[Discussion] Divisions of TEST - Brainstorm

[NKato]

You didn't read past my first sentence did you?
"Everything in the logistics division could be handled by or will necessarily already exist in both the military or econ divisions."
Adding a logistics division that acts as an intermediary between the two is unnecessary.

That's not an issue. Having military and econ divisions maintain some degree of on-demand logistics capability doesn't necessarily impinge on the Logistics Division's capability or mission statement. You have to remember, people in military and econ aren't as well inclined to dedicate nearly all their playtime to moving boxes. (Basically, Warren's explanation, in my own words)

Logistics Division is for people who like to play Cargo Container Simulator, as well as other types of logistics (info logi and exploration).

So it makes sense to split up the roles properly, but when you consider that the Combat division will usually be the one to pull the trigger on a massive op and won't have the capabilities to move massive quantities of equipment and munitions, that's when they turn to the Logistics Division.

So basically Logistics division will actually be more like fleet operations while transportation of goods will be handled separately by Econ Division.

Yeah, but Econ Division will focus on procurement of necessary goods for the Logistics and Combat divisions, and turn custody of those goods to the Logistics Divisions or to someone from the Combat Division that needs those goods immediately. The Economics Division will be the primary holder of responsibility for trade goods. Basically, Trade Goods are goods that do not have any demand in TEST, and/or are goods that were not requested by the other divisions, which will go towards increasing the value of the Economics Division's financial ledger (which in turn will fund the other two divisions).

I created a basic flowchart of the structure:

Basically, all three divisions can offer their services and capabilities to each other, and this in turn creates a natural supply & demand and interchange of commodities, money, and manpower. By creating a divisional structure in this manner, we are able to also encourage greater cooperation between the different disciplines of TEST Squadron.

 

[NKato]

To go on a temporary tangent: In my opinion, any kind of fleet-style ranking should start at the Recruit rank and stop at Fleet Commander. The full layout should be decided through consensus. Beyond Fleet Commander is the "Flat leadership structure", all of which would be named Chiefs, like what I explain below.

In the spirit of equality, I think the titles for the offices running each division should be like this:

• Combat Division Chief
• Logistics Division Chief
• Economics Division Chief

That way, we don't run around trying to invent ranks and be self-important twats. Military-style rank structure below these offices would probably have to be worked out for the squadron through consensus. (And in my opinion, the ranks should be role-oriented) That's something we can work out in a different discussion thread.

And where does Montoya and Seung fit into all this? That's simple.

• Executive Chief of TEST Squadron - Essentially the helmsman of the entire organization. The man sets a direction, and everyone else executes on it.
  
• Diplomatic Chief of TEST Squadron - Responsible for resolving and maintaining inter-org relationships and internal conflicts.

 

[Czechmate]

Ok, now I understand. You're using the logistics division for more than just logistics. So instead of being logistics its more of an Operations division. Wouldn't that be a more apt name then?

 

[Jernik]

I like the idea. It's simple enough even a drunk could follow it, but also has enough structure to keep it together. Obviously, we'd have to keep on eye on the idea to make sure that any future changes to org structures in SC don't upset this, but I like it.

 

[NKato]

Ok, now I understand. You're using the logistics division for more than just logistics. So instead of being logistics its more of an Operations division. Wouldn't that be a more apt name then?

Yes, but calling it Operations Division runs the risk of creating confusion between Combat and Logistics when you have to consider that StratOps are a thing, and fleet ops are a thing, both in the combat sense - which are not things that the Logistics Division will handle, except in a support capacity.

It's better to call it the Logistics Division.

A quick google brings about this definition:

• the organization of moving, housing, and supplying troops and equipment.
  noun: logistics
• the commercial activity of transporting goods to customers.
  "Germany's largest beverage logistics organization"

Basically, Logistics moves stuff - be it cargo, information/data, equipment, and personnel. Of course, some non-logistics roles are folded into the Division, but that's primarily because they complement certain professions well.

Example: Exploration, aka Pioneer profession, involves the acquisition of data and moving it, as well as charting out things. This, while not ostensibly a Logistics-related description, still falls into the Logistics Division because it produces data that must be moved by specialists (such as Drake Herald runners).

If we placed Exploration into another division with a separate command structure, that would create a time and serviceability gap between the acquisition of data by a Pioneer, and the movement of said data to its intended destination -which is the responsibility of Logistics. By folding Pioneers into Logistics, we enable the establishment of a readily-usable support backbone for the explorers with minimal fuss.

Another good reason for my wanting to fold Exploration into Logistics is that Exploration generates data that can be sold/traded to the Economics Division, thus providing Logistics with a valuable revenue stream. Logistics doesn't deal in trade or bounties, so it needs a reliable source of revenue to fund its own operations should an unforeseen situation occur with the finance stream from the Economics Division.

The reason I structured it this way is to make sure each division can also fund themselves in the event of a sudden shock to the organizational system, thereby reducing the risks.

 

[SeungRyul]

Love the work you put into brainstorming this! Agree with everything and would love to integrate these branches into our RSI org when Org 2.0 launches!!

Some people have been asking whether there will be a division for the more fringe stuff such as espionage, racing, etc.

 

[Black Sunder]

Just want to say I liked the OP and support it 100%.

NKato has the right idea about his structure tree and heres an example of why using ship reclamation(repairing of a ship) as an example: Say Logistics exploration people or even a few explorers in the econ area are on one day hunting around for stuff when one of them scans down a Pegesus that is floating in space dead.

Immediately person X is on mumble telling the highest ranking officer online that time(doesn't matter what division) whats going on. If that person is not Montoya or Seung then they would be responsible for getting one of them on to oversee the Op. Meanwhile that person is also calling up division leaders(or 2nd in commands etc) to begin organizing movement of ships, troops, and supplies. Person X is checking out the derelict or waiting for someone from Mining/Salvage to come help determine if it can be reclaimed(repaired with Crucibles) for TEST or needs to be salvaged(stripped down, chewed up for raw materials with Reclaimers). Regardless, both sets of ships are being mobilized in large quantities due to this being an emergency and a rare find.

So whats going on here? Combat is putting together a full fleet to provide security and sending them to the site as soon as they are ready from all around the galaxy. Logistics is gathering necessary supplies off the shelf or from hangars to load into transports to haul to the site to help with the ships' repair or breakdown. Econ is gathering ships up as well and the best crews they can find to either reclaim or salvage the ship depending on its condition with salvaging being an absolutely last resort on such a large ship.

Each part of this was necessary to the whole op regardless of the outcome we may have a new Pegasus or a bunch of scrap to dump on the market. Either way TEST won.

Also theres a whole separation of powers deal and 3 has always been a good number to balance things out. Well until the miners start taking their Orions into combat to mine a capital ship out of its hull and deploy spider miners on it to carve it up for the Reclaimers to feast upon. But that won't happen until the 2nd week at least.

 

[that_frog_kurtis]

As a Beerfarer owner, I have noticed that there is no specific fuel production and distribution. I guess it kinda splits up between economy and logistics, but a dedicated stand alone fuel production and supply chain for TEST would be awesome. Testes get cheaper fuel than anyone else, we sell the surplus, ???, profit.

 

[WarrenPeace]

As a Beerfarer owner, I have noticed that there is no specific fuel production and distribution. I guess it kinda splits up between economy and logistics, but a dedicated stand alone fuel production and supply chain for TEST would be awesome. Testes get cheaper fuel than anyone else, we sell the surplus, ???, profit.

I kinda feel like all groups would need a fuel arm, for extended operations. I'd guess that those interested in fuel for profit would fall under Economy.

 

[NKato]

I kinda feel like all groups would need a fuel arm, for extended operations. I'd guess that those interested in fuel for profit would fall under Economy.

Nailed it. Beerfarer owners will be able to provide their ships for any of the three divisions' needs, where possible. I plan on making my Starfarer available for combat ops wherever possible. :)

 

[that_frog_kurtis]

I kinda feel like all groups would need a fuel arm, for extended operations. I'd guess that those interested in fuel for profit would fall under Economy.

Yeah so there's an extended op going on and the logistics officer of that op liaises with a fuel supply coordinator for x amount of fuel and when/where as part of the supply chain. I think one big group taking jobs/requests from the rest of the squadron will be much more capable if it's well coordinated than each individual group having it's own small fuel supply units.

Personally I would really enjoy putting around collecting for the Best Squardon's reserves, and seeing a job come up that x op needs y starfarers and being able to put my hand up to go, or just being sent off by my ops manager to refuel some teste because I'm the closest or w/e.

I dunno, I'm not a logistics expert.

 

[Shar Treuse]

Fuel is just another good like any other. Procurement, processing, transportation and utilization still occur, like with any other good, but obviously implementation is different because it can all be done with one single ship.

Example: I once worked for Shaw Media in the head office. Unlike any other company I have ever seen, they had implemented two separate IT groups: IT and Desktop Services. IT was as usual populated by the geeks and nerds who ran the servers and could barely communicate with other human beings, while Desktop Services was full of people who possessed both computer skills and people skills, and these were the ones who set up and maintained the workstations that everyone else used.

This Desktop Services division was unlike anything I have seen before or since. It operated as a profit center, unlike IT departments in other companies. Procurement of computers was done by DS, but paid for by the department that employed the person for whom the computer was being bought. Services from installation through technical support and training were billed at fairly low rates for the general IT services industry. It interacted with every division and department of the company, but independent of any of them, except where it interfaced with the geeks in the server room.

This is how I see fuel being managed in TEST. A distinct group that would interface with every other branch. Because Beerfarers will be able to scoop fuel from a gas giant, optionally process it onboard, and deliver it to where it is needed (or to the market), their pilots/owners won't really fall into any particular category (Econ, Logistics, Combat), but they will be servicing a general need that all divisions have.

There also may be opportunities to work the other way, where services are provided to the fuel people by other divisions. Perhaps a particular gas giant is controlled by a system government. Rather than each pilot dealing with that government individually, the Econ division would procure a license for all TEST Beerfarer pilots to scoop fuel from the planet. Payment of any taxes or "mineral rights" fees would be set in the contract and either paid by TEST Econ Div. or by the individual pilot depending on what works best, which might be different in each case. Or maybe an escort is needed to protect the fuel ship in a system where piracy or war is rampant, in which case the Combat division would be the natural group to fly that mission instead of the Beerfarer pilot hiring mercenaries who may not be as trustworthy. Rather in the same way that Combat would fly escort for Logistics carry goods procured by Econ.

 

[Halvix]

If you could make your flowchart look like the test logo and change the color coding to black and yellow.. oh and add beer it would be perfect...

Other than that it all looks pretty good. As time goes by and we get closer to a full version of Star Citizen I'm sure it will see some changes, but it is a good starting point. There's a lot of unknowns still as far as what you can and can't do in the persistent universe. But looks like you've covered the overall structure pretty well.

As far as the illicit activities such as piracy and smuggling, perhaps those could be included in a hidden division of Test. An underworld organization that isn't spoken of, yet still exists. This underworld would have subdivisions of its own.

 

[that_frog_kurtis]

I agree Shar Treuse.

This is how I see fuel being managed in TEST. A distinct group that would interface with every other branch. Because Beerfarers will be able to scoop fuel from a gas giant, optionally process it onboard, and deliver it to where it is needed (or to the market), their pilots/owners won't really fall into any particular category (Econ, Logistics, Combat), but they will be servicing a general need that all divisions have.

Exactly. The reason I'd hesitate to split up the production and the supply into into Econ and Logi respectively,or into even smaller units, is that it looks like it will be the same guys doing both jobs. Splitting up the control of these guys would be a nightmare. Production and supply should fall under one command. Fuel is a consumable that is constantly needed by the whole squadron, and anything left over is a commodity that could fall into Econ's jurisdiction.

There also may be opportunities to work the other way, where services are provided to the fuel people by other divisions.

Absolutely. Just as a logistics officer from Combat would request x starfarers for an op, so could a fuel supply coordinator request an escort for collectors or transporters being harassed by pirates etc.

Testenergy division ftw.

 

[NKato]

I agree Shar Treuse.



Exactly. The reason I'd hesitate to split up the production and the supply into into Econ and Logi respectively,or into even smaller units, is that it looks like it will be the same guys doing both jobs. Splitting up the control of these guys would be a nightmare. Production and supply should fall under one command. Fuel is a consumable that is constantly needed by the whole squadron, and anything left over is a commodity that could fall into Econ's jurisdiction.



Absolutely. Just as a logistics officer from Combat would request x starfarers for an op, so could a fuel supply coordinator request an escort for collectors or transporters being harassed by pirates etc.

Testenergy division ftw.

Responding to the paragraph in bold, I think this is a good concern to have. In terms of resource procurement, the ECON division would deal with the purchase and supply of fuel, while the LOGI Division would be focused on the in-situ supply and transport of the fuel, as well as acquisition on an ad-hoc basis if there are no ready sources of fuel supply.

Here's a scenario:

Let's say we're out in the boonies at System Fuck-Nowhere, and the nearest station with a refueling capability is three jumps out. But we have a Hydrogen Gas Giant in-system. This would become the responsibility of the Logistics Division to harvest and supply the fuel using their own Starfarers, as well as any units stationed in the system (for example, a combat division that's being deployed in this place would be expected to bring at LEAST one Starfarer to ensure self-sufficiency should Logistics fall short in its deliveries).

Conversely, say we're located in the Odin System. The ECON Division would bankroll the purchase of the fuel and Logistics - or any available fuel-transport asset - would pick up the fuel and transport it to where our Org Hangar is.

In other words, ECON is responsible for anything that requires a sizable sum of money to purchase, and can either assign someone to handle its end-destination transport, or handle it themselves. At the same time, Logistics is responsible for coming up with solutions to problems that arise where money cannot solve it.

 

[Czechmate]

Kurtis has a point. Most people I know who are interested in Business and industrial will also be interested in logistics. I know I am. Maybe we should just roll logistics into Econ.

 

[NKato]

Kurtis has a point. Most people I know who are interested in Business and industrial will also be interested in logistics. I know I am. Maybe we should just roll logistics into Econ.

You're trying really hard, aren't you?

 

[Czechmate]

You're trying really hard, aren't you?

Yes, because I believe separating it out is pointless and just adds another layer of complication that doesn't need to be there.

 

[NKato]

Yes, because I believe separating it out is pointless and just adds another layer of complication that doesn't need to be there.

This is hardly that complicated. Anybody with two braincells to rub together will understand it, and it ensures that each division has something to contribute to TEST - and to each other. If we went with a two-division structure, that means more responsibilities for each division, and a greater burden to carry for each division's leaders.

Three is a comfortable number of divisions, and it ensures that the workload is split somewhat evenly according to key skillsets (with a two-div structure, the workload for leadership would be overwhelming for ECON). There's been plenty of statements and comments in favor of the three-division structure, and if you're going to propose an alternative, at least explain it in depth instead of being a nay-sayer. Let me tell you right now: based on experience from EVE Online, burn-out is a very real danger.

Therefore, I personally believe that having three divisions with specific areas of responsibilities as defined in the OP, is the best structure at this time. Anything that happens to fall outside of those defined areas of responsibilities can be reconciled between the relevant divisions as needed.

 

[that_frog_kurtis]

I'm not directly disagreeing, like I say I'm no expert, but this does seem needlessly complicated. While we might have a lot of starfarers, splitting them up into lots of different units would make things pretty uneconomical and needlessly lock their drivers into one type of role. Logistics farer drivers could only really expect to haul, Econ drivers could only expect to gather or refine and neither would ever be directly attached to combat missions as only combat farer drivers would have that option. It also requires a lot more people doing the organisation and has more links in the command chain.

Same scenario.

Let's say we're out in the boonies at System Fuck-Nowhere, and the nearest station with a refueling capability is three jumps out. We wouldn't use it anyway because paying re-sale for fuel is for chumps.

Op Logistics Officer/Quartermaster or w/e: So hey, Testenergy, we have run out of fuel.
Testenergy Coordinator: What happened to the two Bearfarers you asked to be attached to your op? I'm seeing that there is a hydrogen giant in system, get them to refine some.
Op Logistics Officer: Yeah, uh, they blew up trying to race each other around the Roulette.
TC: Right... OK we have 2 guys hauling surplus within 2 jumps, I've diverted them now and they have agreed to stay attached for the duration. Try not to loose these ones...

Alternately:

Op Logistics Officer: So hey, Testenergy, we have run out of fuel.
Testenergy Coordinator: OK, stand by I'll see what we have near you.
TC to associate: Fuck dude, that op needs fuel and we don't have any left after that cluster in Dagobah.
Associate: We'll have to get Econ to buy us some.
TC to Econ POC: So, can you guys buy some fuel near System Fuck-Nowhere? We ran out and that Op the Roulette is on is dead in the water.
Econ: Yip, we can buy some for you guys 2 jumps away. Got someone to pick it up?
TC: Yeah, we have two empty haulers in system.
TC to Op Logistics Officer: We have two haulers on the way, do you need to attach one to the op for the duration?
Op Logistics: Yeah that would be grand
TC: OK, neither of these guys can stick around but we have another dude who can RV with you. What's your route?
Op Logistics: Classified to you, Mr Desk Jockey.

Etc etc.