How should CIG deal with toxic players and harassment outside of the game?

NomadicHavoc

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@Mudhawk Just for clarification, I'd be happy to drink for any nationality. I'm just saying that no nationality would want me on their team as I'm a lightweight...and they would require me to switch teams to only benefit their own.

Funny side note: The few times that I've traveled overseas, people seem to assume that my wife and I are Canadian as we are both quiet spoken and polite. Says a lot for Canadians and less so for team USA I guess. Not to overgeneralize though :o7:
 

Deroth

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@Mudhawk Just for clarification, I'd be happy to drink for any nationality. I'm just saying that no nationality would want me on their team as I'm a lightweight...and they would require me to switch teams to only benefit their own.

Funny side note: The few times that I've traveled overseas, people seem to assume that my wife and I are Canadian as we are both quiet spoken and polite. Says a lot for Canadians and less so for team USA I guess. Not to overgeneralize though :o7:
No worries there, we have a @Blind Owl, if you join the Canadian team he'll just drink your beers for you whenever others blink.
 

Shadow Reaper

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Just my personal opinion, but I'd like to think that should our great @Montoya choose to declare war on some rival org, that the combat would be performed mostly in game through wacky events in the nature of BEERFEST. Should that happen to periodically expand into Bar Citizen events, then hopefully nobody would get hurt & everybody would have a healthy LoL about things afterwards.
I think you have the right attitude, but I would caution that it’s a thoroughly bad idea to go to war with anyone who is metagaming. These guys who plot and plan to infiltrate other orgs and turn players against each other are not playing the game. They’re planning to attack not characters, but players. Honestly when you see that, your best response is run directly away. Block, ban, ignore, have nothing to do with such people. Metagaming ruins more gaming than anyone can possibly count. Look at what it did to Eve. Just horrific.

Conflicts need to be worked out in character. If you ever find yourself in conflict player to player, something horrible has taken place and it is no longer fun, no longer playtime.
 

Talonsbane

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@Montoya I'm such a lightweight these days I'd probably get forcibly delegated to the Canadian team. Canadians are super nice folk but based on the above video, they can't handle their booze as well as the rest of the worlds lushes. I must be Canadian at heart :drunk:
Nonsense, depending on who's around, we might just declare you the captain of the team. So when the other teams see you get drunk easily, they'll let their guard down thinking that we're all going to get drunk easily. At which point, they have already lost the war by believing it would be based on the opening shots fired. Cheers!

Also, from my personal experience, the best way to help a Canadian enjoy a drinking contest, is to require them to take a shot of their glorious pure maple syrup in between each of their rounds of other beverages. I've never seen a Canadian unhappy from enjoying a shot of that heavenly nectar of the gods. I welcome all Canadians to comment on their thoughts on this.
 

Bambooza

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Nonsense, depending on who's around, we might just declare you the captain of the team. So when the other teams see you get drunk easily, they'll let their guard down thinking that we're all going to get drunk easily. At which point, they have already lost the war by believing it would be based on the opening shots fired. Cheers!

Also, from my personal experience, the best way to help a Canadian enjoy a drinking contest, is to require them to take a shot of their glorious pure maple syrup in between each of their rounds of other beverages. I've never seen a Canadian unhappy from enjoying a shot of that heavenly nectar of the gods. I welcome all Canadians to comment on their thoughts on this.
Having been to both Halifax and Sydney(canadian) in jan/Feb I can safely say that they not only play a lot of hockey they can drink with the best of them. There truly is something magical about a cold foozen long night that gets the taps flowing and songs song.
 

Blind Owl

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@Montoya I'm such a lightweight these days I'd probably get forcibly delegated to the Canadian team. Canadians are super nice folk but based on the above video, they can't handle their booze as well as the rest of the worlds lushes. I must be Canadian at heart :drunk:
Heyo, everyone's welcome to be Canadian. Even hosers who think Canadians can't drink. =D haha
Funny side note: The few times that I've traveled overseas, people seem to assume that my wife and I are Canadian as we are both quiet spoken and polite. Says a lot for Canadians and less so for team USA I guess. Not to overgeneralize though
Blind Owl likes this.
No worries there, we have a @Blind Owl, if you join the Canadian team he'll just drink your beers for you whenever others blink.
What beer? :drunk::drunk:
Also, from my personal experience, the best way to help a Canadian enjoy a drinking contest, is to require them to take a shot of their glorious pure maple syrup in between each of their rounds of other beverages. I've never seen a Canadian unhappy from enjoying a shot of that heavenly nectar of the gods. I welcome all Canadians to comment on their thoughts on this
What maple syrup? :glorious:

And why is my beard sticky? (Get your minds outta the gutter you perverts)
 

Talonsbane

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What maple syrup? :glorious:

And why is my beard sticky? (Get your minds outta the gutter you perverts)
The 1st thought that came to my mind when @Blind Owl asked why his beard is sticky ...



For some reason I want to describe this as a Canadian pallet cleanser between trying out different new beers to see which they enjoy most. Cheers!
 

NaffNaffBobFace

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Nothing. What happens outside the game isn't about CIG. They have no control, that is a matter for law enforcement.
I don't deny it is law enforcements prevail however don't see how IRL actions motivated and executed with the specific desire to affect other players play isn't about the Game and should not also have game related consequences such as suspensions and bans...? What is the difference between a player doxxing another player in game, and a player doxxing another player outside of game? The same action has been committed with the same intended outcomes by the agressor.

So a little thought experiment/real world example:

A pub has a client who keeps coming every day and getting hammered and then leaves the premises and wrecks up the town on the regular. They are not still on the pubs premises but the purveyor is obligated to stop the supply of their product to that person. There is a cause and effect there although they are not still on the premisis, they are still trying to commit product related antisocial activity and climb the town's war memorial like King Kong.

if antisocial malicious behaviour is being committed outside game in real life, which only prompt and indeed link between the aggressor and victim is the game, like a pub, would CIG not be within their rights and furthermore actively desire to deny that problematic patron further service?

For clarity no I am not saying games are an intoxicant or should be licenced to run a community. It's an example, not parity.

It used to be oft said video games cause violence and sometimes still do. Where we have actual real evidence that video games do actually prompt real world aggression we're going to ignore rather than own, tackle and control that? Then it is only a matter of time before the old nonsense accusation games cause violence gets trotted out again but with actual evidence of plotting in the background on discords etc.
 
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Richard Bong

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I don't deny it is law enforcements prevail however don't see how IRL actions motivated and executed with the specific desire to affect other players play isn't about the Game and should not also have game related consequences such as suspensions and bans...? What is the difference between a player doxxing another player in game, and a player doxxing another player outside of game? The same action has been committed with the same intended outcomes by the agressor.

So a little thought experiment/real world example:

A pub has a client who keeps coming every day and getting hammered and then leaves the premises and wrecks up the town on the regular. They are not still on the pubs premises but the purveyor is obligated to stop the supply of their product to that person. There is a cause and effect there although they are not still on the premisis, they are still trying to commit product related antisocial activity and climb the town's war memorial like King Kong.

if antisocial malicious behaviour is being committed outside game in real life, which only prompt and indeed link between the aggressor and victim is the game, like a pub, would CIG not be within their rights and furthermore actively desire to deny that problematic patron further service?

For clarity no I am not saying games are an intoxicant or should be licenced to run a community. It's an example, not parity.

It used to be oft said video games cause violence and sometimes still do. Where we have actual real evidence that video games do actually prompt real world aggression we're going to ignore rather than own, tackle and control that? Then it is only a matter of time before the old nonsense accusation games cause violence gets trotted out again but with actual evidence of plotting in the background on discords etc.
Overserving someone in a bar is different than hosting a game. Even so, that is still a matter for law enforcement.

The game didn't cause the behavior, the person did. The game is just an excuse.

Are you recommending changing the TOS?
 

NaffNaffBobFace

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Overserving someone in a bar is different than hosting a game.
Tell me you've not read my whole post without telling me you've not read my while post. ;-)
For clarity no I am not saying games are an intoxicant or should be licenced to run a community. It's an example, not parity.
 

Richard Bong

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Tell me you've not read my whole post without telling me you've not read my while post. ;-)
No, I read it. The example isn't valid.
Overservice of a beverage is defined in, most, US localities, in the law. Usually creating a civil liability. Getting the establishment sued or charged due to overservice can also cause a person bared from entry.

A game has no such equivalent.

Causing issues in the bar is how you get cut off, removed and suspended or banned. Not by causing issues off the premises.

If you want a similar example, the obvious examples are casinos. A casino isn't responsible for a person losing more money than the person can afford leading to altercations and anti-social behavior. This is regardless of how often this person does this.

Like the bar, if the patron causes issues in the casino, then the casino can remove the patron, suspend admission or bar admittance to the casino.

Star Citizen defines "causing issues in the casino" in the TOS.

CIG has no responsibility for actions not taken in the game. "Doing something" with people not "in the casino" just opens up CIG to civil liability with no reasonable defense.
 

NaffNaffBobFace

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No, I read it. The example isn't valid.
Overservice of a beverage is defined in, most, US localities, in the law. Usually creating a civil liability. Getting the establishment sued or charged due to overservice can also cause a person bared from entry.

A game has no such equivalent.

Causing issues in the bar is how you get cut off, removed and suspended or banned. Not by causing issues off the premises.

If you want a similar example, the obvious examples are casinos. A casino isn't responsible for a person losing more money than the person can afford leading to altercations and anti-social behavior. This is regardless of how often this person does this.

Like the bar, if the patron causes issues in the casino, then the casino can remove the patron, suspend admission or bar admittance to the casino.

Star Citizen defines "causing issues in the casino" in the TOS.

CIG has no responsibility for actions not taken in the game. "Doing something" with people not "in the casino" just opens up CIG to civil liability with no reasonable defense.
Well I bought this on myself by using an example in the first place but there may still be value in perusing this angle.

I'm not sure even the casino is a good example as it still involves a transaction, not a competition, even the pub example involves suppressant substances not a community... So disregard them both:

How about a social group such as a sports team or other group? Would a sportsball organisation allow someone who has been proved to have been harassing the players and coach of another team outside of organised game play to be welcomed back in that group? Would they be suspended? Or banned outright if bad enough?
 
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Bambooza

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Well I bought this on myself by using an example in the first place but there may still be value in perusing this angle.

I'm not sure even the casino is a good example as it still involves a transaction, not a competition, even the pub example involves suppressant substances not a community... So disregard them both:

How about a social group such as a sports team or other group? Would a sportsball organisation allow someone who has been proved to have been harassing the players and coach of another team outside of organised game play to be welcomed back in that group? Would they be suspended? Or banned outright if bad enough?
Even in this example while better than the bar/casino one still neglects the scale and scope of a online game. Where a group of friends and team mates can exclude a fellow for their questionable behavior it's a far cry short of the dynamic at play with in a game that has millions of players across the whole world.

While it would be nice to apply peer pressure to the antics of asshats it brings a far more sinister metric to the table.

Who's moral compas do we use?

How does such a system get paid to hire enough individuals to police all the actions of the player base?

And why must cig take this upon themselves to monitor and punish individuals who's actions where deemed against a value set outside the control of cig (forum/game/event).

Honestly even the church of England had issues attempting this level of moral enforcement and they had the support of the king.

I understand the desire to right wrongs and seek justice against those whom we sympathize with. But to consolidate power into the hands of the few always brings about misery especially when it comes to issues of morality. It's why we have courts and judges and trials. It's also why the best course of action has been and will be to personally step up in the situation and call out the behavior give support in that instance to the victim and shun/humiliate the missdeeds. But there also needs to be a path forward to redemption for those shunned so that they can rejoin the group if they so choose.

So even not taking into account the scope of policing the player group with in the game owners own infrastructure to ask them to be moral cops of their player base seems near impossible. There is the added burden of what moral directives do you enforce and for whom? And you go even further down the rabbit hole you ran the gauntlet of power and its effects on individuals and how it can be used for far worse atrocities then it was originally created to cure.
 

NaffNaffBobFace

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So you fear any tool which could be implemented being used against yourself? Why?
Even in this example while better than the bar/casino one still neglects the scale and scope of a online game. Where a group of friends and team mates can exclude a fellow for their questionable behavior it's a far cry short of the dynamic at play with in a game that has millions of players across the whole world.

While it would be nice to apply peer pressure to the antics of asshats it brings a far more sinister metric to the table.

Who's moral compas do we use?

How does such a system get paid to hire enough individuals to police all the actions of the player base?

And why must cig take this upon themselves to monitor and punish individuals who's actions where deemed against a value set outside the control of cig (forum/game/event).

Honestly even the church of England had issues attempting this level of moral enforcement and they had the support of the king.

I understand the desire to right wrongs and seek justice against those whom we sympathize with. But to consolidate power into the hands of the few always brings about misery especially when it comes to issues of morality. It's why we have courts and judges and trials. It's also why the best course of action has been and will be to personally step up in the situation and call out the behavior give support in that instance to the victim and shun/humiliate the missdeeds. But there also needs to be a path forward to redemption for those shunned so that they can rejoin the group if they so choose.

So even not taking into account the scope of policing the player group with in the game owners own infrastructure to ask them to be moral cops of their player base seems near impossible. There is the added burden of what moral directives do you enforce and for whom? And you go even further down the rabbit hole you ran the gauntlet of power and its effects on individuals and how it can be used for far worse atrocities then it was originally created to cure.
Thanks for joining in the discussion, appreciate your input.

"Who's moral compas do we use?"
The one already in the game. There are clear rules set out for in game malicious behaviour such as player on player doxxing which are not tolerated. It's already there.

"How does such a system get paid to hire enough individuals to police all the actions of the player base?"
Not to solutionise but please see my previous post on pre-emptive Exposure and having an easy and anonymous whistleblowing system. Malicious individual actions I don't know if they'd be able to do much about before they happen but if evidence from behind-closed-doors planning can be gathered and submitted and a fair unmalicious way of broadcasting can be dreamed up, not that much considering there are already such things as community managers. Remember the example this thread is inspired by is fairly specific.

"And why must cig take this upon themselves to monitor and punish individuals who's actions where deemed against a value set outside the control of cig (forum/game/event)."
Again please see my previous posts. CIG does punish individuals actions they set values against - in game. It would only be extending that community guideline to where it happens in extremeis outside of the playground as in the example this thread is about. Malicious actions performed by and against people who's only contact is the game, and who's motivations are to gain advantage in the game, get punished if they do it in game by revoking access with either suspension or ban. The same actions performed outside the game seemingly do not (I have no idea if they do/don't, do you?) - Doxxing to influence the collapse an Org doesn't suddenly not be doxxing to influence the collapse an Org because it happened on 4Chan rather than Spectrum.

I understand the fear of enforcement tools themselves being used against innocents but it doesn't take a lot of imagination to see that should not be much of an issue: If a new account without a game package and zero spend in the game is making false accusations, treat it with a light touch with no punishments until clear evidence is provided. If it's a backer who have been with the project from 2012 with $3k donated it's probably more likely to be legit and can swing in a little heavier. Add to that conditions such as if someone makes an accusation their account gets suspended while investigation is being made, or if it is found to be a false accusation the account making it is suspended, or make it a system you have to make a token payment via a registered bank card to make removing any anonymity for someone making a report and it's not such a vulnerable system.

Think of all CIG has innovated to make all the technical magic happen bringing the dream of SC to reality... would they really shy away from the challenge of making real innovative improvements to managing the impact of some of the more malicious members of the community too? I'd hope not but really only time will tell.
 
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NaffNaffBobFace

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So is spitting on someone in real life covered under the tos?
Harassment is, yes.

"Harass, threaten, or direct inappropriate activity at any user of RSI Services or any employee, partner, or contractor of RSI and its affiliates. This includes, for example, making personal attacks or threats of physical violence, repeated ‘spamming’ or sending of unwanted messages, discriminatory statements, doxxing, swatting, cyberbullying, and stalking. "


As I said. It's there already you don't need a consultation for what guidelines need to be drawn up, and everyone with game access has ticked the box to agree to this set of morals already. You, me, them, everybody. Everybody.
 
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