Let's talk C1
- Thread starter Zookajoe
- Start date
Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
I know I’m on this subject too often, but as no one has mentioned it, I would point out if you’re going to compare metrics across a single class, you do need to consider the stealth and speed qualities. For hauling cargo, stealth is more important that firepower, hull and shielding. When you’re hauling the last thing you want is a fight, and better guns can woo you in the wrong direction. The Lancers are all very cold running ships. The C1 runs unusually hot. It’s easy to see and to target, especially with missiles. I for one would prefer the Lancer Max for that class of hauler. The benefits of seeing without being seen over offensive and defensive capability are especially important when best case is don’t get in a fight. After stealth is speed and the C1 is fast, but not fast enough to outrun the kinds of ship that would attack it.
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What is stealth based off of? IR or EM? C1 has less than half the EM of a Max, and less than twice the IR. Of the two, the C1 is slightly more stealthy if going with IR and EM combined.
Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
Stealth is based off the higher of EM and IR. There’s no way to equip the C1’s IR below 12k because of inadequate cooling. When you flip the stealth switch you reduce IR for greater EM, so probably C1 drivers ought to just leave it on if they’re trying to run quiet, but ships are still gonna eyeball you at 10k.
You might say “that’s not so bad” but detection is volumetric. People can sense you from three directions, and the volume of detection is cubic with radius, meaning it’s the distance cubed ^3 that matters. When actively evading ships you can see, you’re keeping your signature radius outside your opponent’s detection radius. Because both signature and detection are cubic with range, the signature literally displays exponentially. 10 is nothing like a stealth ship. This matters most when you’re evading multiple opponents, who are distanced and scanning, which is the typical risk scenario. Pirates don’t clump up because they want to scan as much volume as possible.
The Lancer Max with weapons, shields and Retros turned off has an IR sig of just 6.6k which reduces to about 4.7 with the stealth switch on. Its EM is 4.6 so this is an excellent match. That’s a stealthy freighter. It’s half the signature of the C1 which is one eighth (2^3=8) the signature volume.
For further comparison consider the 400i, which is the largest stealth ship in game. It is significantly larger than the C1, but it has three S2 coolers and excellent reactor shielding (low EM), which yields a sig of just 5. That is again about 1/8 the signature volume of the C1.
All of this is going to matter much more when CIG restores the detection coefficient that distinguishes between S1, S2, S3, and S4 radars (more properly called “sensors”). Right now that is disabled and all radars function as S3, meaning signature = detection range.
BTW, the in game dynamic is usually more complex than this. Ships vary greatly as to which signature, EM or IR is greater. If you have an IR hot ship like the C1 and actually shut down the engines and drift decoupled, you should be able to sneak. It is not enough to throttle back. To kill your IR you need to shut the engines down. Conversely, ships like the Redeemer, Connie, Corsair, and MSR have such a high EM, that unless you shut down the reactor people are gonna see you. CIG deliberately did this to balance the game, which is why you absolutely need to include stealth for in-class metrics comparisons, and wargaming scenarios.
I have never heard why CIG temporarily disabled the detection coefficient but I suspect it was to simplify the stealth dynamic for the time being and amplify the difference when perishable sub-components come in game. We’ll eventually be able to tweak sensors to be more powerful at EM, or IR, or active radar, and ships like the Tracker, Terapin, and Cap ships will be able to do focused scans at greater range than the standard spherical scan.
You might say “that’s not so bad” but detection is volumetric. People can sense you from three directions, and the volume of detection is cubic with radius, meaning it’s the distance cubed ^3 that matters. When actively evading ships you can see, you’re keeping your signature radius outside your opponent’s detection radius. Because both signature and detection are cubic with range, the signature literally displays exponentially. 10 is nothing like a stealth ship. This matters most when you’re evading multiple opponents, who are distanced and scanning, which is the typical risk scenario. Pirates don’t clump up because they want to scan as much volume as possible.
The Lancer Max with weapons, shields and Retros turned off has an IR sig of just 6.6k which reduces to about 4.7 with the stealth switch on. Its EM is 4.6 so this is an excellent match. That’s a stealthy freighter. It’s half the signature of the C1 which is one eighth (2^3=8) the signature volume.
For further comparison consider the 400i, which is the largest stealth ship in game. It is significantly larger than the C1, but it has three S2 coolers and excellent reactor shielding (low EM), which yields a sig of just 5. That is again about 1/8 the signature volume of the C1.
All of this is going to matter much more when CIG restores the detection coefficient that distinguishes between S1, S2, S3, and S4 radars (more properly called “sensors”). Right now that is disabled and all radars function as S3, meaning signature = detection range.
BTW, the in game dynamic is usually more complex than this. Ships vary greatly as to which signature, EM or IR is greater. If you have an IR hot ship like the C1 and actually shut down the engines and drift decoupled, you should be able to sneak. It is not enough to throttle back. To kill your IR you need to shut the engines down. Conversely, ships like the Redeemer, Connie, Corsair, and MSR have such a high EM, that unless you shut down the reactor people are gonna see you. CIG deliberately did this to balance the game, which is why you absolutely need to include stealth for in-class metrics comparisons, and wargaming scenarios.
I have never heard why CIG temporarily disabled the detection coefficient but I suspect it was to simplify the stealth dynamic for the time being and amplify the difference when perishable sub-components come in game. We’ll eventually be able to tweak sensors to be more powerful at EM, or IR, or active radar, and ships like the Tracker, Terapin, and Cap ships will be able to do focused scans at greater range than the standard spherical scan.
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400i only got 42 cargo though not exactly a cargo ship. Still a good daily driver for me.
Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
I’m not a hauler guy, nor am I attracted to luxury, but I do love the capabilities of the 400i. Still waiting to see how the Zeus compares.
To get the most out of the 400i’s stealth there are a few counterintuitive things to consider.
First, you obviously need to fly with weapons, shield and retros off. People usually forget the retros and the ship flies very differently without them so have a go. Just remember to turn them back on when maneuvering for a landing. Power triangle to engines only. Retros off means the ship flies similarly to uncoupled, but uncoupling does not reduce IR the way shutting those engines down does. Parking is not a time to fly without retros.
Second, make use of the fact you have three reactors. Equip the first two with Eclipse for minimal signature. This doesn’t matter as much now as it will next time they balance stealth components, but flying with stealth reactors now will tell you what your engines can do with that power.
Next, equip your third reactor as military A and leave it off until you need the shield and weapons. Use voice attack to switch the shield, weapons and military reactor all on or off at once, and reset the power triangle. (“Battle Stations!” v “Stealth Mode”)
Most surprisingly, equip the coolers all with Industrial A Snowpacks, not with the stealth coolers. Stealth coolers reduce the minimum IR signature by a couple hundred each, for a total of 600. Industrial A coolers dump heat more than twice as fast as stealth coolers. Way more. 8,800/second each compared to 3,400/second for Stealth A. That’s 26,400 compared to 10,200. Industrial coolers dump heat damn near three times as fast. That’s faster than any single S3 cooler. What this means is, whenever you do a hard burn with your engines, you will reenter stealth afterward much more quickly—in about one third the time. That’s more important than an extra 600m radius stealth, which you can get by pointing the ship. It also means it’s near impossible to overheat the engines.
Industrial A is very underrated, IMHO.
To get the most out of the 400i’s stealth there are a few counterintuitive things to consider.
First, you obviously need to fly with weapons, shield and retros off. People usually forget the retros and the ship flies very differently without them so have a go. Just remember to turn them back on when maneuvering for a landing. Power triangle to engines only. Retros off means the ship flies similarly to uncoupled, but uncoupling does not reduce IR the way shutting those engines down does. Parking is not a time to fly without retros.
Second, make use of the fact you have three reactors. Equip the first two with Eclipse for minimal signature. This doesn’t matter as much now as it will next time they balance stealth components, but flying with stealth reactors now will tell you what your engines can do with that power.
Next, equip your third reactor as military A and leave it off until you need the shield and weapons. Use voice attack to switch the shield, weapons and military reactor all on or off at once, and reset the power triangle. (“Battle Stations!” v “Stealth Mode”)
Most surprisingly, equip the coolers all with Industrial A Snowpacks, not with the stealth coolers. Stealth coolers reduce the minimum IR signature by a couple hundred each, for a total of 600. Industrial A coolers dump heat more than twice as fast as stealth coolers. Way more. 8,800/second each compared to 3,400/second for Stealth A. That’s 26,400 compared to 10,200. Industrial coolers dump heat damn near three times as fast. That’s faster than any single S3 cooler. What this means is, whenever you do a hard burn with your engines, you will reenter stealth afterward much more quickly—in about one third the time. That’s more important than an extra 600m radius stealth, which you can get by pointing the ship. It also means it’s near impossible to overheat the engines.
Industrial A is very underrated, IMHO.
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By the Glory of Test, what a majestic run-down
Er wow ok as a regular 400i flyer who hasnt bothered with stealth gameplay or any of that other stuff - thats a lot tot take in and try out!!
what he saidBy the Glory of Test, what a majestic run-down