.

I am pleased to see legal action being made against loot-boxes and predatory practices in video games. Now, I'm going to contradict my self a little. I'm terrified to see the government(s) getting involved with the practices of video game development as well. The reason is simple, will they stop at loot-boxes and predatory practices or will the arm of the government eventually regulate something we don't want them to regulate... like say, how many hours you can play in a given week.
 

Deroth

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I was going to respond to this, then I read what @Montoya wrote. Basically my opinion would be a rehash of his. That being said I'll add one small point.

I am pleased to see legal action being made against loot-boxes and predatory practices in video games. Now, I'm going to contradict my self a little. I'm terrified to see the government(s) getting involved with the practices of video game development as well. The reason is simple, will they stop at loot-boxes and predatory practices or will the arm of the government eventually regulate something we don't want them to regulate... like say, how many hours you can play in a given week.
If their handlers tell them they can spin it to their benefit during reelection, then a resounding most definitely.
 

LoicFarris

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@Montoya I'm planning a working title currently called "What was the golden age of gaming."

Do you mind if I refer to this thread, this is your forum after-all, in the video?

Does anybody else care if I use this?

Family leaves for Europe for 2 months on Thursday, so filming will start Thursday night.
 

August

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Practically every large film goes through test screenings where everyday people can give feedback on specific topics (did I understand what happened, did I like it when X happened to Y causing Z). That feedback can be reviewed and may or may not be acted on before a films wider release.

We have a similar thing with SC where Chris is in the drivers seat but we all get to voice our opinion. Take the landing system in 3.6 for example, fan feedback is desperately needed and RSI have asked for it.

When feedback is *not* solicited, it shouldn’t be acted on. That’s the decision of the creators to run with their own vision and that’s perfectly fine too - CDProject Red don’t give a shit if people have an issue with trans women or not.
 

LoicFarris

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CDProject Red don’t give a shit if people have an issue with trans women or not.
I would personally be offended by the lack of the trans women poster. In fact, I'm slightly offended that there isn't one on the side of a building 20 stories tall.
 

LoicFarris

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Dont get me started!

They have over complicated something that was done very simply and elegantly in Elite Dangerous years ago!

rabble rabble rabble!
I just got E.D. and was amazed by how simple it was to land using the guidance system. Honestly SC needs to just copy that, take the flack for copying it and move on.
 

August

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Dont get me started!

They have over complicated something that was done very simply and elegantly in Elite Dangerous years ago!

rabble rabble rabble!
At the risk of derailing the topic, I was playing last night and really enjoyed the new flight system right up to the point that I had to land.

Back on-topic, there has actually been something of a swing by many of the older gaming sites towards publishers. There’s an interesting video on this topic below.

View: https://youtu.be/HPHTxqPNIUI
Personally I still think that unless companies ask for feedback they should ignore it. I think it can lead to games being released as the minimum viable product, and only the things which people complain about are addressed.
 
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