Hunting with the Polaris

[Shadow Reaper]

I’ve been running numbers in both calculators, trying to determine what is the best way to fight and fight with the Polaris and made some interesting finds I want to share.

A Polaris, hunting another Polaris is a good measure in the calculators since the Polaris figures are more reliable than the Idris, and Void Bomber figures don’t exist yet. So this is the test case. Void Bombers reportedly have only S2 sensors. They should be vastly easier prey than the Polaris.

EM and IR are about 16k each, which is surprisingly low. In NAV mode, EM detects first, even before cross section; which is normal, but unexpected for such a large ship. This suggests active pinging is not a deterrent to Polaris attackers. Armor provides -20% on all three sensors, and you may be able to swap this out with Void Armor for -40%, which would be key but would likely take half your hull value.

Switching energy to ballistic weapons does not provide enough benefit in damage or stealth to be useful. Switching off guns drops your EM about 20%. Switching off your shields drops your EM to about 2k, which is insanely low. The shield takes 3m13s to charge.

With shields and weapons off, detection range of a Firebird tracking a Polaris is 20km, while a Polaris will not detect the Firebird until about 3km.

In NAV mode, Polaris will detect another Polaris with shields and weapons powered at 24km. Your torps range is 30km. That’s fir S9. S10 could be 50km.

So the sweet spot for attacking unseen is with a spotter, “stealth recon” if you prefer, at between 24-30km range. This is where you can detect without being detected if you are sharing sensors with your spotter.

We don’t know the stats for S10 torps yet, but we should expect them to take a full minute from locking on to striking the target. Locking and arming times are torp specs. They can’t be changed. You can substantially reduce time to target by switching off shields and approaching closer than 24km. We don’t know exactly how close you can get, but time to target reduces by 2s/km, so if you get 10km closer, you take 1/3 off your time to target. Effectiveness at suppressing an attack is probably a quadratic function over time, so looks like a parabola.

What this means is your success to attack is tied most heavily to getting close to the target. You will be strongly tempted to shut down your shields, knowing that if you do not succeed, you’ll probably need to quantum jump away or get pasted with your shields down.

Anyway, that’s what it looks like so far, and exactly as suspected. The Polaris is intended to emulate the submarine combat of WWII. The only surprises with the Polaris so far have been the relatively low signatures, and the SCM of 210. CIG delivered the speed they promised.

There is a bewildering variety of S3, 4, 5, and 6 guns, and S2, 3 and 10 missiles and torps. There is probably value in separating these as short (<5km) medium (5-10km) and long (10-30km) range, and deciding which S2 missiles to use based upon whether you want more short or medium range. We might precise this definition of medium and long range once we have ranges for Vanduul S10 weapons.

In general, if the Polaris has a stealth switch like most ships, this will reduce the IR sig by about 25% while raising the EM sig about 10%. If you have your shields off, and especially if you opted for 40% signature reduction at the cost of your armor, flipping that switch will allow you to get very close to most targets. If the tales are true that Void Bombers have only S2 sensors, you will be able to get absurdly close to them without being detected, but note, they wear 3 S10 weapons. They will kill you if you do not kill them first.

So kill them first. All Vanduul deserve to die, Die, DIE!

Finally, you should ignore the HP value of the Polaris in the spviewer. It often lists ridiculous figures. It lists the Polaris as 100M. It is more likely between 2-4M. The risks you can take with one Polaris against another depend entirely whether it will go down with a single quad torp shot. Odds are though, that if you get the first strike with all four torps, you will be able to finish it off before it can recover. It really matters how successful it is in shooting down your torps. This also means that a Polaris’ best defense against another Polaris is probably to quantum away immediately, and seek your opponent on your own terms rather than fight him on his terms. It’s probably not wise to risk the ship on shooting down torps unless you have real PCs in the turrets, waiting because you chose the battle.

Probably, the Polaris has 2-4M hull, the Void Bomber ~1M, and the Idris 22M. Probably S10 torps will be about 1M@. You are not going to be killing many frigates with a lone Polaris and in fact, it may be best not to try. Rather, these figures suggest that to kill an Idris, best is probably to tear off its armor at a specific point with lasers, torps and S10 weapons, and then cripple it with ballistics aimed specifically at its vulnerable internal components like the reactor. What happens in Xenothreat probably does not match the expected 22M hull figure.

It looks like CIG may have designed the Polaris specifically to kill a pair of Void Bombers with a single strike, and VBs do fly in pairs. In summation, daring Polaris Captains may practice the method of taking a quad torp shot from about 15km with shields down, and immediately quantum jumping to safety while their spotter records the results. Shooting from 30km is probably not going to be effective.

 

[NomadicHavoc]

I love listening to you talk about stealth mechanics and how to best utilize them! Really enjoy the idea of high risk vs high reward.

During last years citizencon they talked about infantry being able to use deep vs shallow scans to reveal more or less information about their environment, but at the added risk of giving the enemy a more vs less bead on your location. Surely, this exists or will exist for ships as well?

This would be a nice counter to the stealth mechanics described above if you’re providing security for a large mining operation for example. Your ship could have shields and weapons fully charged as you’re in a loud environment anyways and just send out an occasional deep scan to help counter any stealth mechanics being used to do a sneak attack.

Reminds me of chumming the waters to invite the sharks, but once they take the bait and feel the hook set into their gums, having great satisfaction seeing them try to scurry away like cockroaches.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

I love listening to you talk about stealth mechanics and how to best utilize them!

I agree with that, their knowledge and enthusiasm for the subject is superb

 

[Ayeteeone]

I love listening to you talk about stealth mechanics and how to best utilize them! Really enjoy the idea of high risk vs high reward.

During last years citizencon they talked about infantry being able to use deep vs shallow scans to reveal more or less information about their environment, but at the added risk of giving the enemy a more vs less bead on your location. Surely, this exists or will exist for ships as well?

This would be a nice counter to the stealth mechanics described above if you’re providing security for a large mining operation for example. Your ship could have shields and weapons fully charged as you’re in a loud environment anyways and just send out an occasional deep scan to help counter any stealth mechanics being used to do a sneak attack.

Reminds me of chumming the waters to invite the sharks, but once they take the bait and feel the hook set into their gums, having great satisfaction seeing them try to scurry away like cockroaches.

Theorycrafting is fun :) @Shadow Reaper does a lot of it, and while the information we have to work with for ships like the Polaris is very incomplete, painting scenarios is a good way to learn the game systems.

Latest information on Scanning has three elements:
a) Completely passive, good out to maybe 100km
b) Active Ping, good out to maybe 50,000km. To answer your question, yes there is a goal to be able to adjust this power level. It's probably the same code used for the FPS scan.
c) Long Range scan, which has not been publicly defined. A couple of years back Todd Papy said they were considering having it work like a long-exposure photo, where you open an aperture and collect data on a section of the sky over time. This ability also seems to be chassis dependent, as it was stated in the MSR Q&A that it was only good for 'local' scanning.

Once all these systems are in play 'AS INTENDED' the idea of stealthing around in a capitol ship might be as absurd as it sounds. OR, we may have enough control of the ship to enable a niche style of gameplay with really useful tactical applications. And who doesn't like the Stealth Archer approach in video games LOL.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

While it is all theory crafting, some of the theory is calculated by actual detection distance calculator. The numbers come from spviewer, not me. In fact, it is obviously using a very different equation for SCM than what was given us years ago. I’d love to know what the equation is and where it comes from. Take special note, detection ranges in NAV mode are several times higher than in SCM. This defines the gameplay.

I think we’re entitled to presume certain things are true. The calculator shows a Reclaimer can be detected at twice the distance as a Polaris, and the signature values for the Polaris are surprisingly low. In both calculators, the critical stealth signature that can’t be reduced by powering down shields and weapons— the IR—is so low that it’s lower than the Conny, MSR and 400i. That is really low for a cap ship.

So it seems CIG’s intention is to make the Polaris fast and quiet. It appears will take twice the beating than the Void Bomber but only about 1/5 the sturdiness of an Idris. The shield is 750kHP, but the hull is 2-4MHP. So it is a sometimes acceptable risk to turn the shield off, just as with all stealth applications. In this instance though, you are not going to evade, turn on the shield and enter a knife fight. The shield takes 3 1/2 minutes to charge. For you to charge it you’d first need to quantum away. (The spool is 7s, and cooldown is 8.7, so we’re only talking about 16s between Q jumps. That seems really good. I will not be surprised if CIG triples the cooldown to make it more awkward, jumping around the battlefield.)

Sounds like expertly designed gameplay. I really like all their intentions thus far with the Polaris (save they took away the Holoviewer. May the flees of a thousand camels infest their armpits.) If you want to hunt and kill front line Vanduul cap ships, this platform was designed just for you.

For us here at TEST, we also have the distinct advantage that we could field several Polaris hunting as a group, and so might even be able to tip the balance of power by taking on the mighty Vanduul Marauder, which is their destroyer opposite the Javelin class. If we can do this effectively, we can take whole systems back from the Vanduul and write a new story for Orion.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

* Nomad specifically called out active pinging and Radar Cross Section (RCS). The calculator is not much help here and refuses to give automated calculations because RCS changes with ship orientation.

That said, if you manually input an RCS figure the calculator will use it. It’s a linear relation without coefficient, which means there’s no multiplier. OTOH, the EM and IR calculations apply a 1.5X coefficient (for cap class) when in NAV mode. That’s why you have a 24km detection range from a 16k signature. It is that 1.5X coefficient that makes the EM NAV signature dominate. If the target being detected has shield and weapons off, its EM is insignificant and sensors will first pick up IR. If it is decoupled and drifting with engines off, its IR will likewise descent below 16k signature and 24k detection. Erkul does not account for reduced IR when we turn off engines, but we observe this during gameplay.

So we need the RCS of the Polaris to get an answer, but it is unlikely to exceed the EM or IR detection range values because RCS has no coefficient. (Polaris frontal RCS is only about 2,870, then subtract 20% armor reduction for about 2200?). You can observe this by putting arbitrary values for RCS into the detection calculator. That’s why I italicized that pinging is not a deterrent for a Polaris on the hunt. RCS apparently has no coefficient.

Also keep in mind that while NPC cap ships will probably ping constantly, pinging is a mini-game PCs seldom practice. Since it gives away position, and requires a player endlessly repeating the same action, you’re not going to face active radar very often.

So the general rule is, drop your EM by switching off systems; boost, kill engines, and drift to drop IR; and point your nose at the target to reduce RCS.

BTW, because IR dominates in SCM, you should always shut off your retros and learn to fly without them except when landing, and except unless you fly a ship with reduced retro IR values—stealth ships like the Sabre, Terrapin, etc. Never leave your 300 series retros on in combat. They make missile IR tracking too easy. Retros produce about twice the IR of maneuvering thrusters, so shutting down 2 of them reduces signature as if you shut down 4 maneuvering thrusters. And you know, using retros in a dogfight is a common way to die. You need to maintain your speed as best you can. You don’t actually need them except to park, so unless you’re flying a stealth bird you should shut them off. And truthfully, decoupling, flipping your ship and using the mains to park is the sign of a savvy pilot. I can’t wait to see a Polaris pilot do this. Fastest way to land. Too cool.

There have been YouTube tutorials on drop ship landing for years. Come in fast, descending, decoupled with your target in view. Switch to outside camera and rotate yaw 180*. Burn mains to stop directly above the target and descend the last couple meters. Divide your speed by your change in speed with afterburners to get the time needed to scrub off all horizontal velocity with your mains. Since max speed and max acceleration don’t change, you can practice this until you’re a AAA drop ship pilot.

So Polaris descending with 900m/s In NAV mode decoupled will flip in 180*/24*/s=7.5s, and then go from 900 to 0 m/s with an afterburner burn of 2.25s. 10 seconds for a complete landing cycle. Very cool.

Using mains to dump horizontal velocity is minimum time to target—just what drop ship pilots should practice. Needs no retros.

Now if you’re really crazy (and I am), you could practice flying the Polaris decoupled and backwards in NAV at 900m/s, over huge distances, straifing down and blasting your afterburners for 2.25s to suddenly stop and touch down. The real men know. . .

“Quick! Hold my beer!”

 

[GarikDuvall]

I’ve been running numbers in both calculators...

I love it when you talk dirty to us. lol

But seriously, I'm a Shadow Reaper fanboy, and love your posts breaking down numbers especially when it comes to stealth mechanics, as well as damage optimization/mitigation.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

I was recently considering what it appears the Guardian is all about. Extra cooling implies at least mild stealth. It’s small. It’s got a bed. So technically, one could add an arbitrary number of these to the Polaris as scout ships and because of the bed, and the ability to refuel in the Polaris hanger, you could support virtually any size fleet of Guardians, within reason. Logistics might make you crazy over a dozen, but the number doesn’t even need to be a set value. It could change over time as players enter and exit a combat theater.

What I’m trying to do here is replace the common notion of supporting a single ship in the hanger, with a handful of ships serviced by the hanger. For this the ships need four things:

1) Fit in the hanger. The Vanguard do not fit.
2) Have a bed. Sabres have no bed.
3) Have enough scan/stealth to see without being seen.
4) Have enough firepower to reliably knock out fighters attacking the Polaris’ torps.

So maybe this solves the conundrum I have had forever of supporting an entire wing of stealth recon spotters off the Polaris. I’ve imagined for ages, fighters flying out radially, like spotters in WWII scanning the oceans for targets. This maybe can be that.

I can imagine an officer hovering over the Holoviewer, who’s sole responsibility is to organize constant handling of this Guardian Wing, seeing they are regularly refueled, tasked various missions, and generally keeping eyes out for the Polaris, and the hanger constantly busy, servicing ships, or taking on missiles, torps and fuel from visiting StarGs.

I don’t know if the Guardian is stealthy enough to see without being seen, but it’s certainly worth finding out. The spviewer implies it will see large targets well before being seen, and Vanduul fighters run notoriously hot. They don’t care about stealth.

Yeah, I liked the Firebird for recon, and it’s certainly stealthier, but it doesn’t have a bed, and you really can’t just pile ‘em on. Pilots need to sleep. If you choose the Firebird, you’re stuck with just 1 Scout.

Though less than the Firebird, for most targets the Guardian’s 4S3 missiles are enough. This includes fighters attacking the Polaris’ torps. In compensation for less speed, stealth and missile strength of the Guardian compared to the Firebird, we note the Guardian should sport S2 sensors—a huge advantage for its primary search role.

It’s all bonus if two Guardians fit in the hanger at once. You cannot do that with a Firebird. That’s a firm maybe, though it appears a Guardian and a Terrapin will fit both at once, or two Terrapin. So you have at least partial twin handling of ships in that little Polaris hanger bay. Picture ships leaving and landing on one side of the bay while crews scramble to refuel and refit on the other side. Twin handling would greatly speed along service.

This is a new solution that did not exist before the Guardian, since the Vanguard are too large for the hanger, as are the 300 series, etc. I’m pretty sure no other fighter can do this. A Terrapin can do this, but they can’t defend the Polaris torps from Vanduul fighters. A Polaris Wing Commander can incorporate Turtles for listening posts and Med Turtles for rescue missions, but the Guardian may be the stand out choice for Spotter and Torp Shepherd, aka “Scout”.

One especially nice thing about this kind of group design is the fighter pilots can provide their own ships and stay with their ship. They can be trained by a group and ship off to another Polaris where they’re more needed. It’s a very amorphous structure albeit still within the confines of Captains orders. It’s flexible and easy to manage, as there isn’t much difference between 5-12 such spotters.

 

[Bambooza]

I was recently considering what it appears the Guardian is all about. Extra cooling implies at least mild stealth. It’s small. It’s got a bed. So technically, one could add an arbitrary number of these to the Polaris as scout ships and because of the bed, and the ability to refuel in the Polaris hanger, you could support virtually any size fleet of Guardians, within reason. Logistics might make you crazy over a dozen, but the number doesn’t even need to be a set value. It could change over time as players enter and exit a combat theater.

So maybe this solves the conundrum I have had forever of supporting an entire wing of stealth recon spotters off the Polaris. I’ve imagined for ages, fighters flying out radially, like spotters in WWII scanning the oceans for targets. This maybe can be that.

I can imagine an officer on the bridge who’s sole responsibility is to organize constant handling of this Guardian Wing, seeing they are regularly refueled, tasked various missions, and generally keeping eyes out for the Polaris, and the hanger constantly busy. Need an officer there too.

I don’t know if the Guardian is stealthy enough to see without being seen, but it’s certainly worth finding out. The spviewer implies it will see large targets well before being seen.

Yeah I liked the Firebird for recon, and it’s certainly stealthier, but it doesn’t have a bed, and you really can’t just pile ‘em on. Pilots need to sleep.

For most targets, the Guardian’s 4S3 missiles are enough. This includes fighters attacking the Polaris’ torps. So no deficit there. And it’s all bonus if two Guardians fit in the hanger at once. That’s a firm maybe, though it appears a Guardian and a Terrapin will fit both at once, or two Terrapin. So you have at least partial twin handling of ships in that little Polaris hanger bay.

This is a new solution that did not exist before the Guardian, since the Vanguard are too large for the hanger, as are the 300 series, etc. I’m pretty sure no other fighter can do this. A Terrapin can do this, but they can’t defend the Polaris torps from Vanduul fighters. A Polaris Wing Commander can incorporate Turtles for listening posts and Med Turtles for rescue missions, but the Guardian may be the stand out choice for spotter and Torp Shepherd.

One especially nice thing about this kind of group design is the fighter pilots can provide their own ships and stay with their ship. They can be trained by a group and ship off to another Polaris where they’re more needed. It’s a very amorphous structure albeit still within the confines of Captains orders. It’s flexible and easy to manage, as there isn’t much difference between 5-12 such spotters.

So much joy coming so very soon

 

[Shadow Reaper]

So here are the deck plans. I’m doing this on my phone so cannot see with the precision you may have what’s going on. However, based upon the walkthrough, it sounds like there are 12 beds total. There are 5 manned turrets, 3 seated positions on the bridge, 2 standing positions by the holoviewer, and 2 standing engineering positions astern. 2 of the turrets are remote, so they’re seated just behind the pilot. 12 positions total and 12 beds. No marines. No NPCs.

I’m concerned if this is all we got, because it does not seem enough to competently run this ship. 3 of the 4 seated positions are gunners and the last is the pilot, so there’s no comms position. There are no security personnel. There isn’t room for NPC engineers, nor NPCs of any type. We got 576 cargo instead of the 200 the ship originally called for, and truly I think CIG short changed the ship half dozen or more NPC bunks. What do you think? How many bunks do you count? Note there are 12 escape pods.