Persistence and Death of a Spaceman

NomadicHavoc

Commander
Nov 19, 2023
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NomadicHavoc
Anybody else super excited about persistence and death of a spaceman features?

I love the idea that the more you die the more worn your cloned body becomes - eventually requiring prosthetic bits and pieces. Then, as I understand it, you will eventually no longer be able to be cloned as there's not enough source DNA and your property will need to be handed down to your next of kin. There may be an inheritance tax but overall you can create a new character and continue on from there.

Really neat idea as there is a cost to dying. Plus, it would be fun to see your body become more and more trashed over time. You could brag to your friends, "yeah I got that prosthetic eye in the battle of Ellis", or "I lost my leg to a boreal stalker".

Anyone else thought about trying to find your old body, put in a cryotube, and store in your personal hanger? Is this a sign of reverence or kinda morbid having 30 bodies stacked up like plywood and on display?

Space Skeleton Astronaut Fine Art Black and White 5x7 Wall ...
 

Talonsbane

Space Marshal
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Jul 29, 2017
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If this was real, I'd be spending my initial life running around wearing a wig, because I'd have all my hair plucked at the base to have as many original DNA samples on hand for cloning, because I know that my level of skills vs my capability of not being clumsy will definitely be putting me in the position of "Oops!" I'd then leave instructions for my future clones to do the same in areas that they not wish to have the body hair, that will be added to levels of clone generations. Instant new retries generation after generation. I'd also do my best to have each of my clones also have any of their old organs harvested & sold if possible, just to add funds to the inheritance pot for future versions of myself. Morbid? Perhaps. Self serving? Definitely, but also my current thoughts pertaining to succeeding in a Death of a Spaceman scenario.
 

Garonman

Captain
Oct 15, 2022
257
741
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Garonman5
Anybody else super excited about persistence and death of a spaceman features?

I love the idea that the more you die the more worn your cloned body becomes - eventually requiring prosthetic bits and pieces. Then, as I understand it, you will eventually no longer be able to be cloned as there's not enough source DNA and your property will need to be handed down to your next of kin. There may be an inheritance tax but overall you can create a new character and continue on from there.

Really neat idea as there is a cost to dying. Plus, it would be fun to see your body become more and more trashed over time. You could brag to your friends, "yeah I got that prosthetic eye in the battle of Ellis", or "I lost my leg to a boreal stalker".

Anyone else thought about trying to find your old body, put in a cryotube, and store in your personal hanger? Is this a sign of reverence or kinda morbid having 30 bodies stacked up like plywood and on display?

View attachment 25476
To be honest, I am not really a fan of the whole idea. Imagine being griefed persistently and eventually the number of deaths means you now have to "pass down to next of kin" after your hard work.

It's something I'm keeping an eye on as it's one of the things which would make me walk away.
 

Thalstan

Space Marshal
Jun 5, 2016
2,007
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Thalstan
DoaS needs to die and go away.

People love to identify with their avatars. It might be a personality, an idealized look or how they wished they looked, or maybe they just like looking at something other than themselves.

People get invested in their characters. People in games tend to play a "main" character for a reason. It's the character they have invested the most of themselves into.

Now you come along and "sorry, you have died too many times, you character is perma dead" Re-roll.

At that point, a number of people who got into the game will leave the game, and if they don't leave the game, they stop "investing" in their character. Once they stop caring and investing in their character, they will start having more bad behavior to others (who cares if I fail, I need to re-roll after this next death anyway), etc. You will have more of a "zerg" attitude and you will probably invest your time and energy into other games, eventually leaving SC just because you are more interested in other stuff.

So, how do they justify all the stuff they have invested in arms, legs, eyes, etc. First off, have they even invested in this stuff? Second, why not make them have benefits and drawback so people can decided to use them, or even grow a replacement donor part that they can replace an artificial part they don't want anymore. So for instance, you can put telescopic capable eyes in and a sensor that attaches to your weapon. That will allow you to have a targeting marker no matter if you have a military visor or not, and you have a telescopic mount that can be put on any weapon. The bad news is that you have to mouse in and out of zoon instead of just right clicking to look down your scope. Artificial limbs can help you carry more, but have tighter limitations on operating temperatures. This means if your suit doesn't protect you from the temperature you are in, you can start breaking down/getting damaged faster than the old Mark 1 body part. It might also cost more to revive when you die as you need to be re-buy your augments (cloning only covers tissue unless you pay for augments to be replaced at time of regeneration)

In short, make the use of cybernetics a good, but player chosen option.
Death puts you back at your regen facility, usually without your ship, equipment, etc. (unless you buy insurance on your equipment), so you lose time, money, and possibly equipment. That seems like a big enough game penalty to me.

I agree, you don't want people needlessly dying so they can zerg an objective, but neither do you want them throwing up their hands and leaving because you are overbearing on your death penalty.

Allow people to start over with an alt if they want, or a new main if they want, but that should be their choice, not CIGs punishment for taking one too many to the head by a hidden sniper.
 

Garonman

Captain
Oct 15, 2022
257
741
200
RSI Handle
Garonman5
DoaS needs to die and go away.

People love to identify with their avatars. It might be a personality, an idealized look or how they wished they looked, or maybe they just like looking at something other than themselves.

People get invested in their characters. People in games tend to play a "main" character for a reason. It's the character they have invested the most of themselves into.

Now you come along and "sorry, you have died too many times, you character is perma dead" Re-roll.

At that point, a number of people who got into the game will leave the game, and if they don't leave the game, they stop "investing" in their character. Once they stop caring and investing in their character, they will start having more bad behavior to others (who cares if I fail, I need to re-roll after this next death anyway), etc. You will have more of a "zerg" attitude and you will probably invest your time and energy into other games, eventually leaving SC just because you are more interested in other stuff.

So, how do they justify all the stuff they have invested in arms, legs, eyes, etc. First off, have they even invested in this stuff? Second, why not make them have benefits and drawback so people can decided to use them, or even grow a replacement donor part that they can replace an artificial part they don't want anymore. So for instance, you can put telescopic capable eyes in and a sensor that attaches to your weapon. That will allow you to have a targeting marker no matter if you have a military visor or not, and you have a telescopic mount that can be put on any weapon. The bad news is that you have to mouse in and out of zoon instead of just right clicking to look down your scope. Artificial limbs can help you carry more, but have tighter limitations on operating temperatures. This means if your suit doesn't protect you from the temperature you are in, you can start breaking down/getting damaged faster than the old Mark 1 body part. It might also cost more to revive when you die as you need to be re-buy your augments (cloning only covers tissue unless you pay for augments to be replaced at time of regeneration)

In short, make the use of cybernetics a good, but player chosen option.
Death puts you back at your regen facility, usually without your ship, equipment, etc. (unless you buy insurance on your equipment), so you lose time, money, and possibly equipment. That seems like a big enough game penalty to me.

I agree, you don't want people needlessly dying so they can zerg an objective, but neither do you want them throwing up their hands and leaving because you are overbearing on your death penalty.

Allow people to start over with an alt if they want, or a new main if they want, but that should be their choice, not CIGs punishment for taking one too many to the head by a hidden sniper.
This. All of this. Everything. I get the want for a space sim but needing to take a space dump, shower, clean the armour etc and everything to just then get killed by a griefer or a game bug to then get a pop up telling you to make an entirely new guy and go back to the start. There's taking things too far.
 
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Aramsolari

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This. All of this. Everything. I get the want for a space sim but needing to take a space dump, shower, clean the armour etc and everything to just then get killed by a griefer or a game bug to then get a pop up telling you to make an entirely new guy and go back to the start. There's taking things too far.
I don't even shower or clean in real life! Why would I do that in a space sim?!!
 

Thalstan

Space Marshal
Jun 5, 2016
2,007
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Thalstan
This. All of this. Everything. I get the want for a space sim but needing to take a space dump, shower, clean the armour etc and everything to just then get killed by a griefer or a game bug to then get a pop up telling you to make an entirely new guy and go back to the start. There's taking things too far.
I have an idea for how to handle things like cleanliness.

Have a scale of 1-4. One means you are covered in filth. Think Ruin station, maybe the prison. 2 is most of loreville. 3 is the average citizen, 4 is the high end areas of Loreville and other worlds.

To maintain your current level, you must have access to facilities that match or exceed your current level of cleanliness. To improve your level, you need to USE said facilities.
Obtain and maintain level 4. High end apartment/home/base with appropriate facilities, or an 890J or similar level of luxury (600i?). Sauna, pool, toilet, shower, etc.
Obtain and maintain level 3. Shower, Toilet
Obtain and maintain level 2 - Toilet and sink
Maintain level 1 - no access to sanitary facilities.

Maybe you add in an extra level to raise the very high end, but this should work.

So, if you sit in your F8 lightning, Hornet, Cutty Black, etc for a long time, you will eventually devolve to level 1. A no facilities environment is level 1

If you are in a Connie, you can maintain level 3

If you are in an 890, you can maintain level 4 indefinitely.

To improve your level, you need to actively use the facilities. As you use the facilities, your cleanliness level displays as a bar graph (similar to drinking water). When it fills up the current level, it will display the next level if it can (if you are on a connie, it will fill level 3, but never display level 4).

Once you exit the sanitary facility, your sanitary level will slowly max out at the level it's currently on. So it might take 1 minute/bar in the sauna/shower to get from level 1 to level 2, another to get to level 3, and another to get to level 4 plus one more to max level 4. (4 mintues) OR, you can spend just 3 minutes in the sauna/shower and just get into level 4. Over the next hour or two, your sanitary level is slowly brought up. BUT, if you have to leave immediately into an unsanitary environment, it might be only a few minutes before you fall back into level 3.

In general, the greater the difference between your current level and the environment level, the faster it degrades.

So if you are level 4 but exit from your 890 onto ruin station, it might take you just 1 hour to go from maxed level 4 to level 3, another 3 hours from level 3 to level 2, and 8 more to fall to level 1.
Of course, you can actively downgrade your level if you desire, taking 1 minute/level just like cleaning up does.

It still allows for cleanliness to impact reactions by NPCs that you don't have a reputation with, it still makes ships with sanitary facilities useful, but it doesn't require people to actively take a shower unless they want to.

Same with kitchens and food. Access to fresh food, access to canned/frozen food, access to MRE type rations, access to yeast nutrients. Those with lower scores with food have negative reactions when below a certain amount and positive reactions when above a certain amount if they are an NPC, and better nutrition levels give you slightly more stamina when running, enduring G forces, etc. Undersuits and helmets have access to yeast nutrients and recycled water (think still-suits) so you never go hungry or thirsty, but you can reduce your effective nutrition level if you don't eat the good stuff on a regular basis.
 

NaffNaffBobFace

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NaffNaffBobFace
I have a vague recollection that deaths which can be identified as having been caused by unfairness won't have the same weight on the DoaSM counter as types of death that happen naturally.

A ganker pad-ramming ships will have their DoaSM respawns tick off at many times the rate of those being ganked. The victims may not incur a respawn penalty at all and get one gratis, for example.

With intelligent algorythems it's not going to be too difficult to spot and weight accordingly and if people try to play the system with a burner account ganking their main game account that too can be picked up on with IP addresses, which accounts play with eachother etc etc etc.

We don't need to fear DoaSM but we do need to ask these questions - if the elevator/ladder/stairs/30k kills me, what weighting is that going to have on my DoaSM ledger?

One thing is for sure though... I'm not going to put too much effort into my first incarnation, and I won't be doing any racing or fighting outside of Arena Commander. My 'Verse life just isn't worth the risk.
 

Garonman

Captain
Oct 15, 2022
257
741
200
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Garonman5
I have an idea for how to handle things like cleanliness.

Have a scale of 1-4. One means you are covered in filth. Think Ruin station, maybe the prison. 2 is most of loreville. 3 is the average citizen, 4 is the high end areas of Loreville and other worlds.

To maintain your current level, you must have access to facilities that match or exceed your current level of cleanliness. To improve your level, you need to USE said facilities.
Obtain and maintain level 4. High end apartment/home/base with appropriate facilities, or an 890J or similar level of luxury (600i?). Sauna, pool, toilet, shower, etc.
Obtain and maintain level 3. Shower, Toilet
Obtain and maintain level 2 - Toilet and sink
Maintain level 1 - no access to sanitary facilities.

Maybe you add in an extra level to raise the very high end, but this should work.

So, if you sit in your F8 lightning, Hornet, Cutty Black, etc for a long time, you will eventually devolve to level 1. A no facilities environment is level 1

If you are in a Connie, you can maintain level 3

If you are in an 890, you can maintain level 4 indefinitely.

To improve your level, you need to actively use the facilities. As you use the facilities, your cleanliness level displays as a bar graph (similar to drinking water). When it fills up the current level, it will display the next level if it can (if you are on a connie, it will fill level 3, but never display level 4).

Once you exit the sanitary facility, your sanitary level will slowly max out at the level it's currently on. So it might take 1 minute/bar in the sauna/shower to get from level 1 to level 2, another to get to level 3, and another to get to level 4 plus one more to max level 4. (4 mintues) OR, you can spend just 3 minutes in the sauna/shower and just get into level 4. Over the next hour or two, your sanitary level is slowly brought up. BUT, if you have to leave immediately into an unsanitary environment, it might be only a few minutes before you fall back into level 3.

In general, the greater the difference between your current level and the environment level, the faster it degrades.

So if you are level 4 but exit from your 890 onto ruin station, it might take you just 1 hour to go from maxed level 4 to level 3, another 3 hours from level 3 to level 2, and 8 more to fall to level 1.
Of course, you can actively downgrade your level if you desire, taking 1 minute/level just like cleaning up does.

It still allows for cleanliness to impact reactions by NPCs that you don't have a reputation with, it still makes ships with sanitary facilities useful, but it doesn't require people to actively take a shower unless they want to.

Same with kitchens and food. Access to fresh food, access to canned/frozen food, access to MRE type rations, access to yeast nutrients. Those with lower scores with food have negative reactions when below a certain amount and positive reactions when above a certain amount if they are an NPC, and better nutrition levels give you slightly more stamina when running, enduring G forces, etc. Undersuits and helmets have access to yeast nutrients and recycled water (think still-suits) so you never go hungry or thirsty, but you can reduce your effective nutrition level if you don't eat the good stuff on a regular basis.
There's a lot of food for thought there. It could go very much like that in the release. It will be interesting to see how they do it. I just hope they don't have hygiene levels lowering way too quickly like they do at times with hydration/food levels.

Thank god for the 3 drinks can hydration glitch. Never ending drink :o7:
 

Garonman

Captain
Oct 15, 2022
257
741
200
RSI Handle
Garonman5
I have a vague recollection that deaths which can be identified as having been caused by unfairness won't have the same weight on the DoaSM counter as types of death that happen naturally.

A ganker pad-ramming ships will have their DoaSM respawns tick off at many times the rate of those being ganked. The victims may not incur a respawn penalty at all and get one gratis, for example.

With intelligent algorythems it's not going to be too difficult to spot and weight accordingly and if people try to play the system with a burner account ganking their main game account that too can be picked up on with IP addresses, which accounts play with eachother etc etc etc.

We don't need to fear DoaSM but we do need to ask these questions - if the elevator/ladder/stairs/30k kills me, what weighting is that going to have on my DoaSM ledger?

One thing is for sure though... I'm not going to put too much effort into my first incarnation, and I won't be doing any racing or fighting outside of Arena Commander. My 'Verse life just isn't worth the risk.
Great thoughts.. you just have me an idea. I will probably now have a pathfinder character. Literally just a guy going around finding routes, points of interest and finding safe(r) areas so I can then commit my faction-point-earning and money earner to the actual game. Recording all information to then run my normal guy through it.

Also will probably have another guy for big org battles that will be my captain aboard my Idris.
 

Talonsbane

Space Marshal
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Jul 29, 2017
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Talonsbane
To be honest, I am not really a fan of the whole idea. Imagine being griefed persistently and eventually the number of deaths means you now have to "pass down to next of kin" after your hard work.

It's something I'm keeping an eye on as it's one of the things which would make me walk away.
My best suggestion for this is simply that WE are part of TEST Squadron. If somebody griefs us, there's enough of us that we usually have somebody available online or can log in to help deal with the griefer to some degree. IF it's a group of griefers, then together we can TESTify by making their in game lives absolutely suck, by obliterating them in the most random, stupid & alcohol fueled chaos means possible, potentially while some of us are streaming their endless demise followed by TBagging to advertise to the Verse that those jerks aren't worth joining. We often state that we will block out a star with our Auroras, well imagine that level of numbers with dedication, combined with creativity & a bit of intoxicated frivality being used to make the griefers into giant butts of their own jokes? I'm thinking that if they are ambushed, choked out, then stuck in their own ship's cargo bay, that's filled full around them with Waste materials. If their friends arrive in time, they have to live down having been buried under a pile of manure. Biff can suck on that.

 

Talonsbane

Space Marshal
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Jul 29, 2017
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Talonsbane
This. All of this. Everything. I get the want for a space sim but needing to take a space dump, shower, clean the armour etc and everything to just then get killed by a griefer or a game bug to then get a pop up telling you to make an entirely new guy and go back to the start. There's taking things too far.
Unless I'm alone in this, taking dumps & showers should require that there be some degree of nudity brought into the game, since CIG & especially CR wants to have the game have immersion. I'll support SC having nudity in game for the sake of immersion, even if it's only available to those that are verified as being 18+ such as in other games.
 

NomadicHavoc

Commander
Nov 19, 2023
252
736
100
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NomadicHavoc
This. All of this. Everything. I get the want for a space sim but needing to take a space dump, shower, clean the armour etc and everything to just then get killed by a griefer or a game bug to then get a pop up telling you to make an entirely new guy and go back to the start. There's taking things too far.
I need my space poo! Anything less is not acceptable.

I get what you guys are thinking. In previous games I really enjoy creating my avatar and keeping that as my main (I never create alt avatars). But, I don't think anything is set in stone and CIG appears to be giving us all kinds of flexibility to play the way we want to. They have recently allowed us to save our avatar appearance, so I would expect that if your character "dies" you could just upload your favorite saved appearance - so nothing lost on that front. For those of us who want to create a next of kin avatar, then we could do that as well.

I like the idea of giving the player the choice to earn and add cybernetics with buffs. I can only imagine that this will be the case. But, I think it would be just fine to choose to have cybernetics implanted or have a replacement appendage grafted on when serious injuries occur - I think that I heard that this was the plan. Perhaps crafted cybernetics will have better buffs than 'earned' through death cybernetics? Who knows...
 
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