Ship prices in UEC

[Floating Cloud]

We were in the right ballpark when we did the theorycrafting a couple of years ago: https://testsquadron.com/threads/estimated-ship-prices-in-uec-based-on-rsi-estimates-nov-2016.9415/page-2#post-153997

Prices quoted in the Citizencon stream (prices aren't set in stone yet, and there will be fluctuation):

Hammerhead - 21,429,600 UEC
Prospector - 1,620,750 UEC
Origin 85X - 616,000 UEC
Aurora - 220,900 UEC
Mustang - around 100,000 UEC (off the top of Chris's head)

Reward for what was probably a 30 to 40 minute mission was around 4,000 UEC (400 of those to buy a Prospector, 25 to buy a 100,000 UEC ship)

 

[Deroth]

Nioce!

Hmmm...I wonder what it'll be for the BMM and Kraken.

 

[Printimus]

very cool!

 

[Radegast74]

We were in the right ballpark when we did the theorycrafting a couple of years ago: https://testsquadron.com/threads/estimated-ship-prices-in-uec-based-on-rsi-estimates-nov-2016.9415/page-2#post-153997

Prices quoted in the Citizencon stream (prices aren't set in stone yet, and there will be fluctuation):

Hammerhead - 21,429,600 UEC
Prospector - 1,620,750 UEC
Origin 85X - 616,000 UEC
Aurora - 220,900 UEC
Mustang - around 100,000 UEC (off the top of Chris's head)

Reward for what was probably a 30 to 40 minute mission was around 4,000 UEC (400 of those to buy a Prospector, 25 to buy a 100,000 UEC ship)

Right, using round numbers (i.e., 22 million for the HH) I worked out that it would take 5,500 person-missions to buy a Hammerhead (assuming you didn't spend it on anything else). So, it would take 100 people 55 missions each to earn it.

The 4000 UEC for a mission is spot on with one benchmark I was thinking about...I figured a play session should be about 2 hours, and CIG would want people to earn either a week's or a month's worth of wages. 12,000 UEC for 2 hours of gameplay (potentially) would be a month's worth of wages, as a sim compared to real life, and is the upper end of what I would have thought they would do.

The Ship prices are a little low, compared to what I would have thought. But still, I'm sure people will complain!

 

[Sirus7264]

I think these prices are only going to be temporary so they can test buying ships in the verse. if they don't set them low enough then players can't buy ships in verse which means those ships will never be tested prior to the next patch.

 

[Bambooza]

Ya. So about 400 hours to get a prospector.

Right, using round numbers (i.e., 22 million for the HH) I worked out that it would take 5,500 person-missions to buy a Hammerhead (assuming you didn't spend it on anything else). So, it would take 100 people 55 missions each to earn it.

The 4000 UEC for a mission is spot on with one benchmark I was thinking about...I figured a play session should be about 2 hours, and CIG would want people to earn either a week's or a month's worth of wages. 12,000 UEC for 2 hours of gameplay (potentially) would be a month's worth of wages, as a sim compared to real life, and is the upper end of what I would have thought they would do.

The Ship prices are a little low, compared to what I would have thought. But still, I'm sure people will complain!

Just remember these are the low end missions. I am sure as you go up or have better ships/gear/rep you can earn more per mission.

 

[Michael]

So there is no (edit linear) relation between "real world ship" prices and ingame ship prices.

 

[Xist]

There is a relation, it's just not linear.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

Worth remembering none of this is set in stone. There will be some missions with a 100k UEC reward, I'm sure. Some ship prices will come down. Aurora i'd expect to be on level or even cheaper than Mustang considering RSI's history of putting people in space for the least amount of money.

 

[Crymsan]

Given that mission rewards, trading and most careers are in very early development I cannot see the worry about any costs yet. If it gives people some to strive towards in Alpha well great.

 

[Arcturos]

Right, using round numbers (i.e., 22 million for the HH) I worked out that it would take 5,500 person-missions to buy a Hammerhead (assuming you didn't spend it on anything else). So, it would take 100 people 55 missions each to earn it.

The 4000 UEC for a mission is spot on with one benchmark I was thinking about...I figured a play session should be about 2 hours, and CIG would want people to earn either a week's or a month's worth of wages. 12,000 UEC for 2 hours of gameplay (potentially) would be a month's worth of wages, as a sim compared to real life, and is the upper end of what I would have thought they would do.

The Ship prices are a little low, compared to what I would have thought. But still, I'm sure people will complain!

A little low? If anything the prices for the starters are nothing short of retarded. I can understand the Hammerhead costing that much, given that it's not a solo ship, but an Aurora costs 220 000 UEC? A Mustang - 100 000 UEC? Those are very, very basic ships. It's the equivalent of a basic Toyota model, for example, costing as much as an S63 AMG. Yeah.. seems like a good deal. Those ships should be around the 50 000 mark, if that. What happens if you lose everything? I want to quickly be able to jump back in a ship and start playing again. Not be a maid on someones ship for a month before I can get an Aurora again... If someone wants to serve on other peoples ship - by all means, let them do it. But have the option NOT to for those that aren't that keen on the idea. And the Prospector, an entry level miner is 1.6 million UEC? So in order to get one, if you don't spend ANY of the money you make, which just isn't going to happen because you have costs to cover when doing those missions - fuel, landing fees, ammunition, repair and so on, you'd need to do 400 of those 4000 UEC missions with the number of needed mission increasing when you factor in those operational costs. Yeah..seems like fun. Doing the same couple of mission variations for 400+ times.. and that is, given how multiple people can compete for the same mission, if BigFatWalletWhale93 doesn't blow your ship up and mutilate you with his gold plated guns and vessel just because he can, as shown in the demo... Then it's back to the hospital, waiting for your ship to be remade.. And god forbid you actually installed anything on it but didn't have the insurance to cover it.. You have to grind that back too. People with just an Aurora, if those prices remain the same, are going to brand this game as a ridiculous grind and quit it faster than Roberts can say "diegetic fidelity" and make a sales pitch mid demo for his new ship. And if the Aurora is 200 000, I shudder to think how much an Avenger or a Cutlass will cost.

And yes, I do realize that, as Roberts said, their economy isn't in but why not show lower prices? Given that nothing is set in stone, why not make everything cheaper and then incrementally increase it if your metrics show that people are getting ships too easy. You know, like - "Hey folks, we've set lower prices on those vessels because we want you to test the buy/sell functionality and help us figure out if it's too easy to acquire ships or not". Why not take a page out of WoWs book - casual players can get in the game, jump in an LFR and get gear and sets. Sure, they aren't the best but it is an option for people that don't want to spend a huge amount of time on the game and be in a serious hardcore progression guild. Do the same thing here - make ships up to the Cutlass/Basic Freelancer and the different profession starters easily accessible to the majority. If people wanna go deeper and have ships that further specialize in certain tasks like the Reclaimer or the Starfarer - they by all means, make those rather expensive and something that you have to put time into. But common ships being a ridiculous grind to get? That seems like a perilous approach to take if you care about player retention and all that jazz.

But hey, gotta sell them 5$ UEC packs right...

And don't get me started on those rental prices that are on the PTU right NOW - hundreds of thousands for, again, very basic vessels... And you rent it for just 3 days. Yeah..no. And they haven't touched them since the Evocati phase. The moment I saw them when I first got in when testing started I was.. shocked to say the least. A normal sub grants you 20 000 REC. You need 140 000 plus for renting a Cutlass for three days.

And people are right to complain. The majority of us play games to transports ourselves to a make-believe world and have fun, not have a second job. If people don't voice their discontent now and just say "Whatever God Roberts says and does is a miracle and should not be criticized" then CIG will think - oh, they don't mind. Lets leave it like that.

If people didn't make a fuss about the online stream costing money you would have paid 10 dollars or more to watch a stream that was down quite a bit...

 

[Radegast74]

So there is no (edit linear) relation between "real world ship" prices and ingame ship prices.

I haven't plotted it, but I'm guessing it is closer to a logarithmic association...i.e., lower values are "larger" in relation to bigger values...if you plotted the log of the values, it would look approximately linear...

Here is a quickie plot...x axis is the ships, y axis is log (ln) price: (you can see a more linear relation now using the logs. Maybe the Prospector is above the line because it has specialized equipment, which makes it more valuable. Maybe Drake ships will be cheaper & below the line a little...)

 

[Radegast74]

A little low? If anything the prices for the starters are nothing short of retarded. I can understand the Hammerhead costing that much, given that it's not a solo ship, but an Aurora costs 220 000 UEC? A Mustang - 100 000 UEC? Those are very, very basic ships. It's the equivalent of a basic Toyota model, for example, costing as much as an S63 AMG. Yeah.. seems like a good deal. Those ships should be around the 50 000 mark, if that. What happens if you lose everything? I want to quickly be able to jump back in a ship and start playing again. Not be a maid on someones ship for a month before I can get an Aurora again... If someone wants to serve on other peoples ship - by all means, let them do it. But have the option NOT to for those that aren't that keen on the idea. And the Prospector, an entry level miner is 1.6 million UEC? So in order to get one, if you don't spend ANY of the money you make, which just isn't going to happen because you have costs to cover when doing those missions - fuel, landing fees, ammunition, repair and so on, you'd need to do 400 of those 4000 UEC missions with the number of needed mission increasing when you factor in those operational costs. Yeah..seems like fun. Doing the same couple of mission variations for 400+ times.. and that is, given how multiple people can compete for the same mission, if BigFatWalletWhale93 doesn't blow your ship up and mutilate you with his gold plated guns and vessel just because he can, as shown in the demo... Then it's back to the hospital, waiting for your ship to be remade.. And god forbid you actually installed anything on it but didn't have the insurance to cover it.. You have to grind that back too. People with just an Aurora, if those prices remain the same, are going to brand this game as a ridiculous grind and quit it faster than Roberts can say "diegetic fidelity" and make a sales pitch mid demo for his new ship. And if the Aurora is 200 000, I shudder to think how much an Avenger or a Cutlass will cost.

And yes, I do realize that, as Roberts said, their economy isn't in but why not show lower prices? Given that nothing is set in stone, why not make everything cheaper and then incrementally increase it if your metrics show that people are getting ships too easy. You know, like - "Hey folks, we've set lower prices on those vessels because we want you to test the buy/sell functionality and help us figure out if it's too easy to acquire ships or not". Why not take a page out of WoWs book - casual players can get in the game, jump in an LFR and get gear and sets. Sure, they aren't the best but it is an option for people that don't want to spend a huge amount of time on the game and be in a serious hardcore progression guild. Do the same thing here - make ships up to the Cutlass/Basic Freelancer and the different profession starters easily accessible to the majority. If people wanna go deeper and have ships that further specialize in certain tasks like the Reclaimer or the Starfarer - they by all means, make those rather expensive and something that you have to put time into. But common ships being a ridiculous grind to get? That seems like a perilous approach to take if you care about player retention and all that jazz.

But hey, gotta sell them 5$ UEC packs right...

And don't get me started on those rental prices that are on the PTU right NOW - hundreds of thousands for, again, very basic vessels... And you rent it for just 3 days. Yeah..no. And they haven't touched them since the Evocati phase. The moment I saw them when I first got in when testing started I was.. shocked to say the least. A normal sub grants you 20 000 REC. You need 140 000 plus for renting a Cutlass for three days.

And people are right to complain. The majority of us play games to transports ourselves to a make-believe world and have fun, not have a second job. If people don't voice their discontent now and just say "Whatever God Roberts says and does is a miracle and should not be criticized" then CIG will think - oh, they don't mind. Lets leave it like that.

If people didn't make a fuss about the online stream costing money you would have paid 10 dollars or more to watch a stream that was down quite a bit...

I realized this morning that the starter ships are more expensive than I thought. Using the "basic rifle" is close to UEC what a IRL rifle is in dollars, I would have expected an Aurora to cost like a Corolla (about UEC 20k) and a luxury ship to cost like a Mercedes (about UEC 50-80k).

That being said, even a basic fighter is about 30 million, an the stealth fighters today...as a taxpayer, let me just say, let's not talk about that.

With a basic frigate being about $200 million, yeah, the HH is cheap!

ALSO--> be aware...as a strategy, it is better for CIG to start high, and then bring the prices down. If they started low, and later made the prices higher, people would really shit.

EDIT: one more thing, having a high price for a starter ship like an Aurora obscures two things: i) everybody will already have a starter ship, so why buy another one? & ii) having a high price for an Aurora also means you get a lot more for it if you can trade it in when you buy a bigger ship. Conceiveably, 3 or 4 people could sell their starter ships and buy and man a Cutlass, and then make a killing (pun intended) with piracy.

 

[Arcturos]

I realized this morning that the starter ships are more expensive than I thought. Using the "basic rifle" is close to UEC what a IRL rifle is in dollars, I would have expected an Aurora to cost like a Corolla (about UEC 20k) and a luxury ship to cost like a Mercedes (about UEC 50-80k).

That being said, even a basic fighter is about 30 million, an the stealth fighters today...as a taxpayer, let me just say, let's not talk about that.

With a basic frigate being about $200 million, yeah, the HH is cheap!

ALSO--> be aware...as a strategy, it is better for CIG to start high, and then bring the prices down. If they started low, and later made the prices higher, people would really shit.

Why make things cost as much as their real life equivalent? It's an awful way to price things in a game. If Forza Horizon gave you a medium wage per race and you needed 200 000$ for a decent car... Oh, boy! The joy it would be to play that game.

I'm glad that we agree that starter ship prices are beyond retarded. I'd like to actually meet the people that set them, looked back and thought "Yep, this seems reasonable" and marvel at their.. "intelligence", but also point out how out of touch they must be.. Oh, and ask them what drugs are they on too.

And no, given CIGs track record of overpricing everything it would have been a nice change of pace for them to actually price something a bit lower. You know, just ONCE. Reasonable people will not bitch if things increased in price after being shown concrete evidence that that needs to happen. I assume that most of us want to play this game for years to come and not see everyone riding around in a Merchantman or Idris or whatever. But at the same time I rather doubt that people want to grind like mad for the most basic of ships.

Given what they did with weapon and component prices... I have my doubts that they will lower the cost of ships to a reasonable amount.

And don't get me started on the fact that we probably won't see every ship available for purchase either because "they don't a storefront on Hurston".. Yep, it's not like this is a video game or anything. And it's not like there are multistorey car dealerships(like the one Volkswagen has *cough* like this *cough*) that house every model a car manufacturer makes. That concept can't be applied in here, right? I mean, it's not like we have computer displays in game that you can use to purchase goods right which can then be delivered to a hangar, right? I mean, come on! How hard would it be, for the time being (until they get those vaunted shops and the planets they are on in-game) to offer you the ability to select every ship and then spawn it in a hangar for you...

 

[Bambooza]

There is a balance between time spent doing actions in the game and the reward given. And while the prices do seem interesting and arbitrary at the moment it is hard to judge given most of the features are not yet in the game and the only missions we have seen so far are tier 0 with what I fully expect is the lowest payout possible. And as @NaffNaffBobFace said the game community tends to reacts less negativity to something getting easier to acquire then harder. So why not base it upon real world finances for now and then tweek it as they get player mission data so that it falls into line with what time investment they expect?

 

[Radegast74]

Why make things cost as much as their real life equivalent? It's an awful way to price things in a game. If Forza Horizon gave you a medium wage per race and you needed 200 000$ for a decent car... Oh, boy! The joy it would be to play that game.

I'm glad that we agree that starter ship prices are beyond retarded. I'd like to actually meet the people that set them, looked back and thought "Yep, this seems reasonable" and marvel at their.. "intelligence", but also point out how out of touch they must be.. Oh, and ask them what drugs are they on too.

And no, given CIGs track record of overpricing everything it would have been a nice change of pace for them to actually price something a bit lower. You know, just ONCE. Reasonable people will not bitch if things increased in price after being shown concrete evidence that that needs to happen. I assume that most of us want to play this game for years to come and not see everyone riding around in a Merchantman or Idris or whatever. But at the same time I rather doubt that people want to grind like mad for the most basic of ships.

Given what they did with weapon and component prices... I have my doubts that they will lower the cost of ships to a reasonable amount.

And don't get me started on the fact that we probably won't see every ship available for purchase either because "they don't a storefront on Hurston".. Yep, it's not like this is a video game or anything. And it's not like there are multistorey car dealerships(like the one Volkswagen has *cough* like this *cough*) that house every model a car manufacturer makes. That concept can't be applied in here, right? I mean, it's not like we have computer displays in game that you can use to purchase goods right which can then be delivered to a hangar, right? I mean, come on! How hard would it be, for the time being (until they get those vaunted shops and the planets they are on in-game) to offer you the ability to select every ship and then spawn it in a hangar for you...

well, it isn't a game, so to speak, it is a "sim" and that is why CR would want some relation to price and reality.

I just edited my response above, one reason to maybe price starter ships high is so you can trade in your starter ship and get max UEC for it...I mean, why buy a second Aurora, when maybe 3 or 4 people can trade in their starter ships and get a Cutlass?

As far as "all ships available, everywhere, all the time" I think CR and CIG have made it clear that ain't gonna happen. Specifically, with different tech levels and different law levels, you will **have** to travel around the 'verse to get all the stuff you want and need. For example, all along they have made it clear that the Super Hornet we buy is the **Civilian** version, and has lesser weapons than the military version (that we can't buy). But, if I travel to some seedy places, maybe I can buy some military grade weapons & components, and get something close to the F7A.

I think that makes the "game" more like a real-life sim, and makes for more fun gameplay. Just my opinion, of course!

 

[Arcturos]

well, it isn't a game, so to speak, it is a "sim" and that is why CR would want some relation to price and reality.

I just edited my response above, one reason to maybe price starter ships high is so you can trade in your starter ship and get max UEC for it...I mean, why buy a second Aurora, when maybe 3 or 4 people can trade in their starter ships and get a Cutlass?

As far as "all ships available, everywhere, all the time" I think CR and CIG have made it clear that ain't gonna happen. Specifically, with different tech levels and different law levels, you will **have** to travel around the 'verse to get all the stuff you want and need. For example, all along they have made it clear that the Super Hornet we buy is the **Civilian** version, and has lesser weapons than the military version (that we can't buy). But, if I travel to some seedy places, maybe I can buy some military grade weapons & components, and get something close to the F7A.

I think that makes the "game" more like a real-life sim, and makes for more fun gameplay. Just my opinion, of course!

Oh, don't get me wrong I am on-board with having to go to a specific shop go get a certain ship. Seems rather ridiculous at this point though.. And more of a way to deny people the ability to buy every ship available in-game, as of now, and gently coerce them to, you know, spend a little moolah on them rather then grind it out in the game.

Also..A sim..One look at the flight model and that gets debunked rather quickly. But even if it is a sim it still has to gamify certain aspects in order to make it playable. I don't presume to know CR's target demographic but assuming that he wants this game to be successful it would have to appeal to a larger crowd rather than just the super hardcore, who won't mind the grind and will RP the shit out of everything. So making it accessible and not a grindfest of Korean MMO proportions is a must if he wants a broader audience for his product. It's part of the reason why WoW is so successful in my opinion - it appeals to different kinds of players - from the hardcore raiders to the casuals. Sure that can be a bad thing but its not what I am calling for here. Just a reasonable price on low to mid tier ships.

@Bambooza You are correct in stating that lowering prices after they are set too high is more positively received than the other way around, but given the negativity and controversy surrounding Star Citizen... I personally think setting outrageous prices for your in-game ships when you are also selling those for real money is getting on the highway to "This shit is P2Win" Town and driving on it at light speed no less. People are going to make mince meat of this and by the time they reduce them the damage would have been done.

I'm not screaming "Grab the pitchforks!" but rather voicing my concern. Here and in other outlets. Because in my opinion if people don't at least bring CIGs attention to this, they might assume that those prices are O.K. and leave them like that for the forseeable future.

 

[Bambooza]

Oh, don't get me wrong I am on-board with having to go to a specific shop go get a certain ship. Seems rather ridiculous at this point though.. And more of a way to deny people the ability to buy every ship available in-game, as of now, and gently coerce them to, you know, spend a little moolah on them rather then grind it out in the game.

Also..A sim..One look at the flight model and that gets debunked rather quickly. But even if it is a sim it still has to gamify certain aspects in order to make it playable. I don't presume to know CR's target demographic but assuming that he wants this game to be successful it would have to appeal to a larger crowd rather than just the super hardcore, who won't mind the grind and will RP the shit out of everything. So making it accessible and not a grindfest of Korean MMO proportions is a must if he wants a broader audience for his product. It's part of the reason why WoW is so successful in my opinion - it appeals to different kinds of players - from the hardcore raiders to the casuals. Sure that can be a bad thing but its not what I am calling for here. Just a reasonable price on low to mid tier ships.

@Bambooza You are correct in stating that lowering prices after they are set too high is more positively received than the other way around, but given the negativity and controversy surrounding Star Citizen... I personally think setting outrageous prices for your in-game ships when you are also selling those for real money is getting on the highway to "This shit is P2Win" Town and driving on it at light speed no less. People are going to make mince meat of this and by the time they reduce them the damage would have been done.

I'm not screaming "Grab the pitchforks!" but rather voicing my concern. Here and in other outlets. Because in my opinion if people don't at least bring CIGs attention to this, they might assume that those prices are O.K. and leave them like that for the forseeable future.

I do have to wonder if Star Citizen until it gets into beta will attract any more players or if its community is pretty well established at this point.

 

[Sirus7264]

Why make things cost as much as their real life equivalent? It's an awful way to price things in a game. If Forza Horizon gave you a medium wage per race and you needed 200 000$ for a decent car... Oh, boy! The joy it would be to play that game.

I'm glad that we agree that starter ship prices are beyond retarded. I'd like to actually meet the people that set them, looked back and thought "Yep, this seems reasonable" and marvel at their.. "intelligence", but also point out how out of touch they must be.. Oh, and ask them what drugs are they on too.

And no, given CIGs track record of overpricing everything it would have been a nice change of pace for them to actually price something a bit lower. You know, just ONCE. Reasonable people will not bitch if things increased in price after being shown concrete evidence that that needs to happen. I assume that most of us want to play this game for years to come and not see everyone riding around in a Merchantman or Idris or whatever. But at the same time I rather doubt that people want to grind like mad for the most basic of ships.

Given what they did with weapon and component prices... I have my doubts that they will lower the cost of ships to a reasonable amount.

And don't get me started on the fact that we probably won't see every ship available for purchase either because "they don't a storefront on Hurston".. Yep, it's not like this is a video game or anything. And it's not like there are multistorey car dealerships(like the one Volkswagen has *cough* like this *cough*) that house every model a car manufacturer makes. That concept can't be applied in here, right? I mean, it's not like we have computer displays in game that you can use to purchase goods right which can then be delivered to a hangar, right? I mean, come on! How hard would it be, for the time being (until they get those vaunted shops and the planets they are on in-game) to offer you the ability to select every ship and then spawn it in a hangar for you...

The prices seem fair to me if you get 4000 per mission and can buy that ship within a day it's completely fine. Also we have ship insurance which i'm sure that ship will come with standard once you buy it. lastly no one said that you would have to jump on someone else's ship to do something who's to say there will not be missions by mission givers which do not require ships such as drop ship missions for the UEEE or a private company or working on a luxury liner with a bar tender minigame. Or possibly maybe they will allow you later to rent a ship or something for a few days in game for a lower cost. I could see lots of ways around it.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

The prices seem fair to me if you get 4000 per mission and can buy that ship within a day it's completely fine. Also we have ship insurance which i'm sure that ship will come with standard once you buy it. lastly no one said that you would have to jump on someone else's ship to do something who's to say there will not be missions by mission givers which do not require ships such as drop ship missions for the UEEE or a private company or working on a luxury liner with a bar tender minigame. Or possibly maybe they will allow you later to rent a ship or something for a few days in game for a lower cost. I could see lots of ways around it.

Considering the size of planets and the fact that at least one planet is going to be totally covered in city and have a mass transit system, I would not be surprised if there was a hardcore game mode where you start off as a courier on foot which I might expect even be a free-to-play package to entice people into the game at some point if that's required.

Once you'd done enough Carry-Missions you'd be able to afford a Dragonfly to do cycle courier in cities, rural and low-orbit if you can hire a ship to carry you and your ride up there, and once you'd been able to do enough of that you'd be able to afford an Aurora and be at the same starting point as everyone else with a $35 starter package.

I wouldn't be shocked if it eventually turns out there is a games worth of content per majorly populated planet, perhaps only one a system, likely less than that considering how many majorly populated systems there will be in the end (Sol, Terra, where else? Not Tyrol... Not Cathcart...)

I love theorycraft. I wonder what we'll get in the end.