For the Salvage peeps

Vavrik

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Can salvage disintegration beams be used as a weapon during ship combat?
Interesting question. Speculation: If the other ship has it's shields and engines disabled, this should be possible. That justmeans bring some friends with enough firepower to help disable the shields and engines.
 
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Leofev

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Went back in today to try that load of cargo sitting in the Vulture. Flew out from NB and used the tractor tool to restack all the cargo. Found one box trying to occupy the same space as another but after moving stuff around it disappeared. After I was able to go back and sell 11 of my 12 boxes. One buggy SCU box remains, but overall I'll consider this a win. After howmany ever weeks its been, I've finally finished a salvage run.
 

Ayeteeone

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Interestingly, Vehicle Munching is on the roadmap, with work scheduled to finish at the end of March...
That'll be the end of that sprint, unfortunately not the end of the work for that feature. Having said that, I REALLY want to see the Claw in action! That teaser CIG did of a Reclaimer grabbing and slicing a Vulture was... satisfying.

With the mining rebalance coming in 3.19 it will also be interesting to see what 'lessons learned' get applied to Salvage.
 

Brictoria

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Bad news for anyone looking for additional salvage, repair, or refining ships:
The PU’s existing salvage vehicles are currently being put through their paces. With the continued development of the wider career, what does the future hold for Salvage vehicles?

"We currently don’t have any other salvage ships on the horizon. The Vulture was set up to be an entry-level starter ship; something accessible and usable. The Reclaimer has its lasers set up for the initial release of salvage but is still awaiting the cutting and munching gameplay when the tech progresses a little further."

With Salvage also encompassing Repair and Refining in the future, could some of the ‘verse’s lesser-discussed concepts return to the limelight?

“For Repair gameplay, we have the Vulcan, which is planned to offer Repair gameplay with its drones in addition to being able to re-arm and refuel. We also have the Crucible, which will be a dedicated repair ship with its own landing pad and repair drones. For Refining, we have the Expanse, which is a single-seater and poised to be our entry into the career, and the Galaxy, a larger multi-crew ship (if equipped with the right module).”

So, while no new vehicles are currently planned for Salvage and its related careers, there are several existing ships awaiting production as the gameplay and tech behind them progresses.
Quote taken from the latest "Jump Point".

It would be nice if each profession had even half as many ship options as combat does...
 
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Ayeteeone

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It would be nice if each profession had even half as many ship options as combat does...
Well said! It would be awesome if all the professions combined had at least half as many ships as combat does! (okay, I didn't actually count. But impressions, and general boredom with fighting at all. )
 
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Shadow Reaper

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I will respectfully disagree. While virtually all players have reasons to participate in combat, only a fraction participate in mining, salvage, transport, etc. Players need a choice between solo and multi-crew. Choices beyond this would result in one ship becoming the meta and others being routinely ignored, which makes them a waste of time in development. Each ship needs to earn it's place to be developed, IMHO. Hence it makes no sense to develop yet another mining ship when the Crucible is waiting years for release.
 
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NaffNaffBobFace

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I will respectfully disagree. While virtually all players have reasons to participate in combat, only a fraction participate in mining, salvage, transport, etc. Players need a choice between solo and multi-crew. Choices beyond this would result in one ship becoming the meta and others being routinely ignored, which makes them a waste of time in development. Each ship needs to earn it's place to be developed, IMHO. Hence it makes no sense to develop yet another mining ship when the Crucible is waiting years for release.
Agreed, the same for combat ships. Choices beyond solo and multi-crew would result in one ship becoming the meta and others being routinely ignored, which makes them a waste of time in development.
 
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Shadow Reaper

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Agreed, the same for combat ships. Choices beyond solo and multi-crew would result in one ship becoming the meta and others being routinely ignored, which makes them a waste of time in development.
Combat is not like mining. Success in mining, transport, salvage, etc. is measured by a single variable--cash/time. Combat's vast variability makes it significantly different. Players actually gravitate to different fighters based upon their skills, styles and situation. That is not true of miners. Yet we do find fighters developing metas over time. Though few would disagree that the Gladius is the fighter meta, players do have reasons to choose other fighters.

If we can give players reasons to choose differently than solo and multi-miner, salvage, etc., then CIG will have reasons to develop more of those ships, but given they do not sell as well as the fighters, what do you expect CIG to invest its time in?
 
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Brictoria

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Combat is not like mining. Success in mining, transport, salvage, etc. is measured by a single variable--cash/time.
That's taking a cynical view of mining (or other industries), but even so, here are a few opportunities in mining which could be used to influence a variety of mining ships:
  • There could be a "dual laser" mining option (similar to hull scraping) which could either be used to "scrape" a rock to gather its valuable resources, or combined to work as a more powerful mining laser for larger rocks...
  • There could be smaller versions of "rock munching" ships (like Orion), either solo or multi-crewed.
  • There could be mining ships with increased capacity (to enable longer time mining and fewer trips to refineries), but smaller fuel tanks to limit quantum drives that can be fitted (lower speed\range).
  • There could be ships (probably more suited to multi-crew) with lesser storage, but extended "stability" time, to allow for more selective Quantanium mining.
  • There could be ships with lesser storage, but able to refine what is mined (excluding volatile substances, maybe limited to 1/2/3 minerals selected by the pilot) with boxes output like salavage ships do.
  • There could be ships with onboard sorting of minerals, operating like the salvage ships, where the collectors generate 1SCU boxes of the selected material(s) that can be shifted to other ships to transport to a refinery for refining while the miner continues work.
  • There could be ships that mine faster\lower instability in target, but have to be in a "landed" state on a planet\moon surface to mine.
  • There could be a mining ship with the ability to transport a ROC, allowing the ability to mine\collect all mineable resources.
  • There could be a ship that uses "drones" (once implemented) to harvest from rocks.
  • Or a combination of these could be applied (larger capacity, extended "stability" time, limited fuel capacity, for example).

Each of these would provide a slightly different mining experience, while still being able to effectively compete for the best "cash/time" depending on the operator and how they operate\what they mine (Some of these would also be applicable for salvage as well)..

For cargo, there's a number of options already in place, which differ on the amount of cargo to move, size of cargo, distance to travel (more important once Pyro arrives), where they can deliver, and how easy they are to load/unload (as well as whether they can do this themselves or need external assistance).

Lowering\restricting income from other areas (bounty hunting\bunkers\"Quantanium" mining\etc.) to provide similar potentials across all game areas would also help and encourage people to try other areas of the game, rather than sticking to the "highest paying" options that some feel forced into\believe they have to take part in.
 

Bambooza

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That's taking a cynical view of mining (or other industries), but even so, here are a few opportunities in mining which could be used to influence a variety of mining ships:
  • There could be a "dual laser" mining option (similar to hull scraping) which could either be used to "scrape" a rock to gather its valuable resources, or combined to work as a more powerful mining laser for larger rocks...
  • There could be smaller versions of "rock munching" ships (like Orion), either solo or multi-crewed.
  • There could be mining ships with increased capacity (to enable longer time mining and fewer trips to refineries), but smaller fuel tanks to limit quantum drives that can be fitted (lower speed\range).
  • There could be ships (probably more suited to multi-crew) with lesser storage, but extended "stability" time, to allow for more selective Quantanium mining.
  • There could be ships with lesser storage, but able to refine what is mined (excluding volatile substances, maybe limited to 1/2/3 minerals selected by the pilot) with boxes output like salavage ships do.
  • There could be ships with onboard sorting of minerals, operating like the salvage ships, where the collectors generate 1SCU boxes of the selected material(s) that can be shifted to other ships to transport to a refinery for refining while the miner continues work.
  • There could be ships that mine faster\lower instability in target, but have to be in a "landed" state on a planet\moon surface to mine.
  • There could be a mining ship with the ability to transport a ROC, allowing the ability to mine\collect all mineable resources.
  • There could be a ship that uses "drones" (once implemented) to harvest from rocks.
  • Or a combination of these could be applied (larger capacity, extended "stability" time, limited fuel capacity, for example).

Each of these would provide a slightly different mining experience, while still being able to effectively compete for the best "cash/time" depending on the operator and how they operate\what they mine (Some of these would also be applicable for salvage as well)..

For cargo, there's a number of options already in place, which differ on the amount of cargo to move, size of cargo, distance to travel (more important once Pyro arrives), where they can deliver, and how easy they are to load/unload (as well as whether they can do this themselves or need external assistance).

Lowering\restricting income from other areas (bounty hunting\bunkers\"Quantanium" mining\etc.) to provide similar potentials across all game areas would also help and encourage people to try other areas of the game, rather than sticking to the "highest paying" options that some feel forced into\believe they have to take part in.
There is already a lot of this variation with different deployables and mining heads.

The other aspect I would stress is from a game design standpoint and the underlying thread as to what SC is at its heart. And that is very much a fps. It's why all ships have guns it's why so much attention and work is given to game actors in combat situations and why the lions share of the ships are combat focused. It's why other roles either support combat like the mantis or help craft combat situations like healing goods and large scale mining operations or the winners getting salvage rights. The game focuses around the risk reward of tactical engagement against other player and enemy ai.

So yes some variation in ships for the professions would be welcome in so much it would give you a different skin to go about doing the task but it doesn't take away from the main points being professions play a secondary role to combat and that there is a great deal of variations in the fitting of the ship and it looks like this will continue to grow.
 

NaffNaffBobFace

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...what SC is at its heart. And that is very much a fps...
Someone better call Chris Robets and let him know because last i heared he thinks he's making a sim :-)

I suspect this cuts all the way back to the original Kickstarter: When you sell a dream, that vision is unique to absolutely each and every single backer.

Even people who all want it to be an First Person Shooter will have a different vision built around that expectation, one person to the next - and it's not that it doesn't have elements of an FPS - it's that it isn't as dreadfully limited as an FPS.

What is it? Well, it's exactly what they said it is: The Best Damn Space Sim Ever - and they have called it a Universe Simulator in the past too.

Unless i misunderstand what you mean by FPS?

Now, Squadron 42 is predomenently a combat game and as development to this point have been shared and in some parts in concert with S42 I believe this is more reason why the lions share of ships to this point have been comat related, more than that this is the final intention for SC...?
 
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Bambooza

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I originally thought it was a full Sim as well but as development continued and all the ships currently in game as well as known have weapons and the vast majority pilot controlled. While it still has a very deep simulation it's still a simulation of a dystopia with a combat centric philosophy more akin to any fps gameplay then games like Hardspace: Shipbreaker (honestly I was hoping salvage would have gone more in this direction in depth of dismantaling instead of painting).

So as I said the game is more shaping up to be combat centric with other roles in support of that as well as give a framework around combat. Ie capture the flag is a more structured game of tag. In this case mining ops give players a point of contention and create potential for dynamic gameplay then the previous fps capture the flag. Think how jump town at is basis is just a courier mission but because we are all gun totting psychopaths it became a battleground that has lead to many shared stories. Far beyond what could have been achieved by a scripted encounter.
 
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Shadow Reaper

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Em. . .what he said.

Do we even need to argue about this? If players want to cope with the hardships of mining, or transport, or scavenging, or whatever, more power to them.

For most of us, the game is a break from reality. We don't want another job. We want an adventure.

Do I need to define, describe and delineate "adventure" and offer it up to debate?

Seriously?

CIG releases ships in coordination with what they perceive is the want and need. Who do we want to pretend is their judge?

I can whimper and whine with the best of them. Where the fuck is the X1? How is my whimpering useful in any way?
 
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Brictoria

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I originally thought it was a full Sim as well but as development continued and all the ships currently in game as well as known have weapons and the vast majority pilot controlled. While it still has a very deep simulation it's still a simulation of a dystopia with a combat centric philosophy more akin to any fps gameplay then games like Hardspace: Shipbreaker (honestly I was hoping salvage would have gone more in this direction in depth of dismantaling instead of painting).
You may still get some of that with salvage once they move on to "munching" ships and ability to remove components\drain fuel (much of the latter will probably be reliant on the implementation of drones). Sadly, with the way "soft death" now works, I'm not sure whether we'll have the risk of explosive decompression when opening doors\cutting into pressurised ships like "Hardspace: Shipbreaker" (It would make an interesting obstacle to boarding, if you risk having the cargo forcibly ejected into your direction when opening cargo bay doors).

So as I said the game is more shaping up to be combat centric with other roles in support of that as well as give a framework around combat.
Hopefully once we get more systems in the game with a full range of "security" levels (as well as persistanr reputation and NPC responce, where appropriate) it will enable a seperation of players based on the level of combat and "industry" that they find relaxing - For some players, any combat is too stressful, for others, any "industry" role is too much like work, while most players will fit somewhere in between, either with a fixed posiion, or varying based on how they are feeling on a given session.
 

Brictoria

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Someone better call Chris Robets and let him know because last i heared he thinks he's making a sim :-)

I suspect this cuts all the way back to the original Kickstarter: When you sell a dream, that vision is unique to absolutely each and every single backer.

Even people who all want it to be an First Person Shooter will have a different vision built around that expectation, one person to the next - and it's not that it doesn't have elements of an FPS - it's that it isn't as dreadfully limited as an FPS.

What is it? Well, it's exactly what they said it is: The Best Damn Space Sim Ever - and they have called it a Universe Simulator in the past too.

Unless i misunderstand what you mean by FPS?

Now, Squadron 42 is predomenently a combat game and as development to this point have been shared and in some parts in concert with S42 I believe this is more reason why the lions share of ships to this point have been comat related, more than that this is the final intention for SC...?
The problem is that everyone has their own view of what the game should be, yet few are willing to consider the views of others unless they agree with them. Add the way the game forces players with conflicting views of what the game is\"should be" into one system, and it's hard for players to find common ground or acceptance of differing gameplay "styles"\objectives to their own (Hence the large number of PVE\PVP arguments).
 

Brictoria

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If players want to cope with the hardships of mining, or transport, or scavenging, or whatever, more power to them.

For most of us, the game is a break from reality. We don't want another job. We want an adventure.
For some, "adventure" is what they want, for others, relaxation, or an escape from the stress of their work\daily life.

What some see as "relaxing" or a "break from reality", others may see as stressful, or boring\"another job". Ideally there should be enough space for players to spread out, with those looking to relax in a "peaceful" environment free to do so without impacting on, or being impacted on by, those looking for "adventure".

CIG releases ships in coordination with what they perceive is the want and need. Who do we want to pretend is their judge?
The Cutlass Steel would like a word :)
 
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Bambooza

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You may still get some of that with salvage once they move on to "munching" ships and ability to remove components\drain fuel (much of the latter will probably be reliant on the implementation of drones). Sadly, with the way "soft death" now works, I'm not sure whether we'll have the risk of explosive decompression when opening doors\cutting into pressurised ships like "Hardspace: Shipbreaker" (It would make an interesting obstacle to boarding, if you risk having the cargo forcibly ejected into your direction when opening cargo bay doors).
Given the tech demos on fire propagation and air handling it might be possible for them to create the impacts of uncontrolled decompression.

As for munching ships I have the feeling it's just going to be simply a reduced step from having to use a laser to break up the hull into smaller parts like mining currently is breaking rocks into small rocks before you can suck them up. I would even wager that the Orion will operate in the same way in the rock size being bigger in the transfer of rock to cargo vs ships like the prospector. While there might be nice animations at the end is only special in so much as it allows a skipped step or two instead of having to break it down more.

This is not to take away from the Eva experience into a wreck in the hopes some top teir modules survived. Even better if a ai crew survived and is looking to continue the fight or spawn a new mission.



Hopefully once we get more systems in the game with a full range of "security" levels (as well as persistanr reputation and NPC responce, where appropriate) it will enable a seperation of players based on the level of combat and "industry" that they find relaxing - For some players, any combat is too stressful, for others, any "industry" role is too much like work, while most players will fit somewhere in between, either with a fixed posiion, or varying based on how they are feeling on a given session.
That is the hope.
 

Brictoria

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Given the tech demos on fire propagation and air handling it might be possible for them to create the impacts of uncontrolled decompression.

As for munching ships I have the feeling it's just going to be simply a reduced step from having to use a laser to break up the hull into smaller parts like mining currently is breaking rocks into small rocks before you can suck them up. I would even wager that the Orion will operate in the same way in the rock size being bigger in the transfer of rock to cargo vs ships like the prospector. While there might be nice animations at the end is only special in so much as it allows a skipped step or two instead of having to break it down more.
It's probable the "munching" will be (at least initially) along the same lines as ship destruction (with "cutting" lines matching where a hull splits on exploding), although there would likely be further work required on this both to allow the Vulture to do this, as well as to break down the larger sections to a size that the Reclaimer can also deal with them. There is hope, though, that the fire propogation\air handling work will allow for a similar situation to "overcharging"\"overheating" a rock while mining, so if the section being cut\munched hasn't been manually depressurised, the salvager is in for a "bad time" (Worse if the reclaimer has taken a still presurised compartment onboard for shredding).

As a side note, given the similarities between collecting the small sections of a "mined" rock and hull scraping, I wonder if once hull munching arrives there will be a way to attach a hull scraping head to a Prospector so that it can scrape the hull while more specialised ships can munch the structural parts? It would be nice (and more efficient) to have the material automatically stored (as MOLE and Prospector do) and not require manually moving every box of collected material (like Reclaimer and Vulture do).

This is not to take away from the Eva experience into a wreck in the hopes some top teir modules survived. Even better if a ai crew survived and is looking to continue the fight or spawn a new mission.
At some point we'll be able to access ships (either remotely via drone, or "in person") to remove modules - Whether they allow for "PVE" combat against AI (PVP would be expected if the crew survived) or not would likely rely on how well they can have AI operate in a zero-G environment inside a ship, which I imagine could take some time to implement.
 
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