DontTouchMyHoHos
Space Marshal
I mean, I read it all. I think you are misunderstanding something. I'm very capable of reading and understanding, thank you.
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Piracy in 3.6.2
- Thread starter Mastersan
- Start date
DontTouchMyHoHos
Space Marshal
As everyone has stated, its near impossible to understand why someone else is doing something without them explicitly stating so. People are always going to assume the worse and if they ask and the player refuses to tell them, because they are not obligated to, they will see this as a sign justifying their own assumption and go to spread false hate based on it. There isn't just simply piracy. In this game i'm allowed to go hunt someone down just for the sheer enjoyment of it. Also some have stated denying players the ability to play the game, that is subjective. Because simply killing someone is denying them the ability to not play the game. Vague answers to griefing that cover broad generalization will ruin peoples ability to play the bad guy.
Absence of CrimeStat, I suppose. That is, you can't put a bounty on someone, unless they have a CrimeStat. If you are a good citizen - nothing to be afraid of.
If you make 50k-60k from multiple millions, let's say 10 mil, then your margin is 0.5%-0.6%, that's just not a very good business, don't make this kind of deals, or indeed you won't be trading much longer. You can work with %, that is, for instance, seek adequate returns, let's say 5%-10% for large hauling, and greater %% for smaller hauling, and allocate 10% of your profits for security and insurance.
No one can be totally safe from a targeted attack, but the idea is to make it not worth the risk and return for an average "pirate".
Also, as for the intent. As many said above, it's impossible to know someone's intent. So, here, I guess, the mechanics of real life can be implemented, e.g. you can't guarantee someone won't hit your car at the parking and just drive away, but that's where insurance come handy. The most important thing I believe is not to over-complicate things, since this is a game and it's supposed to be fun.
Well that's not gaming the system. I mean a group who commit crimes, but not always at the same time, so there's always at least one person who can look like a legit bounty hunter. But they're friends, and share the bounties they collect. They could even rotate a few times, who's going to be the bounty hunter.
I see what you mean. That's a good question. I think there may be a couple of elements to this. First, that's where the rankings can be used - the "stars" we currently have against beacons. Also, you may choose who to give the bounty contract to. Currently it's whoever accepts the contract first. However, I believe it makes sense in certain cases to allow a contract giver to select whom they give the contract to. So, if you want to give a bounty contract, you may either give it to everyone, or you may limit the offer and look at the past performance of a bounty hunter, - maybe they are in a reputable org, etc. This may not necessarily prevent the scenario you've described, as a group member that looks like a legit bounty hunter may indeed be looking like one and be in a reputable bounty hunting org and have a great past performance. So, the second element is "permadeath" or a variation of it, since we have been told you won't really loose all, but will sacrifice something. If a pirate character dies, and they sacrifice something, this something will need to be worth more than the bounty, so that if their friend gets some benefits, the group as a whole is still at a net loss.
The second element may look like a solution and the first element may appear as unnecessary, however, I think the first element will keep an element of a thrill, since the "pirate" with a bounty on them can't have a quick and easy solution for the bounty to be collected by the pirate group. The "pirate" will always need to be very careful and won't be able to relax when a bounty hunter may come from anywhere.
I found this,
"The Bounty Hunter Armor Set was originally planned for 3.7 but has been re-prioritized to align the asset release alongside the Bounty Hunting gameplay (Bounty Mission NPC Improvements & PVP Bounties) coming in 3.9."
Roadmap Roundup - September 6th, 2019 - Roberts Space Industries | Follow the development of Star Citizen and Squadron 42
Roberts Space Industries is the official go-to website for all news about Star Citizen and Squadron 42. It also hosts the online store for game items and merch, as well as all the community tools used by our fans.
robertsspaceindustries.com
So we'll start to see answers soon(tm)
Then take it from the other angle: Define greifing.
Yes you are allowed to play the bad guy, at no point have I ever suggested a roll-player could not walk down the street in Area 18 with a machete and hack everyone down in their guise as a maniac. What I am talking about is greifing and, to be specific, on-line Bullying.
Hunting down other players for pleasure, you do you, but systematically harassing a single player killing them over and over until they quit the game session is greifing, that is what is meant by the term. You can be a bad guy, make your name as a pirate, I'm not suggesting that shouldn't be, but Systematic and pronged bouts of harassment should not be tolerated just because it's not on-the-surface obvious what a players motives are to those who are using the front end of the game.
There are, however, ways to identify it with game data. It is a general acceptance that pirates motive is profit so if a pirate is not then maximizing on the spoils of their actions, the game will be able to identify this:
If a pirate destroys a Freelancer and (assuming they are undisturbed by security or other players) doesn't pick up the loot, the game data will show this.
If a pirate is not denying access to just their turf but all turf, the game data will show this.
If a pirate is pad-camping or spawn-haunting and targeting indiscriminately, the game data will show this.
If the pirate systematically harasses the same target over and over and over, the game data will show this.
Hell, even if someone is streaming and some d-bag tries to snipe them, the game data will show this.
Quite what the game can then do to persecute this kind of activity I don't know, but SC is going to be one of the most advanced games devised to date - it already is with no loading screens between destinations and fully operational and intractable ship interiors. It would be nice to think there may be some kind of leaning machine in the back systems that detects greifers actions and if not enacting true justice with some kind of Pirates Code (Give 'em the Black Spot!) could filll their ship with rats or something to call them out on it.
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I found this,
"The Bounty Hunter Armor Set was originally planned for 3.7 but has been re-prioritized to align the asset release alongside the Bounty Hunting gameplay (Bounty Mission NPC Improvements & PVP Bounties) coming in 3.9."
Roadmap Roundup - September 6th, 2019 - Roberts Space Industries | Follow the development of Star Citizen and Squadron 42
Roberts Space Industries is the official go-to website for all news about Star Citizen and Squadron 42. It also hosts the online store for game items and merch, as well as all the community tools used by our fans.robertsspaceindustries.com
So we'll start to see answers soon(tm)
There are some items from the same link that add to the security issue:
- Prison Gameplay: <...> Prisons. We’ll create prison environments <...> to deliver Prison gameplay loops.
- Law System Improvements: After specific infractions and capture by authorities, criminal players will wake up in prison, and must either serve time, earn merits, or find a way to escape the prison with or without the aid of fellow players. We’re currently working on this feature-set, but aren’t quite ready to put it on the Roadmap just yet.
So, there will be something for a pirate to lose: be it a permadeath (or sort of) or prison. There also can be patrol, ECN, and beacons missions for players, like there are now, even for NPCs to help. I.e. good players group and go on patrol for a certain time for a certain reward, and respond to any distress call / pirate attack. There may be many things that can be implemented, so, yes, I guess just wait and see.
Beautiful! I sort of skimmed over it, and didn't read past "bespoke" in the text, it causes me to roll my eyes every time.
DontTouchMyHoHos
Space Marshal
I would consider only 2 of those to be griefing. If a player destroys a freelancer and doesnt pick up the loot, that is their prerogative, that isn't a form of greifing. If I decide to deny access to all turf, that again isn't griefing, you are not singleling out an individual by doing that. Pad camping and spawn haunting could be simply denying a port to leave to make a statement or deny people access to a certain area due to an operation by an evil org performing something in the area and their enemies are spawning there. So instead of risking them getting out they are denying all people from leaving until they finish. Also if a person harassed another person first and so they decided to send them a message not to mess with them, the system shouldn't dictate who is and isn't in the right. The system lacks insight. Anyone streaming and claim stream sniping and that is impossible to prove without extreme amounts of evidence. All those points are vague and easily manipulated to be in favor of the person crying grief when they lack information on what is actually going on.
A system should never dictate whether someone is or isnt griefing. The game will create zones very much like EVE and if you are operating in places not covered by those zones they you do so at your own risk. Piracy isn't the only thing going to be conducted in this game. PvP is allowed and simply straight up killing with no other purpose but to kill you is allowed. Honor isn't a rule, it's a self imposed social aspect and the people who follow that should never be able to dictate what others can do. Saying a system should be in place to detect griefers is a really bad system that never works properly and it strangles PvP and ruins it. This is a game about freedom, and the ability to do whatever you want, how ever you want. The game itself will have people who protect those and AI that protect those. If I want to take a group and raid a high sec zone, I will and must be allowed to do so, because that shit is fun and this is a video game. There are extreme cases of harassment, but at the same time there is numerous ways to counteract it and because one side will ALWAYS lack information, you will need a lot of evidence to prove griefing.
DontTouchMyHoHos
Space Marshal
I would also like to add, if someone is killing your over and over and over and over again at what point are you just feeding him for the purpose of making him a griefer instead of actually engaging in the gameplay itself, I.E. calling friends for help, socializing with others to form new groups to stop them or simply hiring people to help you, which is the case. Having the mentality of I will do nothing but repeatedly exit this port and die over and over while doing absolutely nothing to improve my own position is in itself refusing to play the game. Its an online mmo, interact with people, get a bigger group, hire people, wait for AI to come to aid, or do something other than hate that single person to the point you don't care about utilizing any of the numerous mechanics that this game will offer. It's extremely easy to stop a griefer unless they have mad numbers, but then when you have 50 people attacking a port and denying the ability to leave is that still griefing? To me I see this as an opportunity to have some awesome PvP and gather people to counter raid and I see this as a fun entertainment way for big pvp battles to start. It only becomes griefing in my eyes when the other player refuses to interact and do something about it.
The people who I have seen call people griefers are the people who take the abuse and do nothing. They don't want to PvP in a game with PvP, they dont want to socially interact with people to get a raid and have some fun, they simply want to ignore core mechanics of the game and believe if people utilize those core mechanics to play the game. Those people are bad and ruin the game. You cannot have PvP without something attacking and killing people, you cannot have a bounty hunter class without people killing someone. With the ability to have bounty hunters if a person harasses then utilize the game to stop it, don't ignore it. Systematically killing someone over and over is highly abusable and again it should not be dictated by a system. I can verbally harass someone continually over and over and over never stopping simply to goad someone to attack me over and over. You could say I could put them on ignore, but then I can say the same thing about the person getting actually griefed, you could gather a group of people to stop them and actually interact with the game utilizing its features. There will always be 2 sides of the coin, there will always be people pointing the finger, but this game seems to implement features and mechanics to counteract that vast majority of situations and if your solution is to simply ignore those mechanics and just claim griefing, then you yourself are denying yourself the game, picking and choosing what someone else is allowed to do and calling them abusers when you are doing absolutely nothing to improve your position. Yes, there is exceptions, but the vast majority of the situations are going to be people refusing to actually play the game themselves and claim grief. Star Citizen isn't a single player game.
Edit: Also by doing nothing and simply calling grief, you deny bounty hunters, white knight orgs, and so forth the opportunity to perform their jobs.
View: https://clips.twitch.tv/CrunchyCuteFlyPanicBasket
There are people who would consider this griefing, but this is the amazing thing about unrestricted pvp. You dont get content like this with an automated system. Earlier they were talking about an even bigger raid denying all people the ability to fly into the town to reinforce it. If people have no idea what is going on and they see 40 people sitting at a jump point denying complete usage of it, they would call this griefing.
The people who I have seen call people griefers are the people who take the abuse and do nothing. They don't want to PvP in a game with PvP, they dont want to socially interact with people to get a raid and have some fun, they simply want to ignore core mechanics of the game and believe if people utilize those core mechanics to play the game. Those people are bad and ruin the game. You cannot have PvP without something attacking and killing people, you cannot have a bounty hunter class without people killing someone. With the ability to have bounty hunters if a person harasses then utilize the game to stop it, don't ignore it. Systematically killing someone over and over is highly abusable and again it should not be dictated by a system. I can verbally harass someone continually over and over and over never stopping simply to goad someone to attack me over and over. You could say I could put them on ignore, but then I can say the same thing about the person getting actually griefed, you could gather a group of people to stop them and actually interact with the game utilizing its features. There will always be 2 sides of the coin, there will always be people pointing the finger, but this game seems to implement features and mechanics to counteract that vast majority of situations and if your solution is to simply ignore those mechanics and just claim griefing, then you yourself are denying yourself the game, picking and choosing what someone else is allowed to do and calling them abusers when you are doing absolutely nothing to improve your position. Yes, there is exceptions, but the vast majority of the situations are going to be people refusing to actually play the game themselves and claim grief. Star Citizen isn't a single player game.
Edit: Also by doing nothing and simply calling grief, you deny bounty hunters, white knight orgs, and so forth the opportunity to perform their jobs.
There are people who would consider this griefing, but this is the amazing thing about unrestricted pvp. You dont get content like this with an automated system. Earlier they were talking about an even bigger raid denying all people the ability to fly into the town to reinforce it. If people have no idea what is going on and they see 40 people sitting at a jump point denying complete usage of it, they would call this griefing.
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I remember when G-Hex first came online. People...especially those with criminal ratings..were complaining and crying up a storm when "do-gooders" came over and shot up every ship, every person who ran to a ship, etc at G-Hex. People justified it as "role-playing" and said "those criminal scum deserved it"
Yes, everyone who spawned at G-Hex had a criminal rating, so yes, people would logically claim they were taking out pirates and other criminal scum.
But to me, that's as much griefing as pad-ramming at Port O. People were taking advantage of some rules that prevented others from fighting back and were using it to prevent others from being able to play the game.
Initially, SG and CR lauded the "emergent gameplay" that was coming out at the cry-astro stations when people blockaded the stations and charged exorbitant fees to allow them access.
Then they realized people stopped playing and quickly changed their tune.
A little piracy is good for the game. It encourages people to pay attention and can provide a bit of a challenge or opportunities to learn some lessons. It gives people who want to be bounty hunters a chance to be one. It gives players that really want to be pirates and opportunity to try.
A lot of piracy is bad for the game. it drives away all but the hardcore PvPers and pushes away 90 percent of the game population. PvP and Piracy are supposed to be a very small part of the game. Exploration, Trading, Mining, Data-running, etc are all supposed to play a much bigger role in the game.
Yes, everyone who spawned at G-Hex had a criminal rating, so yes, people would logically claim they were taking out pirates and other criminal scum.
But to me, that's as much griefing as pad-ramming at Port O. People were taking advantage of some rules that prevented others from fighting back and were using it to prevent others from being able to play the game.
Initially, SG and CR lauded the "emergent gameplay" that was coming out at the cry-astro stations when people blockaded the stations and charged exorbitant fees to allow them access.
Then they realized people stopped playing and quickly changed their tune.
A little piracy is good for the game. It encourages people to pay attention and can provide a bit of a challenge or opportunities to learn some lessons. It gives people who want to be bounty hunters a chance to be one. It gives players that really want to be pirates and opportunity to try.
A lot of piracy is bad for the game. it drives away all but the hardcore PvPers and pushes away 90 percent of the game population. PvP and Piracy are supposed to be a very small part of the game. Exploration, Trading, Mining, Data-running, etc are all supposed to play a much bigger role in the game.
Thank you for accepting even two of the things I pointed out were Greifing, however I believe if I were to attempt to retort I'd just be repeating myself. Please refer to my previous post as to my impression of harassment online.
I feel we are talking about two different things. You are talking about consensual/non-consensual PVP, I am talking about griefing, harassment and cyberbullying.
I feel we are talking about two different things. You are talking about consensual/non-consensual PVP, I am talking about griefing, harassment and cyberbullying.
Victim blaming... Nope, I'm not going there.
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Well, StarCitizen is not really a PvP or PvE game to me. It's a PvPvE game. Also, it was announced, I think in Reverse the Verse, that in the long run it is expected to be 95% NPC and 5% players when the game is live. Also, it was said, I think also in Reverse the Verse, that players will "live" in a "world" where a player is a small part. So, while things like mass raids are not necessarily griefing, if there are mass blockades/raids/area denials etc. in a controlled space, (e.g. UEE controlled space), then there may simply be a greater force kicking in, like a UEE Navy may show up, clear the area, and stay there for a while for things to calm down.
I agree to much can be toxic to the community as a whole. Luckily it seems CIG is first making sure the game world is populated with NPC's both acting as pirates and as security forces and so the player population is but a small part of the overall game world. This should help pirates have lots of targets to pick from instead of only being able to pick on other players. And it gives those who wish to pick on pirates or who want to have combat lite the possibility to pick the game experience they wish to engage in.
So far what I am seeing within the road map and videos is they want piracy to be difficult and need skill in both coordination and planning which is good things as it will make those who just want to watch the world burn quickly subjugated to a smaller area of the game (jail) and their influence and abilities to do anything severely limited as they will not have the capital to continue to buy ships/weapons and ammo.
I just want to point out this is well said.
But like all good things in life, there need to be limits.
DontTouchMyHoHos
Space Marshal
Victim blaming, no im not victim blaming. I'm trying to start pvp wars and people are refusing to participate and instead they call you griefers. To start a war, people have to die. So if you decide to start a war on a port, you are going to have to die for that to happen. No one in this thread mentioned cyber bullying or harassment. Griefing is completely different than cyber bullying or harassment
edit: I would appreciate it if you had a discussion without bringing in things that have nothing to do with the topic of griefing, piracy and so forth and making assumptions. If you are talking about harassment and cyberbullying you need to make that explicit. this topic is about piracy, not harassment and cyberbullying.
edit: Also the two things I point out I may consider close to griefing, those others dont even come close. It simply sounds like you hate pvp and this isn't the game for you.
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DontTouchMyHoHos
Space Marshal
Rightfully so there does need to be limits, but just like in Eve. Those limits are imposed by players through PvP. People camping? A group of the good guys gathers up to mess their world up. It shouldnt be regulated by bans and restrictions.
DontTouchMyHoHos
Space Marshal
This is why I believe griefing will never be an issue. There will always be mechanics in place to counteract it and if someone succeeds in sieging an area with AI, it wont last long. If you enter a place with so AI security, then what happens happens and you willing entered that area knowing what could happen.
DontTouchMyHoHos
Space Marshal
To me if you have a criminal record and someone kills you for that, you deserved it. There is no crying in the criminal world, shouldn't have fucked up then and decided to do something wrong, but why cannot people blockade a port? Why are they not allowed un-fretted access to pvp? Why does PvE only get the say? If you wanted a PvE only game in a mmo, then play a game without PvP. The game is and will be designed with PvP, Piracy, Smuggling, and illegal activities in mind. To say, whoa there hold on. I dont want to play that game, change it so everyone else who wants it cant utilize it or restrict it to much it makes it 100% pointless and essentially kills it off completely to the point where there is nothing gained from it. You remove all reward from PvP and Piracy it will become nothing but people killing you simply because that is all there is to do. Some people want a challenge to see how long they can siege a port and prevent access to it. Open world pvp mmos do this all the time. It isn't griefing. If 40 people do it, its a raid, but if a smaller group wants to try it they are automatically griefers. The numbers dont dictate griefing or not.
On the topic of people blockading and people charging, the game isnt even close to completion and has no mechanics that would counter act that issue, also. Its an alpha game, people need to abuse systems. This game isnt finished, so I honestly couldnt care less if people got upset over others abusing something when the game isnt even finished. This game will have piracy and this game will have PvP if you dont like it, honestly stop trying to change the game, i would make a safe bet the majority of the people buying Star Citizen is because of its EvE like state. PvP is literally as big as people make it. It is player driven, not game driven. When you have open pvp, the only thing stopping it from being big or small is the community. They wouldn't have ship boadring and all these pvp mechanics if it wasn't a big part of the game. Eve's pvp isnt massive by any means, most of the time people are doing PvE things, but when it happens it is big and massive.