How should CIG deal with toxic players and harassment outside of the game?

Talonsbane

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Because the asshole spit on her AT an event hosted by CIG, CIG at the very least, should have him banned for life, all of his accounts erased forever & them use him as an example publicly to make it clear that those doing things like this will not be tolerated & will lose everything that CIG has any say over. Then if this spitting jerk gets caught making any further accounts, those get deleted immediately as well. Obviously, CIG will need to make sure that whatever they do will be within their legal rights to do before they do anything, they must do something or they will allow these assholes to ruin the community of SC before the game is even finished.
 

Talonsbane

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Put their accounts in Klescher with a lifetime sentence and a 1/4 sized o2 tank so they cant escape.
CIG should create a prison in game where it is impossible to escape from & the punishment time only counts while they are logged into that character on that account. Since most of these sorts of vermin have far more than just a starter pack funded into the game, making them effectively start over would be the next best thing to banning them for life.
 

Lorddarthvik

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Oh no, my fee fees...

Giving a blank slate to private companies to do as they please with their customers because those customers said or done something OUTSIDE of the companies purview leads to nothing but injustice and corruption. This has been proven time and time again. They already have way too much power over our lives, they should not be allowed more.

That said, next time this "thing" (cos that spitter aint deserves to be called a human) writes a meany word in game chat or on spectrum or anywhere on CiG property, then they technically Can permaban his ass cos of ToS and so on... I'm sure no one would mind it.
 

Deroth

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As @Lorddarthvik pointed out, we should be careful of hoping for CIG to take actions that cross over into the realm of corporate overreach as this could lead undesirable consequences.
However, in the short-term I would think that CIG should be able to blacklist this individual from attending any future in-person events, then for the long-term consult with their attorneys on measures they can legally take to combat systematic toxic behavior from players.
 

ColdDog

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CIG will not do anything until they have to. The organizational leaders need to address bad actors like Avenger did. If people act this way, there should be consequences. No organization should ever work with an organization that targets and actively tries to hurt people outside the game. Outside-game behavior needs to be reported to the authorities (Federal, State, and Local) with supporting documentation. Once these bad actors get on the Fed's radar, their time is limited online and everywhere else - soon everything they do will be monitored. I guarantee LR has many eyes on it, and so does Star Citizen for that fact. Govt is always looking for people in Discord, etc.; even a tiny statement could be reported in or out of context.

So, getting Congress to make laws more stringent is needed for the US, Canada, and EU - that is obvious with all the online suicides, doxxing, etc. Until people start going to jail, this problem will persist.

I guarantee many people take these games way beyond rationality and think this game is their life, leaving the issue of no boundaries between the game and real life. We hear it all the time in Discord. Some people think this is a real-life military op. No, it's a fricken video game, period. It's not in an army op, it's not real life, and if you die in the game - which I always do, you respawn, claim your ship, and go about your day and have fun.

Summary:
Some people will be the worst they can be without consequences.
Some people can't distinguish right and wrong.
Some people can't distinguish between fiction and nonfiction
Some people want to cause misery because they can.
Some people want to hurt people because they can, especially significantly weaker people.
Targeting people with mental, life, and financial problems is evil and wrong at any level.

LR did all this; they should be ashamed and banned from the Star Citizen community.

If Test doesn't set the tone, no one else will.
 

NaffNaffBobFace

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Thank you, Glorious Leader!

I have been thinking about this for a few days now, so just thinking some thoughts out loud as I don't think I've got to the end of the road in my pondering, but one must always start somewhere and you've caught me on a night I am afflicted with insomnia so here goes...

For the most part the only reason certain malicious groups of people and certain targets come in to each others sphere of contact is the game. If there were no game, victims would not be known to perpetrators and groups of perps would likely have never met in the first place. The multiplayer games existence draws all these elements together and provides a setting for conflict in game which it appears can spill out in to external settings such as other media and In Real Life too... Ask ourselves, if it were just a single-player game would there be the same type of community, the same type of conflict, the same type of spill over...? Probably not. A setting has been set. There is responsibility not to ignore, not to tolerate, malicious IRL actions carried out in the name of the game, for the desire for in game advantage is the driver of that misconduct out there just as it is inside the game where it is punished.

With great following there is great responsibility to not lead followers in to harm. This includes not encouraging them to do certain things... this includes not tolerating certain things if and when certain elements of the community go do them... the community managers may not have any controls over conduct outside the game but if there are no in game repercussions for what is inflicted on victims by perps outside the game, that outside route risks becoming the path of least resistance where any badness done in game is punished but anything outside of the game is ignored and becomes the defacto place to execute such malicious actions, where disruption and suffering driven by a desire to have an in game advantage can be committed with no game consequences. It risks IRL actions escalating through stages of Cyber Bullying, In Person Bullying, Harassment, Wider Social Engineering of community against an individual, Doxx, Swatting, provocation and encouragement of personal harm and even worse.

So what actually can be done? This kind of 'Macrogame' outside the controls of the game universe tomfoolery isn't unique to SC, stalking and swatting happens. As well as all the things which can be done for in-game transgression being applied for external game instances which is a minimum, there is another important step which can be taken:

Consider some of the evidence from the latest drama. It includes IRL malicious info gathering, actual doxxing, and orchestrated planning of deepfake manufacture and more with intent to disrupt private home life as well as in game life to levels considered to be at risk of provoking physical harm. But also consider the additional evidence which was the video itself - the reaction and [CONCERN] of the perps of things they planned and did bought into the light of day, pulled out of the shadows of private discords, and how now the curtain has been pulled back that it is unlikely it is to continue happening by this group at least...

With that evidence in mind, I think one of the most effective steps in tackling this issue is actually the one that Avenger_One has taken: Exposure - by revealing plans they can no longer happen, leading to active prevention rather than post-event reaction.

Shine a light on it, expose it and refuse to tolerate malicious action and planning of malicious action. Yes there will be Org battles in game but that's in game and part of the game. Plans and tactics for PvP will be part of the game, inside the game, and be no doubt encouraged and probably even relevant resources provided like Command ships to help make sure it stays where, and what, it should be. But where malicious, IRL data gathering, planned orchestrated harassment, intent to disrupt and harm IRL life... No. That cannot be tolerated.

Perhaps if there was a representative (or spai) in every Org ready and willing to leak any such malicious plans or activity, it would most likely nip it in the bud before it can bloom into the ugly black flower of harmful action?

If not specific individuals, maybe perhaps a culture which empowers every backer to be a whistleblower could work for the most part too - Avenger_One themself state they got their info from a LR org member disgusted by what they saw... huge respect to whoever that was, they are the (rightly anonymous) unsung hero of the story... If every single one of us was encouraged, allowed and had an easy anonymous way of reporting it to CIG or whoever, which could then be exposed in an controlled community wide manner and defused then perhaps that too could pour cold water on things before they get to the point of blowing up like this?
 
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FerethTheFox

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To those who have not watched the original video. LR has been doxing people who they don't like, making fake accounts to ruin their credibility, and purposefully bullying people to the edge (You know what I mean).

Edit: Yes LR leadership is very aware of what their members are doing, and actually congratulate them when they do these things.
 

CRISS9000

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the term "harassment" needs to have a good definition first. I know it's complex, but it needs to be clear and non-abuseable.

keep in mind that CIG have had false positives in the past for harassment and some players were falsely accused and received warnings for doing nothing that was wrong.
 

ColdDog

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keep in mind that CIG have had false positives in the past for harassment and some players were falsely accused and received warnings for doing nothing that was wrong.
False positive in saving a life... people commit suicide every day because of this activity. So what, you save a life, just one, It is a job well done for those willing to do it.
 
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Deroth

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False positive in saving a life... people commit suicide every day because of this activity. So what, you save a life, just one, It is a job well done for those willing to do it.
False positives can also destroy a life and if CIG doesn't take measures to address false positives then it harms their credibility.
In other MMOs I've been accused of harassment to the developers when I confronted them for making racist (and far worse) comments in those games' equivalent of Global. I received suspensions and other punishments that ruined my reputation and experience with those games, leading to me leaving those games.
In the work place I have been accused of harassment by people I shared an office with that were actually harassing me (they wanted to drive me out of my office so a friend of theirs could be moved into it), HR had started the process to officially write me up (which would've come with other punishments.) Fortunately I was able to convince HR to do a thorough investigation, however the other two only received a verbal warning for their actions and it took me a couple years to repair my reputation in the workplace as HR refused to make their findings 'public'.
It also isn't hard to find reports of people losing their job, being forced out of their home, having their reputation destroyed, and so forth due to public false accusations of harassment.
In the news recently there was even a young boy accused of racism over a picture taken from a side angle without context, the public accuser may now be facing a lawsuit.
Due to 'false positives' not being harmless much of US law revolves around protecting people from false accusations (and people still get wrongly convicted, taking years, and a lot of money to get addressed, if it even does get addressed within their lifetime.)
 

FZD

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I'm with @Lorddarthvik on this one.

When it's something outside of any platform or event hosted by CIG: nothing. CIG is not an international police force. If the person misbehaving has a Star Citizen T-shirt or something that establishes a link to CIG, then state you do not condone bad behavior. But since it's outside of space controlled by CIG, CIG should not dish out any extrajudicial punishments. Could even land CIG to legal trouble, as bans etc. are based on the contract, which doesn't govern behavior outside of CIG space.

If it's visible from a CIG hosted event, depending on the country bouncers/stewards/security may be able to enforce peace in the immediate vicinity of the place they've been contracted to work at. In such case, just act according to the law, probably detain the guy and call the cops. (I've worked event security on a few occasions, this was cowered in the mandatory training when getting a license to do such work. But again, depends on the country.)
 
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Mudhawk

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There is an old saying.
-Homo homini lupus.-
Man is a wolf to man.
I personally find it insulting.
Insulting for wolves that is.
They are pretty nice and social creatures after all. Not to a Kariboo maybe but to their own kind.
Can't say that about humans in general.
I bet our forebearers, long long ago, sat on their trees and insulted the folks of the other trees.
The ones on the other branches too come to think of it.
And once they did master the fire they had nothing better to do than burn the other trees down.
And then the other branches.
And so we had to learn how to walk on two legs.
Because it's much safer this way in a treeless savannah with no trees to climb for a lookout.
So yeah, I think burning others without regard for the damages we cause, to them, to the enviroment and ultimately to ourselves, is a pretty human thing.
I'm not saying that it's okay. Or that it's our heritage. Or that we should ignore that kind of conduct.
I'm saying it to point out that games, the internet, social-media and even the annual meeting of grandma's knitting circle, are simply the stage of an ancient sh*tshow.
The frustrating thing is that I'm fully aware of the part of me that is an axxhoxx like that.
Well i found that part of me and I think I do a decent job at keeping it in check.
So do you guys it seems, at least considering the sides of your personallity you show in this forum.
But still, listen to that dark part of your soul musing about what it could all get away with in the dark unknows of the internets.
Or behind the back of a trusing neigbour maybe?
Take that and multiply it with the stupidity of young guys and girls.
If you can't remember things from so long ago do not frett, our adult stupidity is solid enough.
End result is always a lot of burnt turf, hurt people and closed doors.
And that's the most positive possible future.
A worse result is always possible.
On a instinctive level we know all that which is why society works a such.
Get caught: face consequence.
It does not have to be the law.
But there HAS to be consequences.
So to actually answer the question about:
How should CIG deal with toxic players and harassment outside of the game?
(Took me long enough, eh?)
Formulate consequences, and then enforce them.
What kind of consequences you ask?
If I had a choice, I'd pick a err... Hazardous-Material-Server.
Normal people go to normal servers.
Whenever a certified (through conduct in- OR outside of the game) @h0le$$ log in then they go to the Hades-Alpha Servers.
They can play the full game in a universe full of likeminded people. (How nice is that?)
No breach of contract even.
Let them invite their friends to go there too so no one can complain about that either. (Though yeah, their friends can't invite them. But on the next login those friends will be on the same server. So there...)
Just one thing my beloved deliquents...
don't drop your soap in the shower, ok?




 

Raven_King

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Bullying behavior and physical or emotional abuse is covered to some extent by most of our national law systems. Harassing or assaulting someone is illegal (as well as immoral). The main challenge seems to be identifying the suspected perpetrator, and presenting enough evidence to get the police to act. It is then the law enforcement agency's job (I don't know the US system too well, maybe a state attorney? Or simply the police?) to decide what action to take, within the law and with proper authority to do it. Outside the game, CIG have no business trying to intervene, much as they might want to. Organizations who host the discussions about this bullying, and organizations like CIG who host the game, can assist by a.) providing law enforcement evidence of the bullying and of it being discussed, and by identifying to law enforcement (NOT the general public) the real people behind the usernames.

Additionally, CIG has terms of use for players. Where those have been violated by bullying/anti-social behavior, CIG must investigate and enforce appropriate in-game sanctions against players who fail to follow the general player terms of use. I don't think that means special game conditions, I think penalties for breaking terms of use should be specified right there in the terms of use (at least in general terms), but temporary or permanent bans for the individuals involved (not [edit:] just [/edit] their existing accounts - any alts or new ones too) would be a start. Ban them from the game, ban them from Spectrum.

Last, if those players are in an org, investigate the org leader and org moderator's involvement in the bullying. I don't know if there are additional terms of use for org leaders and officers, but if not perhaps there should be? Did the org leadership know bullying which crosses the line of legality was happening, or being planned or discussed? Did they encourage it, enable it, or remain inactive when they or the mods acting on their behalf should have prevented it by moderating posts or suspending/expelling org members? If so, they deserve in-game sanction too.

So, agreed, for the parts of this dreadful behavior that happened outside of CIG property, that's for the police. CIG may be able to help provide some evidence to the police and should if they can. Whoever hosted the discord/chat room/message board/whatever-it-was can and should do exactly the same, or face legal action too.
 
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ColdDog

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Did they encourage it, enable it, or remain inactive when they or the mods acting on their behalf should have prevented it by moderating posts or suspending/expelling org members? If so, they deserve in-game sanction too.
The answer is yes. It's in the video. That is why this is so hard - pinning responsibility on people in CIG is hard (corp leaders, not CIG people)
 
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Cugino83

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I just watch the A1 video and the GloriusLeader's one... I think this matter is a seriut topic.
CIG is a game company and should take adeguate action on misbehevior of its player/baker, so harassing to the level LR's members are doing is unacceptable... but those action should be limited to the game context.
On the other hand this is not a case of cheeting in a game, those action are real life treat and should be deal from legal authorities to witch CIG should provide full support in the form of logs and such.
BTW, on the A! video he mentioned a guys who suicide do to depression.... considering the action of LR members that too could be a consequence of their action (my pure speculation) and that is very heavy accusation with very serious repercussion.

CIG should start to implement and use the "iron first" on these kind of situation because let them run will, in the long rum, harm the entire game and community: SC is already sold as a "player ready" game, the player base is growing constantly and is time to start thinking on community governance for real before is too late and all the good players run away for the project due to the toxing environment: already spectrum is a pile of shit, not letting the game itself running low should be a priority.
 

Deroth

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Cyber bullying/harassment can be exceedingly difficult to deal with through the justice system, as an example look at the case of Conrad Roy: Despite the mountain of evidence a conviction against his girlfriend wasn't a sure thing and she ultimately served less than an year for it, and this was a situation where they lived near each other.
Now think about when the people involved are in different Counties, States, or Countries, all with different laws and political relationships.

In the situation with the spitting incident it was mentioned that she isn't pressing charges, which honestly doesn't surprise me if both of them don't live in that area. The thought of having to deal with travel, court, attorney fees, and everything else that goes along with that for someone you never expected to see in person in the first place can be very overwhelming to just think about.

So this leads us back to: What can CIG due to protect their player base?
I would think for the spitting incident they should be able to blacklist his personage (as opposed to his accounts) from attending any future in-person events hosted by CIG, as these are 'private events' they're within their rights to refuse admission to those they've notified are not welcome. It doesn't matter that it didn't happen inside the convention, it happened because of the convention, if it wasn't for them both being there they wouldn't have ran into each other. Many businesses have banned/blacklisted people from their facilities or services due to similar circumstances, just because they walked outside doesn't mean CIG is barred from doing anything about someone that used one of their events to escalate their dangerous behavior.

Similarly, LR's reactions of 'those were private conversations' should take a look at conspiracy laws and convictions, a 'private' conversation among associates is not the same thing as attorney-client privilege. If it is confirmed this has become a cultural issue within that Org that includes the leadership, and SC was fully released, seeing something like the Org being disbanded and those confirmed to be involved being flagged within the game system from being able to take any types of leadership positions in other Orgs. Sure, they may still have 'leadership' outside the game, but once the full Org system is implemented in game, a 'leader' being unable to actually use any Org Leadership game mechanics would cripple their ability to influence the culture of the Org.
As for what can be done now, with the current game mechanics available? I don't know, maybe suspensions proportional to their level of involvement?
 
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